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Old 10-05-2017, 06:03 PM   #1
Findegil
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12 Of the Flight of the Noldor

This is the first draft of the chapter 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor.

Our basis text is that of Annals of Aman given in HoMe 10. Were ever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
FoN-EX-xx for Flight of the Noldor, Expansions

FoN-LQ-xx for Flight of the Noldor, for changes that bring additions from the Quenta Silamrillion to the last state in which Tolkien worked in the Later Quenta.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new these is indicated by a missing > at the end of the and a missing < at the beginning of the next.

Quote:
12 Of the Flight of the Noldor
Of the Speech of Fanor upon Tna
129 When it was known that Morgoth had escaped ... Mindon burned pale in the gloom. FoN-EX-01<QS Fogs and shadows now drifted in from the sea through the pass of FoN-LQ-01{Kor}<LQ Tirion>, and all shapes were confused, as the light of the Trees perished. A murmur was heard in FoN-LQ-02{Elfland}<LQ Kalakiryan>, and the Teleri wailed beside the sea.>
130 Then suddenly Fanor appeared ... and he scorned the decrees of the Valar.
132 'Why, O my people,' he cried, ... Nay, rot, mildew, and toadstool.'
133 Long he spoke, ... No other race shall oust us!'
134 Then Fanor swore a terrible oath. Straightway his seven sons leaped to his side and each took the selfsame oath; and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches.
'Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
shall defend him from Fanor, and Fanor's kin,
whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
finding keepeth or afar casteth
a Silmaril. This swear we all:
death we will deal him ere Day's ending,
woe unto world's end! Our word hear thou,
Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.
On the holy mountain hear in witness
and our vow remember, Manw and Varda!'
Thus spoke {Maidros}[Maedros] and Maglor, and {Celegorn}[Celgorm], Curufin and {Cranthir}[Caranthir], {Damrod}[Amarthan] and {Driel}[Amros], princes of the Noldor. But by that name none should swear an oath, good or evil, nor in anger call upon such witness, and many quailed to hear the fell words. For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper or oathbreaker to the world's end.
135 Fingolfin, and his son Turgon, ... But of his own FoN-EX-02 {sons}[House] Orodreth alone spoke in like manner; for {Inglor}[Finrod] was with Turgon his friend, whereas Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled her heart, and she yearned to see the wide untrodden lands and to rule there a realm maybe at her own will. For FoN-EX-03 {youngest}<editorial addition one of the younger> of the House of Finw she came into the world west of the Sea, and knew yet nought of the unguarded lands. FoN-EX-04 <UT But in{In} Fanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part> FoN-EX-05 <editorial bridge, but she left Tirion at once and went back to Aqualond> Of like mind was Fingon Fingolfin's son, being moved also by Fanor's words, though he loved him little; and with Fingon as ever stood Angrod and {Egnor}[Aegnor], sons of {Finrod}[Finarfin]. But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers.
136 In the end after long debate Fanor prevailed, ... began to prepare for the marching forth.
FoN-EX-06 <Shibboleth When it became clear that Fanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever, {she}[his wife Nerdanel] came to him before the host started on its northward march, and begged that Fanor should leave her the two youngest, the twins, or one at least of them. He replied: 'Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aul, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of our children. For they are determined to go with their father.' Then Nerdanel was angry and she answered: 'You will not keep all of them. One at least will never set foot on Middle-earth.' 'Take your evil omens to the Valar who will delight in them,' said Fanor. 'I defy them'. So they parted.>
137 Little foresight could there be for those who dared to take so dark a road. ... for they did not yet believe that Fanor could hold the host of the Noldor to his will.
138 And indeed when Fanor began the marshalling of the Noldor for their setting out, ... nor leave them to the rash counsels of Fanor. FoN-EX-07 <QS77 Nor did he forget his words before the throne of Manw.> With Fingolfin went {Finrod}[Finarfin] also and for like reason; but most loath was he to depart.
139 It is recorded that ... For they were indeed a valiant people.
140 But even as the trumpet sang ... had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'
141 But Fanor laughed, ... Or at the least: freedom!'
142 Then turning to the herald he cried: ... Farewell!'
143 In that hour the voice of Fanor grew so great ... a solace and a burden on the road.
Of the first Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor
144 Now Fanor led the Noldor northward, ... save with the aid of ships.
145 Therefore Fanor now resolved to persuade the Teleri, ... as indeed they had not{.} FoN-EX-08 <QS and he brooked no delay, fearing lest many should desert him. Yet they must at some time cross the seas, albeit far to the North where they were narrower; for further still, to those places where the FoN-LQ-03{western land}<LQ Westland> and Middle-earth touched nigh, he feared to venture. There he knew was FoN-LQ-04{Helkarakse}<LQ Helkarax>, the Strait of Grinding Ice, where the frozen hills ever broke and shifted, sundering and clashing again together.> He hastened then to Alqualond, and spoke to the Teleri as he had spoken in Tirion.
146 But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say. They were grieved indeed at the going of their kinsfolk and long friends, but would rather dissuade them than aid them; and FoN-EX-09{no ship would they lend,}<QS {And} their white ships with their white sails they would neither FoN-EX-10{give}[lend] nor sell, for they prized them dearly, nor did they hope ever again to make others so fair and swift.>{nor}Nor would they help in the building, against the will of the Valar. ... and that the night would pass yet to new dawn.
