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Old 07-12-2002, 07:19 PM   #41
Gimli Son Of Gloin
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lol.<BR>My dos centavos- Harry Potter es muy stupedo!
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Old 07-12-2002, 08:15 PM   #42
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Sorry Briniel that I have the same arguments as you, I had not noticed your post before now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's alright, Daniel. Though your argument was for the same things, you brought up some different reasons also, which means that HP and LOTR are nothing alike if we can think of that many.<P>I agree with *Varda*. This subject does need to be dropped. Now that you know that HP and LOTR are completely different books, stop complaining about how much you dislike HP on an LOTR site. That doesn't belong here!<p>[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: Brinniel ]
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Old 07-12-2002, 08:23 PM   #43
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Good point...
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Old 07-14-2002, 02:01 PM   #44
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before it is dropped, i must get out one thought<BR>why can't we all get along? sure they are different, but think of what could happen if they joined forces...<BR> <p>[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumberTen ]
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Old 07-14-2002, 11:30 PM   #45
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LOL! Hehe! I love that pic! I can't stop laughing! I've heard of many stories where Frodo and Sam land at Hogwarts or vice versa.
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Old 07-18-2002, 10:52 AM   #46
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personally, I think it would be an insult to LOTR to think that harry potter was at all like it. I have never read the books, but most of my friends tell me they were dissappointing. <P>here is the material difference between the two: LOTR is Christian undertone/fantasy. HP is witchcraft overtone/fantasy.<P>both are religions<BR><BR>here's the problem:<BR>in America now, there is supposed to be no religion in school. well, if that is the case, and HP represents the religion (for so it was called by the supreme court) of witchcraft... how come HP is allowed in schools, but the Bible isn't?
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Old 07-18-2002, 10:56 AM   #47
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oh and by the way, I love that poster... it's absolutely hilarious!
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Old 07-18-2002, 10:59 AM   #48
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Most people who have debated about HP here know my oppinion. It hasn't changed, Amen MallornLeaf and Gimli Son of Gloin on this subject, The two books are just pictures of Books that have class and those that dont.Anyway, I dont want to infuriate people like last time. Or mayde I do.
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Old 07-18-2002, 11:01 AM   #49
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That is a Hilarios poster, But doesn't Haldir die in the next movie? wouldn't that create a problem for the next HP movies?
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Old 07-18-2002, 11:04 AM   #50
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I'm going to get a migraine if I beat my head against the wall much harder.<P>Harry Potter is <B>NOT</B> about the corruption of youth with ideas of witch craft. I am so sick and tired of people screaming about it! I happen to be a Christian. I happen to have read Harry Potter. I happen to <B>like</B> it! There is very little about Harry Potter that does not fit into the realm of traditional fantasy writing. It's in a different setting than a lot of fantasy books, but it is still typical fantasy. The only dark magic that appears in the Harry Potter books is presented as evil and wrong, and it is perpetrated by a villain about as sympathetic as Sauron. Honestly, how many people really want to emulate Sauron? Most of the other spells and charms that appear in the books are similar to tricks that Gandalf uses. Gandalf lights up his staff when they go through Moria; Harry lights the tip of his wand when going through a dark passageway. How is Gandalf Christian-undertoned and Harry witchcraft-overtoned?<BR>At the risk of making a deplorably bad pun, the anti-Harry Potter craze is a witch hunt, nothing more or less. It's a drumhead, mostly masterminded by people who can't talk because they haven't read the books.<P>Sorry for the rant. Literature is a pressure point for me--particularly fantasy literature.
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Old 07-18-2002, 11:17 AM   #51
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Lord of the Rings isn't meant to have Christian undertones. Tolkien seriously disliked the use of allegory. Sure, probably some of his religion worked it's way into his writing but to say it has Christian undertones I don't think is true. Moral undertones yes.<P>As for Harry Potter, a few of you already know my opinion on this - so I won't go into detail. Just stop saying it's awful if you haven't read it. Don't compare Harry Potter and LotR - they're two completely separate literary works. I don't know what posessed someone to compare the two in the first place, they're totally different.<P>~*Varda Elentari*~
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Old 07-18-2002, 11:18 AM   #52
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I've gotta reply to that. Harry Potter uses the Cult, No matter what you want to believe, I does. Give me a break, lighting up the want that is lame, that is like saying smoking a candy cigarrete and smoking a real one are the same. Tolkien did not study the cult to write his books. No matter what you will believe Rowling did. Well it is straying from Tolkien a little to much here, so I leave it at that.
