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05-21-2012, 07:37 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Hobbit2 - Chapter 03 - A Short Rest
There's no adventure in this chapter, though Tolkien does make the search for Rivendell slightly suspenseful. However, the deciphering of the runes and maps lays the groundwork for the success of the quest. This episode also raises one question of major importance: Just what do elves smell like?!
Would you like to have visited Rivendell with the dwarves and Bilbo? What impresses you most, what don't you like about it? (Here's the previous discussion, for those interested.)
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05-21-2012, 07:56 AM | #2 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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The Elves are a mean bunch! To make fun of tired road-weary travellers! And Bilbo - mind you don't eat all the cakes! (It isn't very nice, but I love that part for its silliness). The moon-letters seem to be made of ithildin, like the inscription on the Gates of Moria, but much cleverer. The map is made by Thror, but it is not clear whether he made it before or after the capture of the Mountain. Either way, the Dwarves' skills might not have dwindeled as much as we are lead to believe! As for the upcomming movie, I think this chapter merits a good 10 seconds of it. And PJ will have the above-mentioned passage to justify this.
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05-21-2012, 01:51 PM | #3 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Well, I would have to assume they have a pleasant scent. Because, as everyone knows, the Elves are too noble to fart.
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05-22-2012, 01:42 PM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Tolkien writes:
In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.This is puzzling for any stage of Tolkien’s pseudo-history. Elrond was originally the sole ancestor of such persons rather than just their chief. It does feel like Tolkien conceives this Elrond as one of the descendants of the original Elrond and the chieftain of a household of half-elven folk. In The Fellowship of the Ring there is only one Elrond who has two sons and a daughter. This Elrond is of course the chief of these four people, including himself, but it seems to me odd to describe these four people as “some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors”, especially as Tolkien has since invented Elrond’s brother Elros who is the ancestor of the royal house of the Númenóreans. However at this point in Tolkien’s elvish history as he then saw it, the line of chieftains of the descendants of Isildur had fallen into temporary abeyance following the death of Arathorn and the minority of Aragorn who was being fostered by Elrond. Perhaps Elrond had also taken over, during this period, the position of active chieftain of the Rangers of the North until Aragorn came of age. Or it might be that Bilbo, at that time, is to be imagined as not keeping straight the distinction between the Rangers, who were mostly “some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors”, and the children of Elrond who are also “some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors” and of whom the two sons also served as Rangers. This chapter is extraordinarily clear and pleasant from the precise description of the land between the ford and Rivendell to the end of the chapter. The first appearance of elves in perfectly imagined. We never actually see the elves, although Bilbo does, but we hear them and—in one of Tolkien’s points of genius—smell them. The elvish song is sometimes on the verge of being insulting, but its frivolousness and its clear welcome to the weary travellers should take any edge from the jesting. Thorin is just a sourpuss. |
05-22-2012, 03:46 PM | #5 | |||
Dead Serious
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Regarding the race of whom Elrond "was the chief," a few statements by Aragorn in Lord of the Rings have always seemed pertinent to me here (written, though they were, after the fact--at least, I assume so... I am actually not sure what edition of The Hobbit this statement about Elrond belongs to):
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This later passage illumines the earlier ones from "Flight to the Ford," as it becomes clear that the "few" with the skill to battle the ailments of the Enemy are a race of people--the hands of the king are the hands of a healer and thus shall the rightful king be known. It is significant that Gandalf, far more powerful though he is than Aragorn, is not the one who cures the Black Breath. Nor is it a red herring that the reference to "our race" here is aimed more at descendents of Lúthien (and thus of the Maiar) than of having "Elves and heroes of the North" for ancestors, since the mixed blood of Elves and heroes of the North (the Edain) only descended together through the children of Eärendil and Elwing, who were thus all descended from Lúthien. It is quite easy to read this passage from The Hobbit in that light, making "chief" the equivalent of "eldest." What is more, as jallanite's post suggests, the Dúnedain of the North were closely bound to the people of Elrond by this time. Elrond had the keeping of the Heirlooms of Isildur, including the Sceptre of Annúminas, which he hands over to Aragorn at Minas Tirith, and he fosters the Heirs of Isildur in his own house. Indeed, it is also worth noting--though it's more trivia than intended surely, as far as this passage goes--that Aragorn and his mother Gilraen (herself a descendent of the Arnorian kings) were both in residence in Rivendell when Bilbo passed through. I mention Gilraen particularly, because I suspect that her case (that of belonging to a cadet branch of the House of Elendil) was probably typical of the Dúnedain of the North--even if it were not universal, their population must have dwindled to the point where having the blood of "our race" was more common than not. I don't think there's any need to make a case for Elrond being the interim chieftain of the Dúnedain to explain this passage however--"chief" does not only denote "chieftain" but also simply means "foremost," and I doubt that anyone would argue that Elrond was the foremost member of this "race," regardless of whatever formal status he had. All of which is a lot of extracted thought from The Lord of the Rings on a fairly minor point in the text of The Hobbit, but it shows a compatibility between the texts--even if it was written before the The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived. And, if so, it demonstrates I guess the consistency of artistic vision that Tolkien possessed.