147 Then Fanor grew wroth, ... had not the Noldor carved out your haven and toiled on your walls.'
148 But Olw answered: ... whose like we shall not make again.'
149 Thereupon Fanor left him, and sat beyond the walls brooding darkly, until his host was assembled. FoN-EX-11 <LT Now Swanhaven was like a bason of quiet waters, save that towards the eastward and the seas the ring of rocks that enclosed it sank somewhat, and their did the sea pierce through, so that there was a mighty arch of living stone. So great was this that save of the mightiest ships two might pass therethrough, one going out maybe and another seeking inward to the quiet blue waters of the haven, nor would the mast-tops come nigh to grazing on the rock. Not much of the light of the Trees came thither aforetime by reason of the wall, wherefore was it lit ever with a ring of lamps of gold, and lanterns there were too of many colours tokening the wharves and landings of the different houses; but through the arch the pale waters of the Shadowy Seas might distantly be glimpsed, lit faintly with the shining of the Trees. Very beautiful was that harbor to gaze upon, what time the white fleets came shimmering home and the troubled waters broke the mirrored radiance of the lamps into rippling lights, weaving strange patterns of many twinkling lines. But now were all those vessels lying still, and a deep gloom was settled on the place at the fading of the Trees. FoN-EX-12{
Of the Solosimpi none would hearken to the wild words of the Noldoli, save a few that might be counted on two hands; and}And so did {that folk}the Noldor wander unhappily northward along the shores of Eldamar, even till they came to the cliff-tops that gazed down upon Swanhaven, and therefrom had the Solosimpi of old cut winding stairs in the rock leading down to the harbour's edge. Now northward thence the way was very rugged and evil>.
FoN-EX-13 <LT Behold, the counsel of Feanor {is}was that by no means {can}could that host hope to win swiftly along the coast save by the aid of ships; "and these," said he, "an the shore-elves will not give them, we must take".>When he deemed that his strength was enough he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there FoN-EX-14 <LT but the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] said them nay, yet for the great host of the {Gnome-folk}[Noldor] they did not as yet resist; but a new wrath awoke there between Eldar and Eldar.> {and}And the Noldor began to take {them}the ships away by force. FoN-EX-15 <LT So did the {Noldoli}[Noldor] embark all their womenfolk and children and a great host beside upon those ships>. But the Teleri withstood {him}them stoutly, and they cast many of the Noldor into the sea. FoN-EX-16 <LT {and}And casting {them}the ships loose {they}the Noldor oared them with a great multitude of oars towards the seas. Then did a great anger blaze in the hearts of the Shoreland Pipers, seeing the theft of those vessels that their cunning and long labours had fashioned, and some there were that the {Gods}[Valar] had made of old on Tol Eressea as has been recounted, wondrous and {magic}[entchanted] boats FoN-EX-17 {, the first that ever were}. So sprang up suddenly a voice among them: "Never shall these thieves leave the Haven in our ships", and all those of the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] that were there ran swiftly atop of the cliff-wall to where the archway was wherethrough that fleet must pass, and standing there they shouted to the {Gnomes}[Noldor] to return; but these heeded them not and held ever on their course, and the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] threatened them with rocks and strung their elfin bows. Seeing this and believing war already to be kindled came now those of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] who might not fare aboard the ships but whose part it was to march along the shores, and they sped behind the Solosimpi, until coming suddenly upon them nigh the Haven's gate.> Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships, and about the lamplit quays and piers of the Haven, and even upon the great arch of its gate. Thrice the folk of Fanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side FoN-EX-18 <UT , indeeed {she}Galadriel {with Celeborn }fought heroically in defence of Alqualond against the assault of the Noldor.> FoN-EX-19 <LT {they}[b]But the Noldor[/u] slew {them}the Teleri bitterly or cast them in the sea; and so first perished the Eldar neath the weapons of their kin, and that was a deed of horror. Now the number of the {Solosimpi}[Teleri] that fell was very many, and of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] not a few, for they had to fight hard to win their way back from those narrow cliff-top paths, and many of the shoreland folk hearing the affray were gathered in their rear{.}>; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by FoN-EX-20{Fingon}[Arakno] with the foremost people of Fingolfin. These coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and they rushed in ere they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel: some deemed indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor, at the bidding of the Valar.
150 Thus at last the Teleri were overcome, and a great part of their mariners that dwelt in Alqualond were wickedly slain{.} FoN-EX-21 <LT {At length however it is done, and all those ships have passed out to the wide seas, and the Noldoli fared far away}, but the little lamps {are}were broken and the Haven {is}was dark and very still, save for the faint sound of tears.> For the Noldor were become fierce and desperate, and the Teleri had less strength, and were armed mostly with light bows only. Then the Noldor drew away their white ships, and manned their oars as best they might, and rowed them north along the coast. And Olw called upon Oss, but he came not; for he had been summoned to {Valmar}[Valimar] to the vigil and council of the {gods}[Valar]; and it was not permitted by the Valar that the Flight of the Noldor should be hindered by force. But Uinen wept for the mariners of the Teleri; and the sea rose in wrath against the slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned. Of the Kin-slaying at Alqualond more is told in that lament which is named Noldolant, The Fall of the Noldor, which Maglor made ere he was lost.