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Old 07-18-2002, 11:24 AM   #53
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Not dissing, just curious for my own education: Can you name for me a documented source in which J.K. Rowling actually says she studied the Occult for the writing of the Harry Potter books?<P>And, still on that topic: I cannot say that she did or did not; all I know is what I've read in those books, and the books present anything that could be taken as Occultic in nature as evil and not to be emulated.<p>[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Emni Windrunner ]
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Old 07-18-2002, 11:29 AM   #54
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Good question Emni. I'd really like to know actually for my own knowledge.<P>Also, if you're just going to repeat the same continuous anti-HP arguments (not naming anyone, just in general - it goes for the pro-HP too) can we just drop it? The anti-HPers aren't going to change their minds anytime soon (unless they actually read the book perhaps) and the pro-HPers aren't either. No one's going to get converted.<P>Also to point out and remind people this is a LotR site. If you're going to argue the merits of Harry Potter try and work LotR into the discussion somewhere or BW will undoubtedly close the thread. Trust me. (speaking from experience here...)<P>~*VArda Elentari*~
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Old 07-18-2002, 04:30 PM   #55
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*bangs head against the desk again, and again, and again, exasperated that this topic will never end*
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Old 07-18-2002, 08:13 PM   #56
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Just for the record, I have not strayed from LOTR. On my last post, I compared the two, and plan to do the same. <P>weather you like it or not, Tolkein was a catholic. he beleived in the Bible. Also, I agree, LOTR was not an allegory, JRRT hated allegories. It was not a direct adaption or allegory of the Bible or any Bible story, but it WAS meant to have christian worldviews. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It does not have Christian Undertones, just morals<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>DUH! what do you think I mean by undertones? unertones come from morals. So... it would be reasonable to beleive that If the Morals are Christain and undertones come from morals, then the undertones would also be christian. (what has happened to common sense these days?)<P>Also, HP is deffinately witchcraft. Can you honestly tell me that they don't quote any spells in HP? last time I checked, however, LOTR has no recited spells. Unless you have seen children beating on doors screaming "Mellon! Mellon!" (the only "spell" in LOTR) then it is safe to say that LOTR does not use witchcraft.<P>I realize that I cannot argue completely b/c I have never read the books. I WOULD read the books if I was interested. I'm not opposed to the books in general. I am opposed to what they teach. I am opposed to the fact schools distribute them as excellent books, yet students can't be seen with their Bible. . . that would be "discrimination" to have a Bible in School! <P>NO!!!!! Discrimination is teaching HP and persecuting the Bible. <P>Varda said that the only way I would change my opinion is if I read the books. But my opinion deals with more than the books themselves. My opinion is only strong because of the Morals involved--not the books.
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Old 07-18-2002, 08:56 PM   #57
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I have noticed that you guys are the ones straying, not me or MallornLeaf. If real cult is in HP, and real witchcraft, How could Rowling have got without studying it. How much blunter do you need it? Do I have to spell it out for you? wait a minute-<BR>Allegories are like C.S. Lewis's cronicals The death of Aslon the lion= the crusifiction. Tolkiens LOTR gives good examples of good morals, I have heard fans of HP say that HP is about a boy that gets mixed up in all this magic stuff.<P>What does Harry Potter Teach kids anyway? loyalty? hah right, theres just a thirteen year girl murdering people and being posessed(which has to do with cult megatime)by Valdemorte. There is cult in HP, Possesion, shape changing, spells, blood sucking, need I say more? Well I'll go now, I know you guys wont listen to it anyway. i dont have to read the books to know of some of the evil stuff in HP. By the way, if no cult is used in HP why on fan websites is there real books on cult, and witchcraft. TTYL
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Old 07-18-2002, 09:24 PM   #58
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I think she got some ideas from LOTR, when i see HP previews i dont see Dumbledore talking to Harry i see Gandalf talking to Frodo, it gets annoying sometimes
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Old 07-19-2002, 10:02 AM   #59
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*bangs head against the wall like Emni and Nufaciel*<P>GIVE ME A BREAK ALREADY!
