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Old 02-10-2003, 01:29 PM   #1
Naldoriathil
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Tolkien Flame of Udun and Anor

Just a quick question. I was reading FOTR today, when I came across the statement: "You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass.
The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udn.
Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
I was just wondering what the Flame of Udun and Anor were? I would be most appreciative if you could help me out, as I don't have my Silmarillion with me! Thanks again. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 02-10-2003, 01:42 PM   #2
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the flame of Anor is the Sun. as for the flame of Udun, i have no idea.
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Old 02-10-2003, 01:47 PM   #3
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Udun is Sindarin for Utumno, which was Morgoth's original stronghold.
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Old 02-10-2003, 02:31 PM   #4
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The Flame of Udun is of course the Balrog. Balrogs are maiar of fire seduced by Melkor in the beginning of Arda, they dwelt in Utumno, the first fortress of Melkor. Udun is the Sindarin name of Utumno.

Anor is the Sindarin name of the Sun.
The Flame of Anor is the light of the sun. The sun is the fiery fruit of Laurelin, one of the Two Trees.
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Old 02-10-2003, 02:42 PM   #5
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Ooops, seems I was wrong for the Udun one. How embarrasing.
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Old 02-10-2003, 03:28 PM   #6
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Galdalf is using the two different flames to contrast the goodness and badness of himself and the Balrog. Gandalf serves the secret fire, which may be understood to be God or the "life spirit" that God put into the world (I mean that in the most metaphorical way, far removed from any "new age" concepts), and he wields the flame of Anor, which is the Sun and Good. By contrast, the Balrog is a flame of Udun, which is the home of Morgoth, the Black Enemy, Hell.

Gandalf serves and wields the flame of God, the Balrog is a flame of Hell.

That both descriptions have to do with fire serves to show that both creatures, the Balrog and Gandalf are in origin the same sort, angelic beings created to serve greater angelic beings, but the one is fallen and the other is not.
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Old 02-10-2003, 04:23 PM   #7
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Not to differ entirely, but I always held that by wielding the Flame of Anor, Gandalf meant the elven ring of fire, which he held.
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Old 02-10-2003, 04:33 PM   #8
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That could be it, but it would still illustrate the good/bad dichotomy.
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Old 02-10-2003, 06:22 PM   #9
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Tolkien

Quote:
Just a quick question. I was reading FOTR today, when I came across the statement: "You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass.
The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udn.
Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
I was just wondering what the Flame of Udun and Anor were? I would be most appreciative if you could help me out, as I don't have my Silmarillion with me! Thanks again.
Anor:The name for the Sun in the Sindarin language. It appears in many names, including Minas Anor, the original name for Minas Tirith, meaning 'Tower of the Setting Sun'. It is also seen in the flower-name elanor, 'sunstar', and the title Gandalf claimed for himself on the Bridge of Khazad-dm, 'wielder of the flame of Anor'.


Udn:
Quote:
"The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udn. Go back to the Shadow!"
The Sindarin name of Utumno, the fortress of Melkor in the far north of the World. It was the first and greatest of Melkor's citadels, delved in the earliest days, the home to hosts of demons and monsters. From Udn, Melkor troubled the world for millennia. From there, he destroyed the Lamps of the Valar, so that Powers left Almaren, their dwelling-place in Middle-earth, and removed into the West. At the time of the awakening of the Elves, though, the Valar attacked Udn in full force, and destroyed it utterly, carrying its master back to Valinor as their prisoner.

The name Udn is much less common as a name for Melkor's fortress than the equivalent Utumno. In The Lord of the Rings it appears just once, in Gandalf's quote given above. It survived, though, as a name for the northern valley of Mordor that lay behind the Morannon. No doubt Sauron chose this name in memory of his ancient master's greatest stronghold.

I hope this helps Naldoriathil [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 02-10-2003, 06:48 PM   #10
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It may not surprise you to learn that there's already a thread on this.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Voronwe ]
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Old 02-10-2003, 07:03 PM   #11
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Udun is allegorical for Hell. Gandalf is saying that he is of God and the Balrog is of Hell.
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Old 02-12-2003, 06:49 PM   #12
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There is no allegory in LOTR, only aplicablity. Still, Burrahobbit makes a really good point.
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Old 02-13-2003, 01:18 AM   #13
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Sting

I bet InklingElf doesn't really agree with me, and that Arvedui III really does.

See, the allegory isn't real-world allegory. Tolkien doesn't mean Udun to actually be Hell, where Lucifer lives. The allegory is ELFISH allegory. Vis-a-vis Gandalf.
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Old 02-14-2003, 08:42 AM   #14
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thanks to all of you, ive wondered about that but never started a thread. i always wondered why the balrog came from udun, in the north of mordor in my map, rather than from somewhere near or north of arnor. thanks again.
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Old 02-20-2003, 01:02 PM   #15
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Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
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Silmaril

So long as we're talking about Gandalf and flames, here's a question. In The Return of the King, in Chapter 4, The Siege of Gondor, when Faramir and his men are retreating and Imrahil, etc.. and Gandalf charge out to help them, the Nazgul take off and it says in the book: "The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe." Where does the 'white fire' come in to the story? Does it mean the flame that Gandalf apparently wields, or does the statement act as a metaphor and describe Gandalf the White as a weapon of Gondor? I was just wondering.
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Old 02-20-2003, 01:12 PM   #16
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or a metaphore for the Valor. Sounds like you pretty much summed up all the options, choose which ever one pleases you the most (or all of them ;-)
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Old 02-20-2003, 01:18 PM   #17
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Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Feanor of the Peredhil is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
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Silmaril

Methinks all of them. It simplifies life- and I've got some other questions to think on. Besides- it could be Tolkien's wonderful way of smushing several references into one tidy description.
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