{1496
}151 Nonetheless the greater part of the Noldor escaped, and when the storm was over they held on their course, some by ship, some by land; but the way was long and ever more evil as they went forward. FoN-EX-22 <UT Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Fanor, set {sail}out with the people of Finarfin into the darkness without waiting for Manw's leave, which would undoubtedly have been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return.>
> After {they}the Noldor had marched for a great while ... that bade them stand and give ear.
152 All halted and stood still, ... shall pass over the mountains.
153 'Lo! on the House of Fanor ... The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
154 'Behold! Ye have spilled the blood ... The Valar have spoken.'
155 Then many quailed. ... And the doom of Fanor was true-spoken also.
156 But in that hour {Finrod}[Finarfin] forsook the march, ... since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualond. Moreover Fingon and Turgon FoN-EX-23 <LQ , though they had no part in that deed,> were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was forespoken began its work.
{1497
}157 The Noldor came at last far into the North of Arda, ... and there none yet had dared to tread save the Valar only and {Ungoliant}[Ungoliant].
158 Therefore Fanor halted ... cursing Fanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar. FoN-EX-24 <Shibboleth For Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finw to olofinw{ before the Exiles reached Middle-earth}. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finw, and so enraged Fanor.> FoN-EX-25 <Shibboleth {As he }Then said Fanor with some justice: 'My brother's claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?' But Fingolfin answered: 'I have not rejected the Valar, nor their authority in all matters where it is just for them to use it. But if the Eldar were given free choice to leave Middle-earth and go to Aman, and accepted it because of the loveliness and bliss of that land, their free choice to leave it and return to Middle-earth, when it has become dark and desecrated, cannot be taken away. Moreover I have an errand in Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us. Fanor seeks first his stolen treasures.'> But Fanor, knowing all that was said, took counsel with his sons. ... already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor.
159 Therefore it came into the hearts of Fanor ... and went aboard, and put out to sea, and left Fingolfin in Araman. FoN-EX-26 <Shibboleth /The claim of Fingolfin/ so enraged Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.> And since the sea was there narrow, ... and ran into Dor-lmin.
160 But when they were landed, ... Fingon the valiant?'
161 Then Fanor laughed as one fey, ... if they can find no other!{ Let the ships burn!}'
FoN-EX-27 <Shibboleth {In the night}[When the host rested] Fanor, filled with malice, aroused Curufin, and with him and a few of those most close to Fanor in obedience he went to the ships and set them all aflame; and the dark sky was red as with a terrible dawn. All the camp was roused, and Fanor returning said: 'Now at least I am certain that no faint-heart or traitor among you will be able to take back even one ship to the succour of Fingolfin and his folk.'>
162 Then {Maidros}[Maedros] {alone} stood aside{, but Fanor and his sons set fire in the white ships of the Teleri.} FoN-EX-28 <Shibboleth and {But} all save few were dismayed, because there were many things still aboard that they had not yet brought ashore, and the ships would have been useful for further journeying. They were still far north and had purposed to sail southward to some better haven.
{In the morning}[When] the host was mustered,{ but} of Fanor's seven sons only six were to be found. Then Ambarussa went pale with fear. 'Did you not then rouse Ambarussa my brother (whom you called Ambarto)?' he said. 'He would not come ashore to sleep, {(}he said{) }, in discomfort.' But it is thought (and no doubt Fanor guessed this also) that it was in the mind of Ambarto to sail his ship back {[?}afterwards{]} and rejoin Nerdanel; for he had been much {[?}shocked{]} by the deed of his father.
'That ship I destroyed first,' said Fanor (hiding his own dismay). 'Then rightly you gave the name to the youngest of your children,' said Ambarussa, 'and Umbarto "the Fated" was its true form. Fell and fey are you become.' And after that no one dared speak again to Fanor of this matter.>
So in that place which was called Losgar at the outlet of the Firth of Drengist ended in a great burning bright and terrible the fairest vessels that ever sailed the sea. And Fingolfin and his people saw the light afar off red beneath the clouds. This was the first-fruits of the Kinslaying and the Doom of the Noldor.
163 Then Fingolfin knew that he was betrayed, ... Few of the deeds of the Noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardihood or in woe. FoN-EX-29 <Shibboleth There Turgon had himself come near to death in the bitter waters when he attempted to save {her}[ Elenw, his wife] and his daughter Idril, whom the breaking of treacherous ice had cast into the cruel sea. Idril he saved; but the body of Elenw was covered in fallen ice{.}> FoN-EX-30<Shibboleth and Turgon was thereafter unappeasable in his enmity for Fanor and his sons.> Many there perished, and it was with a lessened host that Fingolfin set foot at last upon the Northlands of Endar. Little love for Fanor or his sons had those that then marched behind him, and blew their trumpets in Middle-earth at the first rising of the Moon.
FoN-EX-01: This passage is missing from AAm.

