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Old 08-23-2017, 04:51 PM   #1
Findegil
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Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Time

This is the first draft of the chapter 1 Of the Beginning of Time. The shift of the material from the Ainulindalë into this chapter and the split of this first chapter was discussed in the thread about the Ainulindalë. The shift is as well the reason why some of the changes have already been discussed and why there is kind of a mess with the editing marker in this chapter.

Our text basis would be that of Ainulidalë D given in HoME 10. But it is not much left of it. The text is rather amalgamated from Myths Transfromed, Ainulidalë D, Later Quenta Silmarillion and Annals of Aman. Therefore all snippets that are used have a source info at their beginning.

We have four three groups of changes:

General changes given in the text below and discussed in the thread ‘General changes in TftE’. These changes are taken up here and marked in the text as changes (e.g. {Úrin}[Húrin]), but they are not indicated by "editorial markers". For the general changes please look into the Thread ‘General changes in TftE’.

AINU-zz these were numbered by Antione, when the passages were still part of the Ainulindalë. I will stick to these editing marker for consistence reference.

I have renumbered all the other changes with BoT-zz

Some conventions of our writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{to be deleted} = text that should be deleted, for a better readability I have in this file crossed the text out. The forum does not support crossed out text.
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is not repeated before each §. But sometimes the new § was taken as a new add and handled accordingly.

