Do elves stop to age??

[Lady Eowyn]

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I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I was
wondering. Do elves stop to age?? I mean I always thought Arwen
as looking pretty young and Elrond like middle aged.
Tolkien always writes that you &quot;see great wisdom in their eyes&quot;.
So, what do you think??

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000065>Lady Eowyn</A> at: 3/16/01 5:22:41 am

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Do elves stop to age??

Hmmmm I dont rightly know if they stop to age, and Im sure once lindil sees this topic the shroud of mystery shall by lifted. I for one always thought that the elves aged, but simply at a slower rate. How slow, Im not sure, and this is just yet another stab in the dark, which Im sure will be bested in but a few hours. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

“I have been a fierce bull and a yellow buck. I have been a boat upon the sea. I have been the foam of water. I have been a drop in the air. I have journeyed as high as an eagle. I have been at the throne of the distributor. I have stood high upon the white hill. I was fluent before being gifted with speech. I have been teacher to all intelligences. I have singly built the tower of Nimrhod. I am the tetragrammaton. I am a wonder whose origin is not know, and I shall be until the day of doom upon the earth…” -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a> or telling stories at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> </p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Do elves stop to age??

Hmmmmm. While I'm not the scholar lindl is, let me take a crack at it, too.

Elves can be made to &quot;age&quot; somewhat, by long torture, etc.

They certainly age from childhood to maturity.

It seems to me that their countenances take on the attributes of the spirit within.

We do that too, a little. Look at the pictures of actors from the Golden Age of Hollywood.

Let's take Joan Crawford as an example. (Gah!)

As a young engenue in the silent films, she was a fresh-faced doll. In only a few years, though still beautiful, her face began to take a hard ruthless edge.

By the time she was old, her face became a caricature of itself, and seemed quite hard and brutal.

Bette Davis, too.

Lillian Gish, on the other hand, became a beautiful little old lady whose smile was like springtime.

Elves, while not aging in quite the same way, perhaps do the same. Their countenances and postures become &quot;fixed&quot; with their spirits over the long centuries.

Take Eol the Dark Elf as one example of this.

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Do elves stop to age??

HoME describes &quot;three phases&quot; in an elvish life: (1) childhood which lasts approximately 50 years, they grow (physically) slower than men; (2) a long period where elves change little; and (3) a late phase (well over 10,000 years) when elves begin to show some signs of age and their bodies may begin to &quot;fade&quot;, at least in Middle Earth. The only elf we actually see that is in the third phase is Cirdan, who has a beard unlike virtually all other elves (it is suggested that Mahtan, father of Nerdanel, wife of Feanor may have had a beard and there is a painting by JRRT which appears to show Beleg with a beard), silver hair and some other signs of age. The silver hair may have been &quot;natural&quot;, i.e. some Teleri may have had silver hair.

Sorry to steal your thunder Lindil. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Do elves stop to age??

Círdan seems to have had the silver hair related to Elwës kin (according to Quendi &amp; Eldar anyway) This trait was said to be generally uncommon among the Sindar, but found in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwë. Cheers~

Almarë elyen

</p>

[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Do elves stop to age??

Celeborn was one who apparently had silver hair,his name being translated as &quot;silver-tall&quot;. And it's hard for me to picture Elves as children.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Do elves stop to age??

Hmmm. With due respect, I find it hard to envision an Elf giving birth to a fully grown &quot;child&quot;. Talk about uncomfortable pregnancies! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Glorfindel]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

In the hobbit it was said that The Elven King(Thandruil) also had a beard. But do you think that matters much since some things are different in the hobbit? Not totally different but it is just a kids book. But anyways back to thandruil he was also Teleri so he might of had that trait shared by Cirdan.

</p>

[KayQy]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

Do elves stop what to age?

They cannot conquer forever!</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

i think it shows, but not so much as it shows in humans. it mainly shows in their eyes. I think they grow normally up until a certain age and then they slow down so slow that the changes dont really show. An elf would have to be many ages old before he'd look like an old man and even then im not so sure.

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[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

Glorfindel:
Could you please provide the citation from the Hobbit wherein the Elven-king is described as having a beard.
(If you are drawing this from one of Michael Martinez' articles, he was mistaken and seems to have acknowledged that when I asked for a citation).



Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

There is no mention in HoME of 3 stages of life for Elves that I am aware of. The only mention I have seen was published in Vinyar Tengwar, and says that Elves generally did not grow beards until their third stage of life. No age boundaries are given noris said that they only had 'three stages'.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

does it have to be from the hobbit or can it be any elf who has a beard?

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[lindil]

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3 stages

Like Mithadan I thought 3 stages were mentioned in the laws and customs chapter of HoME 10 but upon a quick scan after seeing this post I looked it up and could find nothing and so I waited for the other real elven loremaster of the board to post [elenion, the first being mithadan] and sure enough he had source being the Vinyar Tengwar journal , [for the '3rd' stage at least].