FoN-LQ-01 & FoN-LQ-02: Bringing QS to LQ.

FoN-EX-02: Orodreth is no longer a son of Finarfin but a grandson. We might discuss if he as the only third generation kin of Finws family spoke at all in this debate in Tirion.

FoN-EX-03: Galadriel is most probably no longer the youngest in the Hous of Finw, since Celebrimbor, Idril and Orodreth are all third generation. Celebrimbor as the son of Curufin might have been older and Idril might not yet have been born but at least Orodreth as son of her brother would nearly for sure be younger.

FoN-EX-04: Here I added a part of what I named source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn.

FoN-EX-05: If Galadriel should fight against the Feanorians in Aqualond Galadriel can not leave Tirion with the other Noldor, therefore these addition.

FoN-EX-06: This addition from Shibboleth needs to be placed here.

FoN-EX-07: I didnt found any other source for this, but I think it should be taken up into the text.

FoN-EX-08: This passages from LQ is specially interesting by showing Feanor fearing Helkarax.

FoN-LQ-03 & FoN-LQ-04: Bringing QS to LQ.

FoN-EX-09: QS does put much more emphasis on the singularity oft he Telerin ships.

FoN-EX-10: Here I mixed the lend from AAm into the text of LQ.

FoN-EX-11: This description of Aqualond is worth to be taken, We can of course discuss if this is the right place, but I think it is, because it is reffered to later in this chapter.

FoN-EX-12: We already told the reaction of the Teleri, so this has to go.

FoN-EX-13: LT adds some direct speech here.

