Where did Radagast dwell?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This topic is supposed to be devoted only to finding out where and eventually when did Radagast dwell during his stay in Middle-Earth. But before I unfold before you more complicated scheme, we need to clear something up. With this question we start, and I am hoping to get it answered, for it is the main question I have concerning this topic.

I am posing you a serious, plain, wholy understandable question and I am expecting a serious and wholy understandable answer.

WHERE IS RHOSGOBEL?

One would say, quite a basic thing. It's almost as if I asked "where is Minas Tirith" or "where is Orthanc". Everyone knows where Annúminas is, everyone knows where Durthang is, even though they are not almost mentioned in the story, certainly not more than Rhosgobel. But where is Rhosgobel?

On the map in LotR, at least on the one I have, it's not marked at all. Of course, why not, I won't expect it there as Rhosgobel does not play any significant role in the story (though the same could be said about many other places that are marked).

In the Hobbit, it's not on the map as well; and as in the former case, I won't even expect it there. Maybe under certain circumstances we could take one of the woodmen villages mentioned there as Rhosgobel (cf. below).

But in the chapter "Queer Lodgings", we read:

Originally Posted by Gandalf, to Beorn

perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?

Southern borders. So I would expect something, well, quite close to Dol Guldur, something like that.

That's the last time we hear about Radagast for a long time. Next time, Gandalf meets him in FotR and tells to the Council of Elrond something about him:

It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel, near the borders of Mirkwood.

Now it's just "borders of Mirkwood", not "southern borders", but that still corresponds with the previous.

Later, when the Fellowship is preparing to depart, Elves and Rangers and sons of Elrond are sent out to check the paths and surroundings.

...and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair.

Now this is the part that is opened to most speculations. "Over the Gladden Fields" seems to imply that Rhosgobel was lying on the other side of the river, in the same latitude. This would also correspond with the words "near southern borders of Mirkwood". Also, if the scout returned over the Dimrill Stair, then they probably went south meanwhile.

The impression from what was quoted before is that Rhosgobel could be in the latitude where the Narrows of the Forest were. Karen Wynn Fonstad in her Atlas of Middle-Earth (generally a very credible source) places Rhosgobel at the global map of the 3rd-Age Middle-Earth somewhat north of Dol Guldur, in the same latitude as Mirkwood's East Bight.

But then we have the Unfinished Tales. There, Rhosgobel is mentioned only once, in the notes to "Istari" (#4):

In a very late note on the names of the Istari Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, "not now clearly interpretable." Rhosgobel, called "the old home of Radagast" in The Fellowship of the Ring II 3, is said to have been "in the forest between the Carrock and the Old Forest Road."

*ahem* Now, as you can see, this quite opposes what we have just said. "Between the Carrock and the Old Forest Road" is somewhere near Beorn's house - and that's neither "near southern borders", nor much close to the Gladden Fields or the Dimrill Gate. I can't find Christopher's map that was in the UT now, but I believe Rhosgobel is not marked there (or am I mistaken?). However, the funny thing is that Karen Wynn Fonstad, in the very same Atlas I mentioned above, marks Rhosgobel on two maps (regional map of Wilderness and regional map of Misty Mountains) according to this statement, quite in opposite to where she put it on the global map of the Third Age. Looks like she did not even realize this difference (which seems indeed strange?).

Now, where is Rhosgobel, then? Is there any other evidence I did not mention, that solves this problem? Some Letters, for example? And what shoud we take as "canon"? Personally I would skip the "late note" and listen to what is said in the books. However, the UT text is the only one where the placement of Rhosgobel is stated more concretely, and since it's a "late note", Tolkien could have had his "last version" prepared - but what of the mentions in the Hobbit and FotR?

[radagastly]

Checking my copy of UT, Rhosgobel is not depicted or labeled on the fold-out map. Can anyone translate the name Rhosgobel? That may give a clue to it's location.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A major problem with 'very late notes,' i.e. those made after Tolkien's move to Bournemouth in 1968, is that he was largely working from memory, which he himself admitted was becoming unreliable. It's unsurprising therefore that many of these should contradict what he wrote elsewhere (cf the names of the Blue Wizards).

[Gwathagor]

"ros" has to do with turbulent water: foam, spray, bubbling, water vapor; that sort of thing. It shows up as "roth" in the numenorean name of Earendil's ship: Rothinzil, Foamflower.

"go" might come from "gon", which is associated with stone (Gondolin, Gondor, etc.)

"bel", on the other hand, has to do with power, might, greatness, and strength (Beleg, Belegost, Belegaer, etc.).

