Lessons on Swordsmanship

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

LOL.... Omigawd, I have this vision of your mother's horrified expression watching you bang away at eachother. Uh. Hm. Read my thread that describes the professional soldier's conduct of never pointing a weapon he doesn't intend to use, note Aragorn and Boromir lowering their swords after and when going into battle - very professional. That Arwen pointing a sword at Aragorn's neck: total BS. I have a major beef with that, it's totally unprofessional, to my mind it ruined her credibility in the movie. Eowyn should come across better. I'm not giving you guys a time, this is just one of my things, I've been trained in some martial arts, archery, small arms and rifles, and the rules of weapons are always the same: try not to kill your friends, and only point weapons at disposable relatives, second cousins twice-removed, the sort you won't miss. <P>A friend of mine had a replica samurai sword and was trained to use it in martial arts (he chopped blocks of wood with his bare hands, that sort of show-off trick). Anyways, he and his older brother were goofing around, and it just slipped, sliced a piece of Ben's finger right off, easy as could be, chopped it in half. I mean it was like cutting through butter. Fortunately we retrieved the piece from the dirt and the doctors were able to re-attach it - and Chris really learned his lesson. But Ben didn't speak to him for god knows how long. It was months. Boy he was ****ed. It hurt like hell, blood everywhere. Mostly though, he was freaked out, because it sliced so easily, it was obvious he could have lost a lot more than just his finger. True story.<P>-Maril

[Davin]

Ouch! That sounds painfull. I have a friend who's finger got cut in half when I door slammed on it (it was swinging in the wind..there was a storm...and he tried to shut it). They couldn't attach it..the bone was sticking out and everything. Not very pretty.<P>I have been training martial arts (Tae Kwon Do msotly) for almost 6 years...and I am accustomed to the pain of being hit with solid oak . I am planning on taking sword lessons or something once I go away to university (which is in a few weeks). I hurt my brother quite a bit during his lifetime...and my sister too...but all accidental. They always seem to get in the way of stuff I am swinging or slamming on the ground..hehe.<P>But swords have always interested me. I am also a collector of Ninja Stars. They're pretty cool. I made the mistake of throwing one up into the air above me....I barely got away...nearly landed in my skull...yeesh!

[Robin Headstrong]

Heh, I saw replicas of Sting and Glamdring at a cutlery store in a mall.<BR>BTW, thanks for those swordsmanship lessons! I'm obsessed with swords, and those lessons will be useful for a comic/manga I hope to write. Thanks, Marileangorifurnimaluim! (Man, that's long!)<p>[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Robin Headstrong ]

[Davin]

Do you remember what store it was you saw them in? I would be very interested. I am looking around for the best deal that I can get for a good quality replica.

[Boromir's Lady]

Marileangorifurnimaluim! Thank you so much for taking the time to post your Swordmanship tips! I am starting a fan fic as well and needed to search for this VERY subject! I have learned quite a bit from your posts! Again, Thank you!

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

*Holds sword up in salute* You guys are very welcome. And welcome to add your own experiences, tips, research. It was for a fan-fic that I did all this research (heh, one I never got around to writing more than the bare outline before life turned busy again). I decided to share it for everyone's benefit, half of learning being teaching. The first half, in fact.<P>I'll save your typing fingers: Maril's the short form. *Sheaths sword, extends hand* Nice to meet all of you. <P>-Maril

If you're still looking for sword stores, you might want to check out <A HREF="http://www.swordsonline.com" TARGET=_blank>Swords Online</A>, worryingly my sister's favourite website, they have lots of real sized replica swords, although I'm not sure about letter openers. I'm also not sure about the prices, but it is worth a look just to gawk at their amazing selection.<p>[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: Nevtalathiel ]

[Saxony Tarn]

thanks, Nevta' -- they had some nice stuff but all rather pricy for this project. oh well, shall continue searching (maybe press some old knives into service...)<P>s.t.<BR>(and an unarmed little warrior)

[Wandering but not lost]

in reponse to Davin's comment about his friend who had his finger cut in half by a door my finger was cut in half by a folding chair. I'm not an attention seeker so I'm sorry if it's a little off subject here. <P>I have always loved the idea of sword fighting but I have never managed to find somewhere where I can learn as the closest thing to sword fighting i could do is fencing. I'm going to try and start that in Sept. <BR>I love all the info on sword fighting, it's amazing!

[Lostgaeriel]

Unfortunately, the original formatting of the posts on this thread have taken a beating. So below, all cleaned up for easier reading is a replay of my sword & shield info that Marileangorifurnimaluim posted for me:

~

June 1, 2002

Thanks for starting this thread on swordfighting. The info is very helpful. Sorry to divert the topic to weapon design, but form follows function, eh?

I decided to go to the local museum (the ROM - Royal Ontario Museum) the other day to revisit their display of weapons and armour. Got a better idea of size and scale of the swords and the component parts.

Two broadswords dated 900-1025 AD had blades about 30" and 36" with grips 4" and 6" respectively. The second, longer sword was a 'new type of blade for cut & thrust c. 900 AD'. So I assume these were used one-handed? (Sorry, they didn't give dimensions, so these are my estimates.)