FoN-EX-14 & FoN-EX-15 & FoN-EX-16: Here I mixed the accounts of the start oft he battle. The goal was to keep the story line as in AAm but taking up fitting details from LT.

FoN-EX-17: Having heard of Crdans attemps to build ships even to driven them on the sea of Rhn the ships of the Teleri can no longer be called the first ever to have been.

FoN-EX-18: Again source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. But I did not take up the rescue of the ship. In that way it is open if Galadriel had already built a ship or not.

FoN-EX-19: The detail that the Noldor had to fight their way back from the arc oft he haeven is only found in LT.

FoN-EX-20: See FoN-EX-23. If Fingon is not involved, the Arakno is the most candidate to take that roll, as he was most eager of the brothers.

FoN-EX-21: The sad picture of the silent heaven with the broken lamps, I found to moving to be left out.

FoN-EX-22: I added here again a part of source D from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. It does here provide the information what Galadriel did, so we have to edit it.

FoN-EX-23: An addition from LQ that makes clear that the princes were guiltyless.

FoN-EX-24, FoN-EX-25 & FoN-EX-26: Fingolfin anrageing Feanor by claiming the kingship of their father.

FoN-EX-27 & FoN-EX-28: Here we burn Feanors youngest with the ships.

FoN-EX-29 & FoN-EX-30: Her we add Elenws death and Turgon reactions to it.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:16 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
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This was a very nice draft, and I have very few comments. Everything to which I do not respond, I agree to.

FoN-LQ-02: It should be Calacirya, as per LotR.

FoN-EX-02: I would leave him in, with the change you made. He is an important figure, even if less than the others.

FoN-EX-05: I do not agree with your logic there. If there was fighting she could easily have fought against Feanor and been left on the shore to march with the others. I see no compelling reason to include such a drastic editorial addition.

FoN-LQ-04: Agreed, but it should be Helcarax, both here and subsequently.

FoN-EX-11: This is the perfect place for this

FoN-EX-18: This is good, but the insertion is awkward, as it refers tomany dying and then says "indeed ..." but as Galadriel did not die, this is incorrect. I would start the insertion at "Galadriel" and prefix it to the following sentence, like so:
Quote:
slain upon either side. FoN-EX-18 <UT {, indeed she}Galadriel {with Celeborn }fought heroically in defense of Alqualond against the assault of the Noldor {.}> FoN-EX-19 <LT {they}, but the Noldor slew {them}the Teleri bitterly .....
FoN-EX-20: If it is Arakano that is to be used (which is a risky change imo) it should be given as Argon, not Arakano, as all the Noldorin princes' names are given in Sindarin form.

Everything else, I agree with, but the text has "Endar" for "Endor" and should be changed.
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:11 PM   #3
ArcusCalion
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I have found two more additions from the Shibboleth of Feanor:

In the first part, after the hosts depart from Tirion:
Quote:
.... Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. FoN-EX-07.5 <SF {Fanor was deprived of the leadership, and the}The greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin, the eldest son of Indis. Fingolfin was his father’s son, tall, dark, and proud, as were most of the Noldor, and in the end in spite of the enmity between him and Fanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor.> Of these Fingon ....
and at the very last paragraph:
Quote:
.... and by {Inglor}[Finrod] and Galadriel the valiant and fair, they dared to pass into the untrodden North, and finding no other way they endured at last the terror of the {Helkarax}[Helcarax] and the cruel hills of ice. FoN-EX-28.5 <SF {and once she}Once Galadriel had set foot upon that road of exile, she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fanor in defense of her mother’s kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could.> Few of the deeds of the Noldor ....
The first gives some more contxt to the kingship debate of Fingolfin and Feanor, and the latter gives more of Galadriel's motivations in coming to Middle-earth after the Kinslaying.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 10-07-2017 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:35 AM   #4
ArcusCalion
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Here's a brief thought i had. If we were to include Tolkien's unfinished Flight of the Noldor poem, we should do so in this chapter. Should we do so?
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:07 PM   #5
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FoN-LQ-02 and FoN-LQ-04: Agreed I forgot to introduce the general change.

FoN-EX-02: Okay for me.