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Old 07-19-2002, 11:30 AM   #60
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As many have already noted The Lord Of The Rings and Harry Potter are two very different books, Good ole JRR set out to write a ledgend a fictional history of the Earth, And i believe( correct me if i'm wrong) That Harry Potter started out as a bed-time story for Ms. Rowling's children. It's like comparing the <I>Discover Spot</I> books or even <I>Winne The Pooh</I>with say...***looks at book shelf*** <I>The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy</I> or <I>The Amber Spy Glass</I>even. I'm sure i Ms. Rowling wanted to write a <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>great, deep pool of image and thought <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>(great Way to Explain it! ) She could. She's most likly A better author than Any of you, And i would like to see you write a book that has touched so many children's (an adult's) hearts.<P>As for Harry Potter in school, If it gets the kids to read what is the big problem? If they like Harry Potter maybe they'll start to read other longer books. I think Alot of people have under estimated children's common sense. They're not that Impressionable/ Gullible what ever you want to call it. Just because when Harry says <I>Luminous</I> or whatever he can make a stick light up doesn't mean that if you or I say it it'll happen. kids know that. They know Hogwarts isn't real, They know that God is good and the Devil is bad. I seriously doubt many ten year olds are going to join the occult after reading Harry Potter. and you can't say that i don't know what i'm talking about because <B>I</B>read Harry Potter when i was ten and it certainly didn't do anything bad to me. <P>Harry Potter is allowed in school because it is a piece of fictional writing. You don't have to study the occult to make up Latin sounding words that make things float. Any one can do that. I'm pretty sure that no Wiccans use floo powder to get from place to place. <BR>I agree that religeion should be kept out of schools but in my humble opinion Harry Potter and The Worst Wicth ect. are not religion.<BR>(wouldn't the first part of the silmarillion be considered religous considering arda represents earth?)<BR>I'm going to shut up now and never type so much again
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Old 07-19-2002, 01:14 PM   #61
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I am not trying to draw a comparison between LOTR and HP. I am not trying to scream about HP at the expense of a discussion of LOTR. What I am trying to do is to say that people should not talk who have not read the books--HP or LOTR. I know people who won't read LOTR or go to see it in the theater because of the Nazgul, who look Satanic and damaging to the psyche, apparently. I do not have a problem with seeing the movie or reading the books because evil is real, and the Nazgul are a great representation of evil--nothing good, nothing appealing except raw power and cruelty (if that appeals to you).<BR>By the same token (Note: I am not comparing the works; I am comparing some portrayals in the works), HP shows evil for what it is. The Dementors, the Death Eaters, Voldemort...none of them look good, appealing, or like anything any sane person would want to emulate. Like LOTR, HP has a heavy infusion of so-called "Judeo-Christian" morals. There is right and wrong, and in the end, there is no middle ground.<P>PS Please also note: there is a difference between <B>a cult</B> and <B>the Occult</B>. A cult is a religious group that has extreme and bizarre practices and beliefs. The Occult is Satanic practice. ~EW~<P>PPS I did not put any time into studying the Occult beyond reading the newspaper when there has been Satanic activity discovered and watching a documentary on Sean Sellers, and I could have told you everything Rowling covers in her books. That doesn't make either her or me Satanists or involved in the Occult; it makes us both observant. ~EW~<P>PPPS Ginny Weasley was eleven, not thirteen, and she opened herself up to influence and possession--and she was most certainly influenced and, at times, possessed. This is a Biblical principle, which is why God states unequivocally in Leviticus that the people should have nothing to do with spiritism or mediums, which open them up to influence. Again, nothing you have to be a Satanist to know. ~EW~
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Old 07-19-2002, 04:36 PM   #62
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This should not be a discussion on whether Harry Potter is good or bad. That's personal opinion. We could argue about it for hours but no one's going to change their opinion.<P>I must admit, I'm quite interested by the fact that no one's actually produced a quote stating that Rowling studied the Occult yet. Just goes to show widely held belief is not necessarily proven or true.