Quote:
BoT-01 <AAm 1 Of the Beginning of Time>
BoT-02 <MT, 2 After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Eä, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Ilúvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. …
Chief of the Valar of Arda was he whom the Eldar afterwards named Manwë, the Blessed: the Elder King, since he was the first of all kings in {[Arda >] }Eä. … that is: that comes from wills and being{ [sic]} that are other than Arda itself.
And as is known well, the prime among these is Melkor. …
As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. …
When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwë and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind>BoT-03 <Ainulidale D {§23 So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of the Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo. But Melkor, too, was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it, if he might, to his own desires and purposes}; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, … And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar{, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart}.>
BoT-04 <Ainulidale D §29 {And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him:} Little{, you say, would}[ was told by] the Valar{ tell} to the Eldar of the days before their coming.{: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?
}{§30 And Pengoloð answered: … But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.
§31 This}But this tale {I have heard also among}<was learned from> the lore masters in ages past. {For they tell us that the}The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. BoT-05 <AAm {And Melkor}He wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.> But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in BoT-06{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.}BoT-07 <AAm , but he turned a face of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas, and fled from the Earth} BoT-08<MT; 2 {But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä)} and he was driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwë had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar.>{; and}Thereafter there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.> BoT-09<Ainulidale D §24 {And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but}And he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart.>
BoT-10<Ainulidale D §25 But the Valar now took to themselves shape and hue; … and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice; even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment, but is not made thereby. BoT-11 <Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17 <The fanar <taken from above [or "raiment"]> of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have had a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to have assumed an awe-inspiring height.>
BoT-12{And Manwë and Ulmo and Aulë were as Kings; but Varda was the Queen of the Valar, and the spouse of Manwë, and her beauty was high and terrible and of great reverence. Yavanna was her sister, and Yavanna espoused Aulë; but Nienna dwells alone, even as does Ulmo. And these with Melkor are the Seven Great Ones of the Kingdom of Arda. }AINU-09 But{ think not, Ælfwine, that} the shapes wherein the AINU-10 Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And {I myself}, long years agone, in the land of the Valar {have seen }Yavanna has been seen in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.>
BoT-13<Ainulidale D §31 In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. BoT-14{And since, when the fires had been subdued}<Of Valinor and the two Trees But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued> or buried beneath the primeval hills{, there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the enlightenment of the Middle-earth } <Of Valinor and the two Trees the Valar perceived that the Earth was dark, save for the glimmer of the innumerable stars which Varda had made in the ages unrecorded of the labours of Eä. Aulë, therefore, at the prayer of Yavanna, wrought two mighty Lamps {[added: Illuin and Ormal]} for the lighting of Arda; and the Valar set them upon lofty pillars northward and southward in Middle-earth,> which he had built amid the Encircling Seas. Then Varda filled the lamps … so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.
Quote:
Here we would insert the picture with the editorial title ‘Grasses’, JRR Tolkien – Artist and Illustrator; picture no. 196
Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, … And beasts {[struck out: and birds]} came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, … for these things waited still their time in the bosom of {Palúrien}[Kementári]; but wealth there was of her imagining, … And there upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}.> BoT-15 <AAm But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.
Quote:
Here we would insert the picture ‘Floral Designs’, Pictures by JRR Tolkien; picture no. 45
And it came to pass that at last the Valar were content, …
Now Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aulë. …
Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil, …
Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the light of Illuin was dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew nought of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred>BoT-16<Ainulidale D §32{Thence he sent forth his power and turned again to evil much that had been well begun}; so that green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.> BoT-17 <MT; 2 The Valar therefore, when they became aware by the signs of evil that were seen upon Earth that Melkor had stolen back, sought in vain for him, though {Tulcas}[Tulkas] and Oromë went wide over Middle-earth even to the uttermost East. When they perceived that Melkor would now turn darkness and night to his purposes, as he had aforetime sought to wield flame, they were grieved; for BoT-18{it was a part of their design}[they saw now] that there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end.[footnote: For it is indeed of the nature of Eä and the Great History that naught may stay unchanged in time, and things which do so, or appear to do so, or endeavour to remain so, become a weariness, and are loved no longer (or are at best unheeded).] For by Night the Children of Arda should know Day, and perceive and love Light; and yet Night should also in its kind be good and blessed, being a time of repose, and of inward thought; and a vision also of things high and fair that are beyond Arda, but are veiled by the splendour of Anar. But Melkor would make it a time of peril unseen, of fear without form, an uneasy vigil; or a haunted dream, leading through despair to the shadow of Death.>
BoT-19 <Ainulidale D §32 And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren> BoT-20 <Ainulidale D §26; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood, and the malice that increased in him, that form was dark and terrible. … and the light of his eyes was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.> BoT-21 <AAm {But}And Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, … and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth.>
AINU-11 <Ainulidale D§27 Thus began the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults {we}[the Elves] know but little;{ for know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have}[has been] declared{ unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom{ we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were}[by whom they were] instructed{ by them}; but little would {they}[the Valar] ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee}[is told among the Eldar]: that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands, and Melkor destroyed them; … slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm. BoT-22 <AAm And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.>
BoT-23< LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; … Thus {he}[Melkor[/u] escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he BoT-25 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.BoT-26 <LQ2[footnote to the text: The chief of his fortresses was at Utumno in the North of Middle-earth; but he made also a fortress and armoury not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea, to resist any assault from Aman. This was called Angband and was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor.]>>
Comments:
BoT-01: If my memory is correct this title was agreed upon in the chapter structure thread were we discussed the split. The alternative was ‘Of the Beginning of Days’ from Sil77.

BoT-02: We begin here with a long part from Myths Transformed. It serves nicely as introduction and is the latest source for all this time. As long as it fits to the flat Earth cosmology that we are working in it should be useable.

BoT-03: In this editing it can be seen that Ainulindalë was our basis text. Since what we skip at the beginning was replaced with the more elaborated and later account from MT.

BoT-04: The §§ 25-27 of the Ainulindalë are used in the corresponding chapter of TftE. The global decision to skip Ælfwine leads to the farther changes in the beginning of this passage.

BoT-05, BoT-06 and BoT-07: Here AAm does provide some more fitting and phrases and some more details.

BoT-08: MT has here the most specific detail that Melkor was driven into the void outside Arda.

BoT-09: I think it important to tell that Melkor all the time desired Arda.

BoT-10: We are back to our basis text now.

BoT-11: An addition from an more arcane source. But nonetheless worth considering.

BoT-12: The seven great Ones of Arda are replaced in the Valaquenta the nine Aratar the high Ones of Arda. Therefore the passage here is skipt.