But what article in VT exactly, Elenion?

laws and customs does make reference to a youth of elves, as mentioned so a pre-bearded adult phase is a natural and almost certainly correct inference.

Is the Beleg picture in the newer JRRT artist and illustrator or the pictures by JRRT or?...



Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board< link=wwwezboard.bosanwekenta.html >Osanwe-Kenta</link> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: 3 stages

lindil:
I think it is in VT 41 (might be in #40, dont have them handy) in the section that supplies some additional portions of the Shibboleth of Feanor.
The Beleg picture is in both 'Artist and Illustrator' (#54), and 'Pictures' (#37).

re: 'pre-bearded adult phase'
I agree, this is likely, as Nerdanel's father had a beard though was only early in his second phase (see VT 41). I just wanted to clarify that it is not stated in Laws and Customs nor are age breaks given. I dont think I have noticed on any other boards or even the newsgroups anyone other than me posting this particular info, unless they are drawing it from posts I have made citing this, and I want to make sure the info is correct.


Elenanna:
The citation in which the Elvenking is said to have a beard needs to come from the Hobbit (but it does not exist).

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Orald]

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Re: 3 stages

This topic, I think, was spawned by an answer given in another thread.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[lindil]

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beards

Tar E.said:
I think it is in VT 41 (might be in #40, dont have them handy) in the
section that supplies some additional portions of the Shibboleth of
Feanor.

Elenion, thanks I read it in the Shibboleth additions right after I posted.
Very interesting stuff, I don't know what CRT was thinking by leaving it out..
I will take a peek in Artist/Illustrator next time I am around it.


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Orald]

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Re: beards

He left certain things out so he could put them into the fabled HoME XIII &quot;Myth's Transthorned&quot;

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: beards

back to beards (i can't comment on the HoME volumes because i haven't read them) are there any other elves, besides Cirdan, that have a beard?

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000112>Elenanna </A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/24/01 12:39:11 am

[Glorfindel]

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Re: beards

Tar Elenion:
I think i found where I probably took that whole Thanduil with a beard thing at. A picture by Darrel Sweet, Thanduil is shown as a old looking man with a long white beard. That is probably where I came up with it.



</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: beards

Mahtan, father-in-law to Feanor, was rumored to have a beard. In his picture re-titled &quot;Mirkwood&quot;, which in reality was Beleg coming across Gwindor in Taur-Nu-Fuin, Beleg appears to have a beard though this is uncertain.

BTW, the references to Elven aging were in Morgoth's Ring if I recall (categorizing the three phases may be my interpretation based upon the description rather than words used by JRRT) and I thus incorporated it into Cirdan's discussion with Ælfwine in Conversations in Avallónë. Sorry but I don't have HoME 10 with me to provide a cite (and I hope its not actually HoME 12).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Meneldil]

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Re: beards

I'd copied the additional portions of the Shibboleth and the essay on ore from VT 41, but I can't seem to find the references to Elven aging there, though I distinctly remember having read about it somewhere. Could someone help by telling me where exactly it is in VT?

</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: beards

Meneldil:
VT 41 bottom of page 9.

------------------------------
Quothe Mithadan:
BTW, the references to Elven aging were in Morgoth's Ring if I recall (categorizing the three phases may be my interpretation based upon the description rather than words used by JRRT) and I thus incorporated it into Cirdan's discussion with Ælfwine in Conversations in Avallónë. Sorry but I don't have HoME 10 with me to provide a cite (and I hope its not actually HoME 12).
-------------------------------------


When you get a chance perhaps you might post some quotes from the source you are thinking of and comparing them to the VT quote. I find the reference to the '3 cycles' much more intriguing than the reference to beards. It would be interesting to know if JRRT wrote more on this that has yet to be published.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

[Pengolodh]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

Cirdan's discussion with Ælfwine in Conversations in Avallónë

Mithadan, is that something you are writing for the new Sil? I've never read something about such a conversation, so I am also curious why you would (possibly)incorporate that.

I would think that it is very interesting to see if there are indeed cycles in an Elf's life. Laws and customs doesn't mention them and I do not have VT 41.

Tar-E,is there not also something about these cycles in VT 36, the Marquette archives?

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

Pengolodh, the conversation adverted to appears in the second installment of a &quot;Fan Fiction&quot; (I rather dislike that phrase) series I have written for the Downs. There are now three installments of &quot;Tales From Tol Eressea&quot; all of which may be found in the fan fiction section on the Barrow Downs' main page. Aelfwine is the vehicle I have chosen to present these stories which relate conversations between Aelfwine and various elves (some very familiar) which occur on the Lonely Isle. The Tales are pure speculation and imagination extrapolating upon Tolkien's work and are NOT in any way to be confused with &quot;canon&quot;.

Check them out and I hope you enjoy them.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Pengolodh]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

With regard to beards, it is certainly interesting to note that it was an Elvish trademark not to have beards. UT mentions that the line of the men of Dol Amroth had elvish trademarks and it then notes this comment about the ELves not having beards.