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Old 07-19-2002, 10:32 PM   #63
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Again, this all boils down to the same thing: we all have different beleifs. My purpose in writing anything in this forum is not to jam Christianity into your face. it is, rather, to let you know what I beleive and why I beleive it. <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And I would like to see any of you write a book that has touched so many Children's (and adult's) hearts<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>There is a small amount of good and a large amount of bad to this statement. It is good that Children are reading. It is good that children are being educated by literature. I must admit, that is my favorite form of study--literature. While it is true, I beleive, that not all 10 year olds, after reading HP, Will go around trying to fly on broomsticks, some will get the idea that it is possible. Unfortunately, it IS possible. Through the Occult and mediums (that beleive me, are real) such things can be done. In the Bible, Saul went to a "witch" and communicated with a deceased Samuel. That's why this is dangerous. It IS real. It IS a religion. <BR><BR>Now this is a free country. Freedom of Religion. But here's what I don't understand: <P>Even parents nowadays can't always teach their children the Bible b/c that would be "harming the child's right to choose his/her own religion." So the Bible is kicked out of school b/c there is supposed to be "separation of church and state." the Occult is a form of church. Why is that allowed in schools? Shouldn't there be a separation of church and state? no--not when it comes to THIS church! wouldn't we be harming a child's right to choose his/her own religion? No--not when it comes to THIS religion!<BR><BR>Do you see what I'm getting at? Christianity is the only religion being smothered. people are scared of it. do you want to know why? do you want to know why YOU are scared of it? It's because in your heart of hearts you know it's real. It's a "threat" to your beleifs, b/c unlike yours, its real. There is a Real God... a Real hope. But people don't want to be accountable to a higher being. They want to be their own gods. so they twist things around to make it fit their lifestyles. But that doesn't help. they continue searching, but unless they turn to God, they'll always be searching. <P>These are all signs that the end is near. I'm afraid for all the people on this website who think that nothing is wrong. The end is coming. Where will YOU spend eternity?<p>[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: MallornLeaf ]
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Old 07-19-2002, 10:58 PM   #64
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I will have to admit I loved Harry Potter until about two years ago. Then I read LotR trilogy. And has any one noticed that Rowling's Womping Willow is just like Tolkien's Old man Willow. Rowling totally stole half of Tolkien's ideas.
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Old 07-20-2002, 06:29 AM   #65
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The point is, Mallorn Leaf, that Harry Potter is NOT about the Occult. The 'spells' in Harry Potter are absolutely nothing like what Occult stuff would be like. I don't know how many times I can stress that enough. Yet you're never going to realise that so it's useless.<P>May i point out that Lord Of the rings ALSO has spells involved?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>FotR - A Journey in the Dark<P>Used to set things on fire.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen! Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>FotR - A Journey in the Dark<P>Trying to open the door.<P>So is that so different from Harry saying 'Alohomora' to open the door? 'Ah' but you'll say. 'Rowling used the Occult when she was writing Harry Potter'. <B>Well she didn't</B> They're latin words. All there is to it. It's hardly related to the Occult. The language we speak comes from Latin. <P>The day someone produces a quote stating Rowling studied the Occult is the day I'll think about believing it. But no such quote has actually appeared. <P>Now, if this is an argument about which book is better, I think Lord Of The Rings. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy Harry Potter as well. Reading Harry Potter won't send me to hell, and if it does then do I want my God to be my God? But that's not really a subject on this forum. <P>The other (and final) point. You can seriously annoy people by saying you're afraid for their souls etc. when you don't even know them at all. So I would advise not saying that.
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Old 07-20-2002, 09:20 AM   #66
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I would really wish people would close this topic, but I still have a thing to say:<BR>MallornLeaf, you make it sound as if somebody believed in and worshipped(sp?) HP in the same way as the bible. None of you are getting further, except making people even more convinced of what they think!
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Old 07-20-2002, 09:33 AM   #67
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Melephelwen: I agree with you too.<BR>I used to read Harry Potter before and i saw the movie. It was really boring. And when i saw LOTR, I thought....the Harry Potter movie shouldne't even be compared to LOTR AT ALL.<BR>Anyway, everybody has their own opinions and soon the BW will close down this thread.
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Old 07-21-2002, 08:26 AM   #68
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This thread is comparing HP to LotR, so its a topic that has a place on the Downs. The only way I'd close it is if it got completely off-topic or became a flame war. I haven't read most of it, so I don't know if its getting ugly or not. But unless it does, I have no plans of shutting it down.<P>Discuss nicely, and please post support of your argument rather than simple sentimental statements (i.e. 'HP stinks'). <P>Discuss, discuss, discuss.... but never discount without support!