So:

The "water" and "power" elements probably indicate a spring, a waterfall, or rapids. Even with the "stone" aspect to the word, it could conceivably be any of these: a waterfall splashing and spraying down over rocks, and spring welling up out of the rocks, or a portion of Anduin or one of its tributaries that has lots of rapids and rocks (since you have to have rocks to have rapids, really). If it is a stream or river, I would tend to think that it is probably a tributary rather than Anduin itself, since the Good Book says that Radagast lived near the borders of Mirkwood. Of course, anywhere in the Vales of Anduin could be considered "near" Mirkwood, but Radagast, being an animal guy, would probably live closer to the forest rather than further.
I like the idea of a waterfall, spring, or some kind of combination forming a minor, but swiftly flowing, tributary of the Anduin, probably north of Dol Guldur, but still south of the Forest Road: probably directly just south-east of the Gladden fields, among the trees on the edge of the Greenwood. Radagast could live in a cool cave beside the spring.

But that's just me. Here's a picture of where I think Rhosgobel is, as well as the stream that I maintain originates nearby.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/8010111@N07/1627201358/

[radagastly]

Thanks for the translation, Gwathagor. It's unfortunate that the maps don't show more detail. Your guess is probably pretty close based on what we know, except for perhaps the 'later notes.' The maps in Fellowship and UT show no small streams flowing out of Mirkwood in that vicinity, but the Wilderland map in The Hobbit does show several small patches of the verticle lines that seem to indicate open water in most of Tolkien's maps. The only labels show them to be woodmen settlements, though, or nothing. It could qualify as the mouth of the Gladden river as it empties into Anduin (or across the Great River from there.) It's all still just guesses, though, unless someone finds something in Letters. I don't have that available.

[Gwathagor]

Of course, Tolkien isn't going to put ALL the waterways on the map...just the really major ones. I think that we have to assume that a river that swells as large as Anduin does further south must have more than 3 or 4 smaller streams/rivers that flow into it. So it's plausible, but hard to prove.

One other thought: the woodmen's settlements are a good indication that there are, in fact, streams flowing out of the forest into Anduin, since one of the most basic human needs is water. Any decent habitation has a nearby water source.

[Galin]

Rhosgobel means 'russet village or town (enclosure)'

Gobel 'walled house or village, town'.

[Gwathagor]

Oh. *crashes and burns* Well, that works, too.

Where did you find that?

[The Might]

I guess you didn't really expect to get a clear answer Legate, so I'll remain speculative.
I would not go for the late writing choice, since it would seem strange that Gandalf wouldn't mention his presence in the area or would not consult him on the problem of Dol Guldur.
I'd just ignore this late writing that isn't in accordance with any other source and go for the old southern location.

[Galin]

Tolkien defined Rhosgobel in his unfinished index (information courtesy of Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull).

The first element appears related to words for 'red-brown' and a root RUS, noting Maedros for example -- though actually a related root beginning with SR- in this case as we have initial rh. According to Appendix E 'RH represents a voiceless r (usually derived from older initial sr-). Gobel maybe contains -pel 'enclosure, fenced field, garth', noting Pelargir 'Enclosure of royal ships'.

But whether my guesses are right or wrong the meaning above is from Tolkien's index in any case, which is the important part.

[Quempel]

The first working map that J.R.R. Tolkien made of Middle-earth shows Rhosgobel situated on the edge of Mirkwood just south of the Gladden Fields. However, a note appended to the essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales places Rhosgobel farther north, between the Old Forest Road and the Carrock.

http://www.tuckborough.net/dwellings.html

I found this looking for information. I think that Tolkien wasn't set on where it was and had changed it. That said, I always believed Radagast lived in the woods near by Mirkwood, but did not interact much with Elves or Humans but with animals and plants, so he would not be out and about within the normal paths and Rhosgobel could cover the area between southern edge of mirkwood and going further north between the Old Forest Road ect.

[Aiwendil]

Here's a highly speculative idea: suppose we try to reconcile the various quotations by positing two distinct homes for Radagast?

At one time, Radagast lived at his 'old home', Rhosgobel, which was near the borders of Mirkwood at around Beorn's latitude (the northern of the two locations), thus satisfying:

It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel, near the borders of Mirkwood.

In a very late note on the names of the Istari Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, "not now clearly interpretable." Rhosgobel, called "the old home of Radagast" in The Fellowship of the Ring II 3, is said to have been "in the forest between the Carrock and the Old Forest Road."

Later (by the time of The Hobbit), Radagast left Rhosgobel for some reason and took up residence at another location further south, thus making this statement true when it was made:

perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?

The only quotation against which this supposition seems to go awry is this:

...and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair.

This suggests that Rhosgobel was at roughly the same latitude as the Gladden Fields. It also suggests that (even though Rhosgobel is his 'old home' and he is not there) Elrond expected Radagast to be at Rhosgobel. However, one could imagine that the scouts passed 'over the Gladden Fields' northward and so came to Rhosgobel (though why they would not cross at the more northern pass is a mystery). One could further suppose that Radagast had not definitively abandoned Rhosgobel in favour of the more southern location; perhaps he spent some time at each (and indeed, that may be why he was not at Rhosgobel when Elrond's people arrived).