AINU-09 and AINU-10: The famous ‘Yavanna’ as a tree passage. For the long winding discussion leading to this editing look into the Ainulidalë thread.

BoT-13: Here we skip the end of the Ainulindalë with its short description of the first Battle and the frame story element of Ælfwine bring Pengolodh to speak farther and jump the beginning of Pengolodh detailed description of the first War.

BoT-14: LQ has a bit more of details here.

BoT-15: The feast on Almaren is best descript in [/b]AAm[/b].

BoT-16: I added here the information what it meant that the Spring of Arda was marred.

BoT-17: The search for Melkor, when the signs of evil are seen is a new element introduced in MT. But for me at least it makes a lot of sense.

BoT-18: This Element is more difficult. It comes clearly from a round earth version. It would nonetheless be nice if we could hold it. At least it is clear in all later writings that stopping time form causing changes (as with the Rings of Power) was considered a sin (a deed against the design of Eru). The building of the Lamps might already have come near to such a deed.

BoT-19, BoT-20 and BoT-21: For this § Three sources are mixed. Choosing from each the most detailed part.

AINU-11: Back to the basis text. But we have to remove the frame story elements here.

BoT-22: This is based on the maps, where after the fall of the lamps the three different continents Aman, Middle-earth and the Land of the Sun are build out of the full symmetric single land mass around the See of Almaren.

BoT-23, BoT-24: This sounds a bit redundant, but I what is given as action after the darkness and confusion seems worth the mix.

BoT-25: The text here was based on an older version of the story where Melkor attacked at once and build Utumno after the battle. There fore editorial change.

BoT-26: The Info about Angband is missing from the other used sources. And with that we also give the information that from this time on Sauron was no longer a spy for Melkor among the Valar, but openly sides with Melkor.

I think that many of these changes were already discussed in the Ainulindalë thread, before we decided to move the first War to the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion. The chapter as it stands know as well interferes with the rest of the original first chapter Of Valinor and the two Trees. Therefore I will not waited for the discussion of this chapter to be finished but posted that chapter as soon as I find the time to prepair the draft.

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Old 08-23-2017, 10:36 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
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Silmaril Thoughts

Having read through the changes, I have only a few comments:

In the second paragraph, the [sic] is in reference to the grammatically incorrect "being." it should be "beings" plural.

In the next paragraph:

Quote:
for he knew that to that kingship Ilúvatar designed to give the highest royalty in Eä, and under the rule of that throne to bring forth the Children of God.
"Children of God" should be "Children of Eru" or "Children of the One." Tolkien nowhere else uses "God" to refer to Eru, and this feels extremely out of character.

BoT-15: This addition is fine, but:

Quote:
Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil, and because of the light of Illuin they did not perceive the shadow in the North that was cast from afar by Melkor; for he was grown dark as the Night of the Void. And it is sung that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Oromë, and Vána robed [her] in her flowers, and she danced before the Valar upon the green grass of Almaren.
The bolded part contradicts the earlier assertion in Ainulindale that flowers had not yet been brought forth from the mind of Yavanna. It is a shame to lose the reference to Vana, but i think it is best to remove it.

BoT-18: This is indeed a problematic section for several reasons. It references a change in light which has not yet happened (as everything is still lit in unchanging day, and the only ill that has happened is the corruption of Melkor) and thus feels out of place. If it were to be included it should be moved to after the fall of the lamps. Even so, I think it too closely tied to the round earth version to be included, as it references day and night, and the sun and moon, long before such things existed. Therefore, I think it is best and safest simply to remove it.

BoT-20: This addition is fine but:

Quote:
And he descended upon Earth in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar,
The opening phrase is problematic, as in this restructuring he is already in Arda, and thus cannot be said to descend into it. maybe change "descended" to "arose". so it becomes "And he arose upon Arda in power..."