FoN-EX-05: Well no other member of the House of Finarfin or his following were involved in the fight at Aqualond. Beside Feanor and his people only the vanguard of the people of Fingolfin how were the second in the march colon took part in the fight. If Galadriel left Tiriron with her father and brethren than she would not have seen anything of the action, only the final result. Therefore it is no question that she did depart from Tirion on her own. Bu t we might debate if it is necessary to point that out explicitly.

FoN-EX-18: Agreed.

FoN-EX-20: It is either Arakano/Argon or we have to leave out all princes. As for using Argon, I have already said that the Shibboleth tells that the character was himself never known under that name, so I dont think we can use it to address him.

FoN-EX-07.5: Nice find, I agree to take it up. But I observed that we might change after that insert Fingon to Arakno/Argon in correspondence to FoN-EX-20 and his description in the SF as the most impetuous of the brethren. I will call that change FoN-EX-07.6

FoN-EX-28.5: Nice find, but I think this would be better placed earlier:
Quote:
156 But in that hour {Finrod}[Finarfin] forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the house of Fanor, because of his kinship with Olw of Alqualond; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Tna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and {Finrod}[Finarfin] was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his FoN-EX-22.5 {sons}[children] were not with him, for <SF {and once she}once Galadriel had set foot upon that road of exile, she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fanor in defense of her mothers kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could.> {they}And Finrafins sons would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fanor, and fearing to face the doom of the {gods}[Valar], since not all of them had been guiltless of the kinslaying at Alqualond. Moreover Fingon and Turgon FoN-EX-23 <LQ , though they had no part in that deed,> were bold and fiery of heart and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was forespoken began its work.
The Flight of the Noldoli from Valinor: You are right that if we want to include the poem or parts of it then here is the place. When I made my draft, I considered the poem not worth the effort without re-reading it. The texts I used are much later then the poem. And we do not prefer poem against prosa. I have now re-read the poem but think still that the younger texts are not in anyway less detailed. And the integration of the poem seems very difficult to me.

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Old 10-13-2017, 02:32 PM   #6
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FoN-EX-05: I see this logic, and I agree, but I still feel that such an addition is not warranted, and probably breaks the rules of the project. If we say nothing, it can be assumed by the reader without much difficulty.

FoN-EX-20: I agree to use Argon for the instance, but I am still unsure about the name. I suppose it would be good to have Aiwendil or gandalf to comment on this one.

FoN-EX-7.6: Sounds good to me.

FoN-EX-28.5: This is much better, you're right!

Poem: Yes, you are right. We can simply include it in the poem section in Volume III.
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:56 PM   #7
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Just found this while editing Q&E:

Quote:
as the mists of Araman wrapped the distant mountains of Valinor from the sight of the Noldor, Fanor raised his hands in token of rejection and cried: 'I go. Neither in light or shadow will I look upon you again, Dahanigwishtilgūn.' So it was recorded, though the writers of the histories no longer knew what he meant. For which reason the strange word may have been ill transmitted. But even so it still bears some likeness to Taniquetil
I think this should be added in right after the last paragraph before the subheading "Of the First Kin-Slaying of the Noldor"

Quote:
FoN-EX-07.7 <Q&E {as}As the mists of Araman wrapped the distant mountains of Valinor from the sight of the Noldor, Fanor raised his hands in token of rejection and cried: 'I go. Neither in light or shadow will I look upon you again, Dahanigwishtilgūn.' FoN-EX-07.8 [Footnote: So it was recorded, though the writers of the histories no longer knew what he meant. For which reason the strange word may have been ill transmitted. But even so it still bears some likeness to Taniquetil.]>

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Old 12-09-2017, 03:00 AM   #8
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I had inserted before hhe cross the sea with the ships in the north of araman. And directly change the word for Taniquetil.
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:19 AM   #9
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To change teh word to Taniquetil is to much of a liberty for me, but I like to the idea of taking this up. But the position where to put it must be discussed.

I don't think that even without mist the Taniquetil could be seen from northern Araman where the Noldor halted and debated and from where Feanor took the ships to cross Belegar. So I do not see that gondowe's positioning of the passage is possible.