I don't think I really believe the above proposal, but I thought it might be interesting to consider.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Aiwendil, it's true, as you said yourself, that the version you posted does not make sense - however, what if we reversed it? What if Radagast at first lived near the Southern end of the forest, that was his "old home" - he lived there still by the time Gandalf visited Beorn (as Gandalf says to Beorn). This "old home" was what the scouts visited:

...and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel

And Radagast was not there. He moved. Why? Because, as we read elsewhere, Dol Guldur was populated again, "and with power sevenfold". It was no longer safe for Radagast to dwell down there, so he moved further North and built "New Rhosgobel" in the land near the Beornings, who probably were his friends and where he felt safer.

And this:

In a very late note on the names of the Istari Radagast is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, "not now clearly interpretable." Rhosgobel, called "the old home of Radagast" in The Fellowship of the Ring II 3, is said to have been "in the forest between the Carrock and the Old Forest Road."

is just how Christopher explains the note of his father. The note was, as it seems to me from this quote, something like "Rhosgobel was between the Carrock and Old Forest Road". Christopher added the words "called the old home of Radagast". Do you see where I am heading? Christopher was not aware that there were two Rhosgobels and identified the "old home" with Rhosgobel from this note. But the Rhosgobel from the note was Rhosgobel#2.

I'm not expecting this to be accepted as a canonical answer, but we have one proverb in Czech: I don't know if an equivalent is in English, but we say "So that the wolf was fed but the goat remained whole". I think this is the case when the wolf was fed - but the goat remained whole.

[Aiwendil]

Another interesting idea, Legate. The problem of course is that then you need to posit two Rhosgobels, which is not anywhere suggested. Whereas if we suppose that the southern location was not called Rhosgobel, we don't have that problem - but we run into trouble with the LotR quote.

I think the 'real' answer is simply that when he wrote the late note, JRRT had forgotten what he'd written many years earlier. It certainly wouldn't be surprising, nor the only instance.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Another interesting idea, Legate. The problem of course is that then you need to posit two Rhosgobels, which is not anywhere suggested. Whereas if we suppose that the southern location was not called Rhosgobel, we don't have that problem - but we run into trouble with the LotR quote.

Well, I thought that both the places could be called Rhosgobel. Radagast lived in "Rhosgobel 1" in the South, and when he had to leave it, he lacked the place so much that he named the second place where he dwelt the same (and probably built that "russet village" there, along with his friends who were, let's say, woodsmen who also had to leave their former homes).

[Aiwendil]

Yes, that's conceivable. Another point in favour of your hypothesis is that it seems more probable that Radagast would move from south to north, rather than vice versa, as Dol Guldur's power increased.

On the other hand - let me take one more stab at my proposal. Suppose that at the time when Elrond sent out his scouts, Radagast was at neither of his homes (off on an adventure somewhere, perhaps). The scouts passed over the Gladden fields and visited his southern home (the one not named Rhosgobel). Finding him not there, they went northward and visited his 'old home' at Rhosgobel, between the Carrock and the forest road. He was not there either. That would, I think, satisfy the letter of what is stated in LotR, if not the spirit. One could further suppose that he did not move south until after Sauron had returned to Mordor - at which time the terror of Dol Guldur would have been somewhat reduced.

Again, this is just an entertaining exercise as far as I'm concerned. I would be very, very surprised if Tolkien had any such convoluted concept in mind.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, yes, this idea would be possible as well. In that case, Radagast's movement to South would be probably a movement made by the White Council in their preparations to strike towards Dol Guldur, planting a scout near the targeted spot.

But I think we have said quite enough on that topic. Now, we can make a nice bridge to my next question: it seems obvious, and it has been already mentioned here, that Radagast abandoned his dwelling later. The fact that the scouting party did not find him is not much of a proof of that; he could have been just outside for a few days or weeks, let's say rallying some birds to his cause in sending help to Gandalf or Saruman. But from Gandalf's words at the Council:

It was Radagast the Brown, who at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel, near the borders of Mirkwood.

we can presume that Radagast had, for some reason, indeed left his home. Of course we could interpretate it that way that he first (i.e. when he came to Middle-Earth) did not have any "home" and later he settled down at Rhosgobel, but all the other things could point to the fact that he was indeed living there and then, some time after the events described in the Hobbit, he left his home. Now, taking aside my and Aiwendil's hypothesis about "two homes", where else and why do you think Radagast could move away from his home? I would be very interested to hear different ideas and suggestions, for many people can bring many different and interesting ideas. So, what do you think? Why did Radagast leave Rhosgobel (if he did) and where did he go (if anywhere)?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

but we have one proverb in Czech: I don't know if an equivalent is in English, but we say "So that the wolf was fed but the goat remained whole".

In English the equivalent proverb is "to have one's cake and eat it too."

[Elmo]

I've never understood that. Why would you have a cake and not eat it too?

[Alfirin]

I think "have" in this case means "posess" The aphorism means that you cant eat a cake and still posesses it (i.e. have it still sitting in front of you to eat later)