And yes, Cirdan would be the obvious exception, although his beard is more of a symbol to his enormous age in my opinion, also related to his complete fading.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolod h</A> at: 4/20/01 6:08:28 am

[Halbarad]

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Re: aging and beards

A:Elves were immortal- they could be killed by weapons or great grief, or be ruined, but they did not age or die a natural death.
B:What is age precisely? Is it the passing of years or the body growing old and dying? We speak of mental age and old age. Elves would have grown mentally, becoming wise, and sad with the passing of what used to be their greatness. They grew weary of heart, which is when they passed to the West. They grew physically, but their bodies did not age, their souls did.
C: Elves faded, and they did not produce many children- they had no need- most of them wouldn't die.
D:Beards would have been a racial trait, as some people have pointed out- like humans from different places, some grow beards more easily than others- maybe they chose to have a beard, depending on their job, e.g. Cirdan- boatbuilder, a rugged job

Something to think about

</p>

[Pengolodh]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

Well, Elves not having beards is said to be a trademark of them so it is unlikely that they chose to have it. But there are the cases of Mahtan and Cirdan, the exceptions.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[Belegheru]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Where is it written that Cirdan and the other Elf had beards

Where is it written that they had beards

</p>

[Glornan]

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hehe

I clearly see that the amount of scholar/tolkien fanatics arguing over even the stupidest thing, has changed since I left<img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Glornan, Feeling sigless</p>

[Pengolodh]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

It is often the scholarly way to concern oneself with details. Time has shown that details may lead to different views of major concepts, especially when the evidence is fragile. Details can be so important. And incredibly irrelevant as well.

Who shall judge? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

aside from that, it's fun!

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[Belegheru]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Beards

AHHH come on I ment if someone could tell me where it was written that Cirdan or Thranduil had beards. I know it is true and I remember I red about it, but I just want to find the parts where it is written so I can read it again!!
Im probably dont know as much about ME and Tolkiens books as you guys do but I red alot of Tolkien books already and my goal is to read all of them so I can go in deeper disussions with you guys... Dont go so hard on me!!

</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Do elves stop to age??

It is not written (by JRRT) that Thranduil had a beard.
For Cirdan I would suggest reading the description of Cirdan at the end of the Grey Havens chapter in LotR: &quot;Very tall he was, and his beard was long...&quot;.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

[Nils]

From Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II): OF THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR PERTAINING TO MARRIAGE AND OTHER MATTERS RELATED THERETO: TOGETHER WITH THE STATUTE OF FINWE AND MIRIEL AND THE DEBATE OF THE VALAR AT ITS MAKING pg 212

For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limits of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. Moreover their body and spirit are not seperated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.

[ June 02, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

[Helkahothion]

Just a question: What were the age limit's for the phazes? Is it correct if I say:

1= 0-50
2= 50-10000
3= 10000-n/a

Suilad,

Anuion

[Meneltarmacil]

I don't know.... I mean it seems to have happened to Cirdan but Galadriel is supposed to be even older than the sun and the moon and she's way over 10000. My point is, Galadriel's older than Cirdan and she doesn't show any signs of aging whatsoever!

[Helkahothion]

Well, she can't grow a beard can she? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Abedithon le,

Anuion

[Finwe]

Well, unless she has a sex-change operation, she can't!

Obviously, the female Eldar were exempt from this rule. It only applied to the men. Naturally there were a few exceptions to the beards-growing-in-the-third-stage rule, like Mahtan, but since no one else (besides him and Cirdan) lived into their third stage, we can't really tell whether it's a tried-and-true thing. They all got themselves killed (unlike these two, who had brains!)

[Legolas]

like Mahtan, but since no one else (besides him and Cirdan) lived into their third stage, we can't really tell whether it's a tried-and-true thing. They all got themselves killed (unlike these two, who had brains!)

You mean, no one else listed grew a beard. We have no idea when this third stage of life started - it seems probable that Olwe, Ingwe, and Finarfin would be in this stage at least.

My point is, Galadriel's older than Cirdan and she doesn't show any signs of aging whatsoever!

Where did it say Galadriel was older than Cirdan? Cirdan's date of birth is unknown, but his birth is never spoken of (while Galadriel's is). A large number of people seem to think that Cirdan was of the first elves to awake, or in the first couple of generations after at least. Galadriel was not born until the Noldor had reached Valinor. Miriel dies, Finwe marries Indis, Indis has Finarfin, Finarfin weds Earwen, Earwen has Galadriel - didn't really happen overnight. Cirdan was a lord of the Teleri and was over those who lived by the sea. If anything can be speculated, it seems that Cirdan is older than Galadriel.

[Helkahothion]

What I wonder: Did Cirdan ever see Aman and Valinor. Because he was a Teleri and all. Does he sail out later?

Suilad,

Anuion