AINU-11: This entire segment until BoT-23 does not fit here. It pretty clearly refers to the original war of the Valar in Arda, as Melkor is said just after this to flee in the darkness and confusion after the fall of the lamps. Thus this whole section should be moved earlier. I would have it replace BoT-05,as it fits in quite nicely.

Those were the only things I noticed, the rest was quite wonderful!
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:05 PM   #3
Findegil
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Arcus Calion worte:
Quote:
In the second paragraph, the [sic] is in reference to the grammatically incorrect "being." it should be "beings" plural.
Sure, the question is do we corret being -> beings. This singular for plural case is not in being due to our editing. It is inehrent in the source text from JRR Tolkien. I would say it is a slip of the pen and should be corrected.

Children of God -> Children of ?: I agree that God should be changed. But I think that Children of Ilúvatar is the most natural replacement, or was it your desire to keep a difference by taking Eru?

BoT-15: What about: '..., and Vána robed her in her {flowers}[signs of spring], ...'?

BoT-18: As said in my comment, I am also hesitating with this addition. Probably we can work it into the chapter of the making of the sun and the Moon. What about using such a reduced version here:
Quote:
[BoT-17[/b]<[b}MT; 2[/b] ... When they perceived that Melkor would now turn darkness BoT-18{and night }to his purposes, as he had aforetime sought to wield flame, they were grieved; for it was a part of their design that{ there should be change and alteration upon Earth, and neither day perpetual nor night without end.[footnote: For it is indeed of the nature of Eä and the Great History that naught may stay unchanged in time, and things which do so, or appear to do so, or endeavour to remain so, become a weariness, and are loved no longer (or are at best unheeded).] For by Night}[in the dark] the Children of Arda should {know Day, and }perceive and love Light{; and yet Night should also in its kind be good and blessed, being a time of repose, and of inward thought; and a vision also of things high and fair that are beyond Arda, but are veiled by the splendour of Anar}. But Melkor would make it a {time}[state] of peril unseen, of fear without form, an uneasy vigil; or a haunted dream, leading through despair to the shadow of Death.>
BoT-20: Agreed.

AINU-11: I am not that sure, which conflict is here discribed. But nonetheless I agree to chift the §. But I would not repalce BoT-05 but arange the texts differntly:
Quote:
BoT-02 <MT, 2 ...
...
When therefore at last Melkor discovered the abiding place of Manwë and his friends he went thither in great haste, as a blazing fire. And finding that already great labours had been achieved without his counsel, he was angered, and desired to undo what was done or to alter it according to his own mind>BoT-03 <Ainulidale D {§23 So began their ... to his own desires and Purposes}; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom! And I name it unto myself!'
§24 But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, … And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar{, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart}.>
AINU-11 <Ainulidale D §27 Thus began the first battle of the Valar and Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults {we}[the Elves] know but little;{ for know thou, Ælfwine,} what {I have}[has been] declared{ unto thee} is come from the Valar themselves, with whom{ we of} the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and {we were}[by whom they were] instructed{ by them}; but little would {they}[the Valar] ever tell of the days of war ere the coming of the Elves. But this {said Rúmil in the end of the Ainulindalë which I have recounted to thee:}Bot-04 <Ainulindale D §31 This} tale {I have heard also among}[was learned from] the lore masters in ages past. {For they tell us that the}The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand.>{that the}The Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands, and Melkor destroyed them; … slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm.>BoT-05 <AAm And Melkor wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.> But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in BoT-06{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.}BoT-07 <AAm , but he turned a face of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas, and fled from the Earth} BoT-08 <MT; 2 {But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä)} and he was driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwë had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar.>{; and}Thereafter there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.> BoT-09<Ainulidale D §24 And {there was strife between Melkor and the Valar, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but} he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart.>
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:12 PM   #4
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I agree with all of those changes, they all look good.
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Old 09-23-2017, 04:34 PM   #5
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I found an addition worth considering while working on The Making of the Sun and the Moon ... chapter:
Quote:
... But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in BoT-06{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.}BoT-07 <AAm , but he turned a face of anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas, and fled from the Earth} BoT-08<MT; 2 {But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä)} and he was driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda. This is named the First Battle; and though Manwë had the victory, great hurt was done to the work of the Valar.> BoT-08.5<MT; 2; Outline It was in the wielding of flame that Tulkas {(? originally Vala of the Sun) }defeated {him}Melkor in the First Battle.> {; and}Thereafter there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.> ...
The information that it was in the wielding of flame that Tulkas overcome Melkor is only given in the outline.

