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Old 06-18-2004, 03:02 PM   #1
The Perky Ent
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White Tree The Sight of Gandalf

There might be a thread like this, so I apologize if I'm wasting your time, but I have a question. In ROTK, when Gandalf asked Aragorn how they'd have any clue if Frodo was alive or not. Well, from that, you'd assume Gandalf's guess was as good as anybody else's. Then, after Pelennor, and Frodo and Sam have left Cirith Ungol and enter Gorgoroth, (when Gimli sits in the stewards chair ) Gandalf says
Quote:
Frodo has passed beyond my sight.
That implies that Gandalf could sense Frodo and had something more than a guess. What's up with that? Does he like taunting Aragorn, or was it a "script spasm"? Just wondering
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Old 06-18-2004, 04:54 PM   #2
Gil-Galad
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i think its how Gandy judges Frodos actions...frodo is without a guide in a different land, so probaly gandalf just doesn't know what frodo is doing, if hes dead or if hes fallen into darkness keep in mind that gandalf doesn't know gollum is with him
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Old 06-29-2004, 04:41 PM   #3
Lûthien Nénharma
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Very Well put.

I personally think that Gandalf just isn't trusting his own judgement on frodo's behave, because he does not want to despair but niether does not want to hope.
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Old 06-29-2004, 07:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
i think its how Gandy judges Frodos actions...frodo is without a guide in a different land, so probaly gandalf just doesn't know what frodo is doing, if hes dead or if hes fallen into darkness keep in mind that gandalf doesn't know gollum is with him
Well put, although (at least according to the movie) Gandalf does know that Gollum is with them right now, because Faramir told him 'everything' earlier in the movie. Actually, at this point Gollum isn't with Frodo & Sam, but Gandalf is still thinking that he is. But anyway, the general idea of your post was put quite well.
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Old 06-30-2004, 12:13 AM   #5
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Well I just always thought that Gandalf knew in some way where Frodo and Sam were because of some kind of Gandalf sixth sense. He is of course very powerful, and I thought that since he is so powerful he just kind of has an idea about what is going on.

But, yes, I could still be extremely wrong.
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Old 07-02-2004, 02:37 AM   #6
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The only time in ROTK (in the book) I can find that Gandalf has 'sight' is when he sees with second sight what takes place with the Witch King.
Quote:
But Gandalf's face was grave and sad, and bidding Beregond and Pippin to take Faramir into the Houses of Healing, he went up on to the walls nearby; and there like a figure carven in white he stood in the new sun and looked out. And he beheld with the sight that was given to him all that had befallen; and when Éomer rode out from the forefront of his battle and stood beside those who lay upon the field, he sighed, and he cast his cloak about him again, and went from the walls.
And after trawling these boards for a number of months, I've finally realised why Gandalf asked for 3 eagles to take him to Mount Doom. He thought Gollum could still be with the Hobbits. So he did not have any 'sight' there either.

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'Then come, and let your brother go with us, and some other of your folk who is most swift! For we have need of speed greater than any wind, outmatching the wings of the Nazgûl.'
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:49 AM   #7
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White Tree yizzle

fo chizzle mah nizzle I was hanging around invisible killing orcs to help the fellowship all along , THe truth of the matter is i can see as far as the sun reaches so i was telling gandalf what frodo was doing the entire time people. He wanted to look good for everyone so i thought id give him somthing to work with


I am Gandalfs immortal brother Garythewhite, if you have any questions or comments you can find me at the local at the prancing pony
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Old 07-02-2004, 10:52 AM   #8
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I can't believe I didn't realize the three eagles thing before...ah well.
If Gandalf possesses 'sight' of any kind, I would think it would be reduced to just knowing that Frodo is alive; but when he (Frodo) passed out of Gandalf's 'sight', that meant he was drawing close to Mt. Doom...where I doubt Gandalf's spirit would like to even be temporarily, As I suppose the case would be to 'sense' Frodo's life energy.
Obviously it wasn't working to well around Mt. Doom; he took three eagles instead of just two. Which, if anyone argues, makes sense; a hobbit is small...he doesn't need a whole Eagle to himself.
We have to remember; he is a Maia, after all...but no, no foresight, no elven seeing...just being able to know, barely, if the person is alright.
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Old 07-02-2004, 12:56 PM   #9
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No wait the Eagles would carry a hobbit each. I mean in The Hobbit each eagle carries a separate dwarf and they're only slightly larger than Hobbits.
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Old 07-02-2004, 03:10 PM   #10
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It's not like Gandalf knew how skinny the hobbits would be, anyway.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:30 PM   #11
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White Tree Gandalf

As far as the movie goes, it would seem that during the scene in Meduseld where Gandalf is troubled about no news of Frodo, he paused and could almost sense for sure that Frodo was still alive. Aragorn saw this, but Gandalf told him that this vision, this feeling of Frodo still being alive has gone away, he cannot tell one way or the other.

As far as the book goes, I believe there were other parts where we learned that Gandalf had/has an extra sense, a perception beyond mortal normalities. After healing Theoden, did he not look out and see a dim flame in the perils of Emyn Muil? Or was that Legolas's vision?
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Old 07-02-2004, 10:36 PM   #12
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Kath, the point with the Eagles is that Gandalf still had some semblance of hope that the poor creature could be saved somehow.
Besides, I don't think Gandalf would've had a problem with hauling one hobbit up onto the Eagles back.
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Old 07-06-2004, 10:06 PM   #13
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I really don't know how this conversation got on the subject of the eagles, but back to Gandalf's sight. Here is what I think the line meant. People would be suprised on the power of the human mind and intuition. What I think Gandalf was doing was just looking at the cause and effects. He looked at what Sauron was doing to find his ring and used his brain to figure out what Frodo was doing. Then when Sauron pulled his army back to Mordor Gandalf said Frodo had moved beyond his sight because Sauron was just sitting there. There were no effects so a cause could not be calculated.

Believe me or not, I don't care, but this is what I see everyday in the real world.
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Old 07-06-2004, 10:50 PM   #14
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I see the scene between Aragorn and Gandalf as a sort of "passing of the torch" for lack of a better word, because it is Aragorn giving Gandalf solace as opposed to the other way around. It was as if Aragorn was finally stepping into the "shoes" of the king he would become. Less on what is actually said, and more on who said it and to whom.
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Old 07-07-2004, 12:01 PM   #15
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The topic went off in the eagles direction because this was used as an example by me of where Gandalf didn't possess any 2nd sight. ie he had no idea whether there would be 1, 2 or 3 people to pick up on mount doom, so he obviously went for all 3.

we always fall into this type of conversation when we talk about a particular bit of the film where Jackson & co have invented the scene/ conversation, as he did in this case.

Change any part of tolkien's plot and the cracks begin to appear. It shows what a great plot the book itself has. I mean Tolkien spent 15 years or so of his life writing it, so this is one of the reasons why the plot is so tight, and works so well.

Add in little changes to conversations, and big changes like Frodo at Osgiliath, then the arguments begin into exactly what the character/ scene meant. (We've seen a similar thread over the past few weeks where gandalf speaks to aragorn and seems surprised that Sam is with Frodo. An easy way for Jackson to tie 2 scenes together, but this adds a certain bit of confusion for us book nerds, and therefore we spend a lot of time trying to figure out why Gandalf felt this way, where in 'book reality' he didn't.........)

Not that I'm dissing movie rotk by the way, it is the best film ever made bar none.
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Old 07-07-2004, 02:30 PM   #16
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meh, i expected more in ROTK...
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