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Old 07-21-2002, 09:21 AM   #69
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I think some things are similar between LOTR and Harry Potter, but have any of you read Dragonlance? I'm reading the Chronicles now, and I am seeing SO many similarities. There is a large group going off and doing things, dwarves, elves, draconiens,(like orcs) and they even have a forest thats haunted by the dead, and its just like the Paths of the Dead. There are many more but I just don't want to list them now.
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Old 07-21-2002, 09:24 AM   #70
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Most of my thoughts on this were represented earlier in this thread, but i had a new thought reading this:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Harry Potter is NOT about the corruption of youth with ideas of witch craft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well said. Has NO-ONE here ever read the 'Worst Witch' books? or seen the dramatisation? They are stories of a witches boarding school (you can see elements of this in HP as well). I loved these books, and there were spells and broomsticks and familiars in those. I've NEVER heard even a worry that these books have influenced a child to an interest in the Occult. So why should HP be so different?<P>OK, hopefully that was my last 2 cents on this thread
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Old 07-21-2002, 11:44 AM   #71
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I, personally, have been exposed to spells and witchcraft in literature, books, and movies ever since I've been little. But does that mean I'm part of the occult? NO! I'm Christian, I believe in God. I just enjoy reading things about magic. I think it has high entertainment value. It's even part of Arthurian legend--Merlin, anyone? J.K. Rowling simply used her knowledge of Latin, which is perfectly reasonable, to create a story, NOT to promote witchcraft. <P>Hopefully I won't have to be in this thread anymore after this. Can't we all just drop the subject anyway? I've been in at least three threads like this already, and it's getting old.
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Old 07-22-2002, 03:29 PM   #72
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Why do people say there is no evidence to the occult in HP. There is sucking the blood of an animal, which is in satanic occults, Possesion has to do with the occult greatly, curses, and spells, these all have to do with the occult, and if I read the books Im sure I could find many more.<P>In LOTR, Tolkien does not base his books on witchcraft or the occult, and if HP doesn't what is it about? HP has many different types of occult and witchcraft in it. Tolkien may say some words in elvish but rarely you find out what they mean. Plus they are not used to murder.
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Old 07-22-2002, 03:59 PM   #73
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I think in likening Potter and LOTR to Rivendell and Lorien, you are giving Potter more credit than it deserves. I would not accuse Rowling of stealing ideas, since Tolkien was not completely original either (and if you want to see a case for plagiarism, read The Sword of Shannara), but I would certainly not put Potter on so close a level with LOTR. <P>Here’s my idea – and mayhap only a “hobbit-like” thinker will see validity in it…. <P>Comparing Potter to LOTR is like comparing a Burger King meal to a four course dinner at The Four Seasons. Sure, the Whopper and fries are quite yummy for a quick bite, but you don’t know what you’re missing until you’ve savored white truffle risotto, lobster bisque, and filet mignon, topped off with tiramisu and espresso.<P>Whoa.... I didn't realize this thread had a "page 2". It looks like the subject has degenerated to a "Potter is evil" level.<p>[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Sweatpea Knotwise ]
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:07 PM   #74
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I've never read or seen Harry Potter, and I don't want to. To me it looks nothing like LotR or anything that I would like for that matter. So I would definetly choose LotR over HP.
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:16 PM   #75
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Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.<BR>
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:23 PM   #76
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I never much liked Harry Potter...and yes, some of the things are quite obvious that were copied. Well, most of fantasy is alike. And you all know that Tolkien was the first one to really write fantasy, right?
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:32 PM   #77
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mmmust kill...dorky wizard...musttt kill...<BR>lets face it, this topic will never end, there will always be a debate.
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Old 07-23-2002, 04:02 AM   #78
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Mornie, give me a quote where Rowling says she studied the Occult and I might have more respect for what you think. Please stop endlessly repeating what you say and come up with some more convincing, detailed arguments. If you feel so strongly that you're right, it shouldn't be difficult.
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Old 07-23-2002, 04:28 AM   #79
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*Varda* already said it, but Mornie: if you're so convinced come up with some arguments you haven't already said a billion times!
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Old 07-23-2002, 05:01 AM   #80
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It would be nice if people stoped going around in circles. The same people want to continue an argument that was started in a previous thread, That tread was stoped for which I was very pleased, maybe it is time to stop this one before it degrades into name calling. Also what has religion got to do with the original topic?
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