In addition I found a better place to use a later part of BoT-17. So we must skip it here:
Quote:
... the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.> BoT-17 <MT; 2 The Valar therefore, when they became aware by the signs of evil that were seen upon Earth that Melkor had stolen back, sought in vain for him, though {Tulcas}[Tulkas] and Oromë went wide over Middle-earth even to the uttermost East.>
BoT-19 <Ainulidale D §32 And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, ...

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Last edited by Findegil; 09-23-2017 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 09-24-2017, 09:13 PM   #6
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agreed.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:35 PM   #7
gandalf85
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I'm new to this forum so I apologize if I am misinterpreting how to read the draft. Here are some suggestions:

Quote:
… And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar{, and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew to other regions and did there what he would, but he did not put the desire of the kingdom of Arda from his heart}.>
BoT-04 <Ainulidale D §29 {And when he had ended the Ainulindalë, such as Rúmil had made it, Pengoloð the Sage paused a while; and Ælfwine said to him:} Little{, you say, would}[ was told by] the Valar{ tell} to the Eldar of the days before their coming.{: but do not the wise among you know more of those ancient wars than Rúmil has here set forth? Or will you not tell me more of the Valar as they were when first your kindred beheld and knew them?
}{§30 And Pengoloð answered: … But some little more I may tell to thee now, since thou askest it of me.
§31 This}But this tale {I have heard also among}<was learned from> the lore masters in ages past. {For they tell us that the}The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. BoT-05 <AAm {And Melkor}He wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.>
So the text will go as follows: "And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar. Little was told by the Valar to the Eldar of the days before their coming. But this tale was learned from the lore masters in ages past. The war began..." The second and third sentences seem out of place. The Valar have already arrived on what will become Arda and started shaping it. I propose removing these sentences.

Quote:
The information that it was in the wielding of flame that Tulkas overcome Melkor is only given in the outline.
Are there any other references to Tulkas using fire? I've always imagined Melkor's primary element as fire, and using fire to overcome him seems bizarre.

Quote:
BoT-13<Ainulidale D §31 In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. BoT-14{And since, when the fires had been subdued}<Of Valinor and the two Trees But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued> or buried beneath the primeval hills{, there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the enlightenment of the Middle-earth } <Of Valinor and the two Trees the Valar perceived that the Earth was dark, save for the glimmer of the innumerable stars which Varda had made in the ages unrecorded of the labours of Eä.
This seems to contradict the paragraph starting "As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. …" Tolkien describes here how Illuvatar gifted the stars to Varda. She brought the stars with her to Eä, she didn't make them. Maybe just change this to "which Varda had brought".

Quote:
Aulë, therefore, at the prayer of Yavanna, wrought two mighty Lamps {[added: Illuin and Ormal]} for the lighting of Arda
It seems like the names of the lamps are being removed here? Illuin is referenced by name later, so it makes sense to introduce their names here.
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Old 09-25-2017, 07:51 PM   #8
ArcusCalion
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Silmaril

Welcome gandalf! It's nice to have another person around besides me and Findegil! I think I've been driving him a little crazy haha

To answer your points in order:

1. The "their coming" refers to the Elves. So the days before the coming of the Elves. It is not redundant therefore.

2. However weird it feels for Tulkas to use fire to defeat Melkor, it is what Tolkien wrote in his latest version of the story (Myths Transformed). Who are we to question him?

3. Iluvatar gifted the light to Varda which she used to make the stars. She is always the star-maker, not merely a transporter.