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Last edited by Formendacil; 05-22-2012 at 03:48 PM. Reason: Clarification on the whole point of this, really... |
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05-22-2012, 03:51 PM | #6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Of course, the elves in this chapter do seem rather like JRRT's early imaginings of elves (as contrasted to the elves later in TH in Mirkwood and the Battle of Five Armies).
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The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.' |
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05-22-2012, 08:41 PM | #7 |
Cryptic Aura
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if the tra la la lally song is omitted, although there is some potential in the elves' treatment of the dwarves for a bit of PJ's sense of humour to be developed.
Given the importance of Rivendell in the first movie, would it do to rush too quickly by it in TH movie?
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05-22-2012, 09:01 PM | #8 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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The sad thing is, I'm half serious.
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05-23-2012, 06:59 AM | #9 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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When Tolkien originally wrote this sentence he had not yet, so far as can be told, invented Elros and his descendants. If one is taking The Lord of the Rings into account, Elrond was never the actual chief of any of the people descended from Elros, so far as Tolkien indicates, unless the reader assumes an interim chieftainship when Elrond had undertaken the position of foster-father to Aragorn who was the future chief of the Dúnedain of the North by heredity. Or one might take chief to be used loosely to mean not the actual ruling chief but a person of great authority and power among the Dúnedain of the North. Tolkien never indicates who was the actual chief of the Dúnedain of the North during Aragorn’s minority. The passage I cite from The Hobbit suggests it was Elrond, but no more than suggests it. |
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05-23-2012, 09:20 AM | #10 | ||||
Dead Serious
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Good to know--I have no resources before the 1st Edition.
It doesn't really add anything to the discussion, but I find it interesting, and for the sake of completeness, let me add the original draft: Quote:
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This passage in The Hobbit does, I agree, suggest that Elrond was a formal chief, but if we read it with a hermeneutic of consistency with The Lord of the Rings, the evidence--as I read it--is against any such formality. More than any other reason, I would argue that you can't equate the Dúnedain of the North with half-Elves, even though I make the connection that many of them, in fact, had dilute Elven blood. It is an informal group of people to whom Elrond is their chief--and thus this line seems to be slender evidence for him possessing a formal leadership over another, not-quite-contiguous, group.
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05-23-2012, 11:46 AM | #11 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Both here and in the published text the term appears to refer to what readers later call "half-elven", those who share the blood of both elf and men. Yet in LotR, the term is used to describe Frodo, who is all hobbit, the erratic Tooks still being recognised as hobbits. Both Glorfindel and Goldberry claim they can see that Frodo is an "elf-friend". The Legendarium has the figures of Eriol and Aelfwine who have a role in the transmission of Elvish stories and traditions to mankind; they are referred to by Scull and Hammond as "transmitters" (although their Reader's Guide has no entry for elf-friend). Christopher Tolkien refers to them as mere transmitters as well. But they, like Frodo, lack elven blood. Verlyn Fleiger's study of "elf-friend" in Tolkien's Legendarium discusses these liminal characters but I don't have a copy of the essay at hand so I can't say if she references this use in TH. What she concludes about the elf-friend characters is that they are connectors or mediators between the world of fairie and the world of men, those who can connect with myth via imagination. But I can't recall if she addresses any point that an elf-friend could in fact have elven blood. So did Tolkien change his use of "elf-friend" or can it be made consistent with the later references?