I find ArcusCalion's positioning more probalbe, but I would postpone it a view more sentences. As already mentioned for the passage to work the Taniquetil must have been at least in clear weather conditions to be viewable from the geographic point reached by Faenor at that time. As long as he is within Calacirya, I don't think he could see the summit at all, being to near to the cheer walls at the foot of the mountian. Reaching Aqualond could also be to late since the northern branch of the Pelori probably would block the view. So I think he must be on the northern coast of the Bay of Eldamar. Therefore I would position it as follwos:
Quote:
144 Now Fanor led the Noldor northward, because his first purpose was to follow Morgoth. Moreover, Tna beneath Taniquetil was set nigh to the girdle of Arda, and there the Great Sea was immeasurably wide, whereas ever northward the sundering seas grew narrower, as the waste-land of Araman and the coasts of Middle-earth drew together. FoN-EX-07.7 <Q&E {Most significant, they cite from an ancient legend of the flight the tale that as}As the mists of Araman wrapped the distant mountains of Valinor from the sight of the Noldor, Fanor raised his hands in token of rejection and cried: 'I go. Neither in light or shadow will I look upon you again, Dahanigwishtilgūn.' So it was recorded, though the writers of the histories no longer knew what he meant. For which reason the strange word may have been ill transmitted. But even so it still bears some likeness to Taniquetil though it can no longer be analysed. (In a few versions, say the Loremasters, it was written dāhanigwi-telgūn.) >But the hosts had not gone far, ere it came to the mind of Fanor, over late, that all these great companies, both of the full-grown and war-high and many others, and great store of goods withal, would never overcome the long leagues to the North, nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships.
I think creating a footnote her is no possibility. Either we take it as it is or we leave it out. And I am inclined to use the alternative reading as well.

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Old 12-09-2017, 10:41 AM   #10
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Why can we not create a footnote?
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:03 PM   #11
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First of all say that I dont have at hand the texts cause im not at home for a time.
As for the location, this is something I thought in the moment I inserted, but in the proper sentence is said "the distant mountains of Valinor"; in my opinion this is enough to think the Noldor were far from them, and they must be in Araman because "the mists of Araman". Of course in my location Taniquetil is very far away but it was the highest mountain of Arda and in other way of thought it is not neccesary that could be seen, only can curse in its direction.
But, again coul be my erroneous interpretation of english?
As for the word if you want to maintain Dahanigwishtilgūn, in my opinion is neccesary a footnote explain something like this very obscure word and not insert it into the narrative that sounds out of context like (for me) every philological, etc text. But I think is better to change directly in Taniquetil because is a possible explanation into the subcreation not a especulation of us.
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:27 PM   #12
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gondowe, I can see your reasoning. It is true that the direct sense of these introduction is that the Noldor are fare from the Pelori, which makes your placement more likely. And yes you are also right that Taniquetil is the highes of all mountains, and might be in a flat world, as we propose it, seen from very, very far away.

So that would mean:
Quote:
158 Therefore Fanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take. But soon they began to suffer anguish from the cold, and the clinging mists through which no gleam of star could pierce; and many of them repented of the road and began to murmur, especially those that followed Fingolfin, cursing Fanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar. FoN-EX-23.5 <Q&E {Most significant, they cite from an ancient legend of the flight the tale that as}As the mists of Araman wrapped the distant mountains of Valinor from the sight of the Noldor, Fanor raised his hands in token of rejection and cried: 'I go. Neither in light or shadow will I look upon you again, Dahanigwishtilgūn.' So it was recorded, though the writers of the histories no longer knew what he meant. For which reason the strange word may have been ill transmitted. But even so it still bears some likeness to Taniquetil though it can no longer be analysed. (In a few versions, say the Loremasters, it was written dāhanigwi-telgūn.) > FoN-EX-24b <Shibboleth Fingolfin {had }prefixed the name Finw to olofinw{ before the Exiles reached Middle-earth}. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finw, and so enraged Fanor.>
ArcusCalion, there is no direct rule against the creation of a footnote, but up to now we never found a reason good enough to do so. Creating a footnote is a change more serious then it seems at first glance. The authorship of the text lifted into a footnote is obscured in two ways: On an outer view it is no longer clear, if it is the author JRRT writing or us as editors? And on a inside view the same question can be asked. That alone must make us critical. My feeling is that if we can not introduce something into the main text without an explanatory footnote (even so the text of the footnote comes from JRR Tolkien) we should leave it out. The only excaption is if JRR Tolkien used a footnote himself.

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