4. The names were removed here because later on in the draft they are formally named in the body of the text:

Quote:
Aulë, therefore, at the prayer of Yavanna, wrought two mighty Lamps {[added: Illuin and Ormal]} for the lighting of Arda; and the Valar set them upon lofty pillars northward and southward in Middle-earth,> which he had built amid the Encircling Seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, loftier far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named {[Foronte >]} Illuin; and the other was raised in the South, and it was named {[Hyarante >]} Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out ever the Earth so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.
I hope you'll stick around! We could use the help =)

Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo.
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Old 09-26-2017, 12:51 PM   #9
gandalf85
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Haha, I can definitely imagine you two driving each other crazy. I'm currently a PhD candidate in electrical engineering, so my free time oscillates wildly depending on when I have conferences/reports/presentations. However, this project is something I definitely think is worth the time put into it. I will try to contribute as much as I can.

1. Ahh, got it, I mistook who "their" was referring to.

2. I saw in the FAQ that preference is typically given to the most recent writing by Tolkien, but I feel like many of his later ideas are fundamentally problematic. For example, the idea that the Earth was always round. I'm sure you guys have debated this, are you sticking with the idea of the Earth first being flat then being reshaped after the drowning of Numenor? Either way, Tulkas using fire is a pretty minor point; I'm fine with it.

3. Got it, I guess I misinterpreted the text. I like that idea a lot more. The concept that Varda was simply a transporter seriously diminishes her status.

4. Ahh, I see. Yes, then I agree with removing the references to the names originally.

Random aside: I'm currently listening to the SilmFilm podcast by Corey Olsen (https://silmfilm.mythgard.org/). It's really interesting.
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:48 PM   #10
Findegil
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First of all welcome to this quite part of the Barrow-Downs gandalf85! The members of the project have always been thankful for any intrusion from outside, and as AcrusCalion has already mention additional opinions are very much needed at the time being. Feel yourself invited to post in any thread with the questions or suggestions that come to mind.

Since ArcusCalion answered most of your questions perfectly I only will add my to pence on Tulkas and the weilding of flame: I can understand your reservations. In the outline from Myths Transformed Tulkas is as well associated with the Sun being considered as the Valar of the Sun replacing Arien. But for me it makes perfect sense that Melkor in that war of the demiurgical powers is defeated especially in the field on which up to that point he only had specialised. Beside that Tulkas is descript as the 'good side of violence'. So we have to assume that in this war a lot of collateral damage occurred.

About 2: Yes, that is what the project decided to do a long time ago: a realy falt earth until the drowning of Numenor at which point the earth was reshaped to be round. But none of us was around at that time. At that time only jallanite voted for a round earth version. I would have supported him, but when I joined the decision was long done and as today the choice in such fundamentel decisions is either to join and take these desisions as they are, or not to join.

Two farther fundamental decision of this kind are: no frame story, that means all references to Eriol/Ælfwine have to be removed and no changes for reasons of 'style'.

Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 09-27-2017 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 09-26-2017, 04:27 PM   #11
gandalf85
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Thanks for the welcome Findegil! I personally would have voted for the flat Earth which was reshaped after Numenor was drowned. I just think it's a very unique and interesting part of the mythology. I know Tolkien's final words on the matter were that he preferred the Earth to always be round, but his primary issue seems to be that a flat Earth and the creation of the sun/moon is "astronomically absurd" based on our current understanding of science. However, I think the story of the creation of the sun and the moon is absolutely beautiful and it ties into one of the major themes in Tolkien's works. Even though the trees die and there is sadness, from this tragedy comes hope in the form of the sun and the moon. Also, the entire universe is absurd based on our understanding of science, so I don't buy into that argument. I can justify disagreeing with Tolkien because he spent his entire life working under the flat Earth principle and then it wasn't until very near the end of his life that he decided to change it, not because it makes the story more beautiful (in fact it does the opposite) but on a "scientific" basis.

The frame story is a more complicated question in my mind. I could probably be persuaded either way.

Last edited by gandalf85; 09-26-2017 at 04:34 PM. Reason: not to double post
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