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 05-23-2012 at 12:28 PM. Reason: codes! added smilie |
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05-23-2012, 02:00 PM | #12 | ||||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Ratliff notes that Elrond was not even necessarily an immortal in those days and not considered an elf. Ratliff writes in part: … and the very presence of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside ‘to see the elves’ dance and sing) and seems not to have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long-lived at this point, argues against a long gap in time between Gondolin’s fall and Mr. Baggins’ adventure. … By that scheme, Mr. Baggins’ unexpected party would have occurred no more than 14 years after the fall of Thangorodrim, which is clearly exceedingly improbable. These difficulties probably led to Tolkien’s deletion of the references to Beren and Lúthien’s adventure, which together with Elrond’s undefined status and nature enable Gondolin and its ruin to recede into the distant, legendary past.Quoting all that Ratliff says on this matter would be overkill. You can look it up yourself. Quote:
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My claim, such as it is, is only that it that it is possible that Elrond was interim chief, not that Elrond actually was interim chief. Quote:
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I never claimed that Elrond was an interim chief since Tolkien does not say and what Tolkien says goes. You appear to be claiming that Elrond could not have been an interim chief, but can provide no evidence. I also claimed that possibly Elrond’s status as chief of “some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors” was a partial error on Bilbo’s part, the kind of explanation that Tolkien sometimes uses to cover similar problems. I do not have any single explanation within The Lord of the Rings which clearly covers Tolkien’s statement: In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief. Last edited by jallanite; 05-23-2012 at 02:05 PM. |
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05-23-2012, 05:58 PM | #13 | |||||||
Laconic Loreman
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At least, that's how I read "contextual relationship" to mean, context in LOTR establishes a type of relationship between Elrond and Aragorn (and thus the Dunedain). Quote:
Chieftain always refers to a leader of a clan/tribe. This is in fact the way Tolkien uses the word with the Dunedain. Chieftain of the Dunedain (or Chieftain of the North) is a formal position and title given to the heirs of Isildur. First it's the Kings of Arnor, then Kings of Arthedain. From Aranarth to Aragorn, the formal leader can not be called "king" or "prince" anymore for there is no more kingdom. The Dunedain are a de-populated group of survivors living in a wild land, thus Chieftain is most apt for the formal leader of the Dunedain remnant. And from the evidence given in the Appendices, Tolkien treats Chieftain as a formal position, used as a leadership title strictly referring to the heirs of Isildur. By law, Aragorn (no matter his age) is the next Chieftain after Arathorn II. Elrond, not being an heir of Isildur, could not take the title of Chieftain of the Dunedain, even on an interim basis (nor does Tolkien ever refer to Elrond by this title). So, why refer to Elrond as " their chief?" Chief can be a shortened word for chieftain, but this is not always so. Historically, when chieftain is shortened to chief, it refers to the leader of Native American tribes. So, Form is correct in saying to use "chief" he would either associate the word to a Native American tribe, or to Lotho, who is informally called "the chief" when Saruman controls the Shire. Chief could easily refer to foremost, principal, main...as if one would say "chief city." And in this way, I agree with Form, calling Elrond "chief" could be a courtesy title given to Elrond. Since he did in fact have an established relationship with Aragorn and the Dunedain, he would be a sought after person by them. As a courtesy, the casual "chief" (to mean foremost/principal/eldest) makes the most sense to me. Quote:
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Last edited by Boromir88; 05-23-2012 at 08:05 PM. |
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05-23-2012, 10:59 PM | #14 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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To me the problem is that a statement by Tolkien in The Hobbit does not fit well with other statements in The Lord of the Rings. Assuming that the works are to be looked on as coherent, can they be somehow reconciled? I provided two possible explanations. You have provided another. |
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05-24-2012, 06:16 AM | #15 | |||||
Laconic Loreman