They had one Great Sword (2-hander) dated 1280-1320 AD and the blade appeared to be about 48", which they described as 'longer than usual'. The grip was about 8" or 9", as was the guard (or cross).

There were two hand-and-a-half swords, one from 1350-1400 AD - 'long, stiff, sharply pointed steel blade useful for thrusting'. Grip approx. 6"-7". The other dated 1300-1350 AD had a blade with 'a more acute point and thicker cross-section for thrusting and cutting'. These swords brought about the beginning of the end of chain-mail since the sharp points could 'pop' the mail rings when thrusting. Partial plate armour began about 1200 AD.

Looking forward to more swordfighting lessons!

~

August 9, 2002

Hi Marileangorifurnimaluim!

UPDATE/CORRECTIONS to Sword info:

My previous visit to the ROM was about 20 minutes, I stopped in between appointments, so I was a bit rushed. I've since gone back and spent more than an hour carefully examining and sketching the swords and armour. I even took a tape measure to get more accurate dimensions. (Even so, it's difficult to measure articles that are two feet behind glass.)

The two broadswords dated 900-1025 AD had blades about 26" and 30".

The blade of the Great Sword (2-hander) dated 1280-1320 AD was closer to 40" to perhaps 44" rather than 48" I previously estimated. Still it was described as 'longer than usual' and was the same length as the approx. 42"-44" blade of a Scottish Claymore dated early 1500s. The notes in the display claimed that the claymore was similar to two-handed swords used in Central Europe but it had a slightly shorter blade and angled guards. (The claymore had a 10-12" two-handed grip.) So I'm guessing that a 48" Great Sword is not out of the question.

The blade of the hand-and-a-half sword from 1350-1400 AD was about 36" and the grip was closer to 8" or 9".

Cross sections for cutting swords are:
<=> or <x> (flat with sharp edges or fullered with tapered sharp edges)

Cross sections for cut & thrust swords are:
<0> or ^ or <> (thicker center with tapered sharp edges or triangular or diamond-shaped)

Average weight/mass of a sword was only 2-3 lb or 0.9-1.4 kg!!!


NOT Swords:

Full suit of plate armour massed/weighed about 18-27 kg or 40-60 lb. That’s no heavier than field packs carried by infantry in World War I.

There was a buckler on display. That's a small shield used in foot combat 1200s-1600. Some were round, others rectangular. This one was round from Wales, used in the early 1500s, about 12" in diameter. It was made of concentric rings of rivets and had a 2" globe-shaped boss or finial at the center. The overall shape of the shield was like a straw hat with an upturned brim (with the boss on top). That is concave from the outer edge inverting to convex at the center. This shape boggled my mind – not at all what I expected. I expected a convex shape that sort of wraps around the arm/body.

An example of an Italian Barbut c. 1460 - a light helmet (shoulder length) with t-shape opening in front for vision and ventilation was 5 ½ lb or 2.5 kg. The smooth round surfaces of this plate-metal helmet deflected the most powerful personal weapons of the day.

I've got some more info on spurs and sword-making and sword decoration (blueing, fire-guilding, etching, engraving, chiselling, chasing/embossing), but I'm a bit fuzzy on it.

~

And here I'm attaching my sketches & notes of weapons & armour from my visits to the ROM (Royal Ontario Museum) in 2002. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Pages 1, 5, 6, & 7 of total 7 attached.

Oops! File size limit is 100 KB and I pages 2, 3 & 4 are larger than that. Working on new drawings since original sketches are very rough. Will upload later .

[Neurion]

It might be worthwhile to check out this thread for an interesting perspective on the swordplay in LotR, from some of the best in the business.

Link

BTW, the 60 lbs of armour a knight would wear, is about exactly the same amount of weight more or less, as a modern U.S. soldier's LBE, body armour, helmet, rifle and ammunition.

[Estel the Descender]

Originally Posted by Marileangorifurnimaluim

LOL.... Omigawd, I have this vision of your mother's horrified expression watching you bang away at eachother. ... <P>A friend of mine had a replica samurai sword and was trained to use it in martial arts (he chopped blocks of wood with his bare hands, that sort of show-off trick). Anyways, he and his older brother were goofing around, and it just slipped, sliced a piece of Ben's finger right off, easy as could be, chopped it in half. I mean it was like cutting through butter. Fortunately we retrieved the piece from the dirt and the doctors were able to re-attach it - and Chris really learned his lesson. But Ben didn't speak to him for god knows how long. It was months. Boy he was ****ed. It hurt like hell, blood everywhere. Mostly though, he was freaked out, because it sliced so easily, it was obvious he could have lost a lot more than just his finger. True story.<P>-Maril

Same thing happened to me and my twin brother. We were fencing with cadet smallswords and in brief moment of triumph i stabbed my brother's hand. We spent a lot on tetanus shots and stuff, and my bro wasn't able to join in formation for months.

Ever since then, i cannot spar effectively anymore, finding myself always holding back, because i remember all the blood that spurted out of my brother's hand. Even when i spar with plastic lightsabers or padded eskrima sticks, i always unconsciuosly hold back. Needless to say, i havent won eversince that day i stabbed my own brother and nearly killed him.

NEVER AGAIN!