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In this case, Elrond being called chief in A Short Rest, correct me if any of these statements about your posts are inaccurate: 1) Elrond being called chief (of "some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors") is slender evidence of Elrond being an interim Chieftain during Aragorn's minority years. And you have not made any claim that this is the only explanation. or 2) Bilbo didn't correctly distinguish between the Dunedain and Elrond and his chilren. Now the way that I'm coming at this is... With 1, it is slender evidence based on Elrond being called "their chief." And in fact, saying this reference to "chief" means Elrond could have been an interim Chieftain, is an assumption based on the text. In my opinion, 1 looks an unlikely option. With 2, personally, saying a character mixed something up/recorded incorrectly at every moment of confusion, or conflict, is a cop out excuse. Obviously, anyone can disagree with me about this, but I don't like using the argument in #2 unless there is no other possible conclusion. However, with 1 feeling unlikely to me, and 2 only being a general option when nothing else makes sense to me, what is another explanation? I believe this was the purpose of Form's posts, to use the context of Elrond's relationship with the Dunedain and offer another interpretation to why he's called "their chief." I should be clear, that this is also my position, "chief" being an informal courtesy to highlight Elrond's relationship with the rangers. You are correct that there is no explicit statement for this interpration, but that does eqaute to having no evidence for my interpretation. Quote:
Now, the evidence I speak of, mostly comes out of looking in the Appendix and interpretting the way Tolkien uses "Chieftain." Chieftain is used strictly as the formal head of the Dunedain, and it's only specified to the heirs of Isildur. When Arnor broke up, the heirs can no longer have the position "King of Arnor," thus we get to the King of Arthedain. Once the Kingdom of Arthedain is destroyed, the heirs of Isildur need a new formal title of leadership (since they are still the legal heads of the Dunedain), for that Tolkien comes up with Chieftain: Quote:
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Now, what is Elrond's position in this period when Arathorn II dies and the next Chieftain, Aragorn is 2 years old (and during the Hobbit I believe he'd be about 10-11?). Quote:
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Last edited by Boromir88; 05-24-2012 at 06:38 AM. |
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05-24-2012, 10:55 AM | #16 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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You have convinced me from your evidence that Elrond being recognized informally as a chief by the Dúnedain is also a possible explanation. With no explicit evidence, that is a far as you can reasonably expect to go. Quote:
In Scottish highland usage chief is used for the leader of a clan and chieftain for the leader of part of a clan. If one takes the half-elven as a clan, then Elrond would be chief of a clan which consists of his own children and the descendants of his brother Elros. The leader of the descendants of Elros in the North would be leader of a part of a clan and quite reasonably be called a Chieftain. Accordingly Elrond would be both Chief and Chieftain of his own part clan consisting of himself and his children and only Chief, but not Chieftain, of the Dúnedain of the North. By this logic Elrond ought to be Chief of the Gondorians as well. But this logic was not followed in Gondor and probably was not followed in the North until the destruction of Arthedain when this clan structure was recognized by Aranarth who was the first Chieftain of the Rangers of the North with Elrond as Chief of his clan. This argument considers that the number of generations between Elros and Aranarth was such that it was considered that almost all or all of the Dúnedain of the North were descended from Elros. This is yet another logical explanation. But I believe it no more or less than the other explanations because of lack of evidence. Lack of evidence trumps everything. Quote:
What was the view of Estel (Aragorn) of the governance of the Rangers before he learned the truth about his birth and his hereditary position? Tolkien doesn’t tell and so information is not available. |
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05-24-2012, 11:44 AM | #17 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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I almost forgot to add some general things after reading the chapter a few days ago.
At first, I thought "wow these Elves seem uncharistically silly, with a snobbish attitude." Like my comments about the dwarves in Roast Mutton, the Elves in A Short Rest were jarring if compared to LOTR. But, relatively quickly, I remembered Gildor, who gives us a similar impression, poking fun at hobbits and wizards: Quote:
It's similar to this chapter in several ways. Bilbo and the dwarves overcome their trouble with the trolls and starvation by getting to Rivendell for necessary rest and recovery. The Elves (in general) come off as annoying snobs, who like to laugh and joke about other races. Yet, they still receive a minor (but important) help in deciphering Thror's map from Elrond. Elrond's description is one of my favorite character descriptions in the book. Smaug is, without question, my favorite character in The Hobbit, but the description of Elrond is pure gold: Quote:
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Last edited by Boromir88; 05-24-2012 at 12:05 PM. |
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