Why was Gandalf attached to TWO Valar?

[Arwen Imladris]

First of all, I did try a search and I could not find a topic like this, so I am deeply sorry if there is already one out there.

Here is a quote from UT in the chapter on the Istari, the Valar are having a council, and they have just decided to choose 3 emissaries to ME to counter Sauron:

‘Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh.’ But two only came forward: Curumo [Saruman], who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar [one of the blue wizards] who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin [Gandalf]? Am P;prom. wjp ws c;ad om grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that ‘Olorin was a lover of the Eldar that remained’, apparently to explain Manwe’s choice). But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word ‘third’). But at that Varda looked up and said: ‘Not as the third’; and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Allatar took Pallando as a friend.
On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that ‘Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aule’. There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olorin to Manwe and Varda, Curumo to Aule, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Orome, and Pallando also to Orome (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).
The meaning of these relations between Istari and Valar is clearly, in the light of the brief narrative just cited, that each Istar was chosen by each Vala for his innate characteristics – perhaps even that they were members of the ‘people’ of that Vala, in the same sense as is said of Sauron in the Valaquenta (The Silmarillion p.32) that ‘in his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people’. It is thys very notable that Curumo (Saruman) was chosen by Aule. There is no hint of an explanation of why Yavanna’s evident.

[bla, bla bla, and then a little later:]

Who was ‘Gandalf’? It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the ‘Faithful’ of that time that ‘Gandalf’ was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name ‘in the West’ had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake ot be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descend from the Moutain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, on coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

O.K., so my question is why was Gandalf associated with two?

I have no real clue as to why Gandalf was attached to two. It might have just been a *gasp* mistake on Tolkien’s part. Unfinished Tales is a combination of what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote but was never published because he never finished it and what Christopher Tolkien wrote to try and make sense of his father’s writings. Therefore, it could have easily not been what Tolkien originally intended.

Another thing is that Pallando was also originally attached to two of the Valar, but in the end was attached to the same one as Alatar, perhaps that just happens sometimes?

One other thought is that both Varda and Manwe recognized a certain power in Olorin and wanted to control him.

What do you think? Any ideas? This is kind of trivial but very annoying!

[Falagar]

I have no real clue as to why Gandalf was attached to two. It might have just been a *gasp* mistake on Tolkien’s part. Unfinished Tales is a combination of what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote but was never published because he never finished it and what Christopher Tolkien wrote to try and make sense of his father’s writings. Therefore, it could have easily not been what Tolkien originally intended.

I think that Manwë and Varda is, in a sense, counted as 'one' Vala. They were married, and I think they had a discussion before the meeting, deciding which Maia would be the best to send. Both seem to have agreed on Gandalf.

Another thing is that Pallando was also originally attached to two of the Valar, but in the end was attached to the same one as Alatar, perhaps that just happens sometimes?

I'll post two essays on the two blue wizards, which are much older than the one in UT. From HoME XII (The Peoples of Middle Earth), Last Writings:

No names are reccorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in the lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same tme. Possibly Saruman Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already overmindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. ... (what is more probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

and:

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. but the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who would both in the Second Age and the Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

The latter is the latest one, if I remember correctly, and it seemed like Tolkien had changed his mind about the Blue Wizards.
I can't discuss any furhter right now because I'm dead tired, and everything I would say would probably not make any sense at all. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
The latter is the latest one, if I remember correctly, and it seemed like Tolkien had changed his mind about the Blue Wizards.

Sorry if I have broken any copyright law by posting these two essays, if this has happend please accept my apology. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Since Manwë and Varda were so close, they were most often found in each other's company. Therefore, for all practical purposes, they probably counted as one Vala.

Even if they do count as two separate Valar, does it say anywhere that a Maia can only serve one Vala? I don't recall it saying in the Silmarillion that the service of the Maiar was limited. All it says is that the Maiar were the servants of the Valar.

[Arwen Imladris]

O.K. thanks! Don't worry about the copyright thing, I did it to! Just so long as you say that it is not yours I think it is o.k...

I don't think that it ever said that they could only serve one Vala, but none of the other maia that I know of were attached to 2.

Another question, if Varda and Manwe count as one, why where they both mentioned?

[Finwe]

I didn't mean that they always counted as one, but service purposes, wouldn't it be more efficient to have the inseparable couple count as one?

I think that the reason that not many Maiar served more than one Vala was that attachments were also made, along with bonds of service. For example, Gandalf could have been like the "ward" of Manwë and Varda, and Melian could have been the "ward" of Estë and Nienna.

[Legolas]

What is the question here? I've seen no statement that allows a Maia to associated with only one of the Valar. What sense does that make? Manwe and Varda were together, and thus "their people" would be the same group, the same community. Maiar are 'servants of the Valar' - one that serves and lives near Manwe would naturally serve and live near Varda too. I don't see the confusion.

[Osse]

Exactly. A Maia who serves Aule, also serves Yavanna. It was simply Tolkiens wording. Though (and this is just an example) a Maia may be Aule's smith hand, Yavanna may still call upon him for errands. It seems to me that Tolkien listed the names of both Vala if the two shared the same aspect ie. Nienna and Mandos: the afterlife, and Varda and Manwe were the chief of the Valar. It simply emplied who sent the Maia to the council, Aule sent Curumo, yet both Manwe and Varda decided to send Olorin. (The same applies for Pallando)

There should be little uncertainty here, this passage states who sent the Maia to the council, not who the Maia serves, of course in three of the five instances the Valar who sent the Maia to the council was the Valar that the Maia personally served. Also, Mandos and Manwe regularly took council with their spouses, yet Orome and Aule generally made their own decisions. Aule and Yavanna's interests differed greatly, they each respected different virtues in their followers, yet Manwe and Varda (and Mandos and Nienna) looked for the same qualities in their followers. Thus it is true in a way that both Pallando and Olorin served two Valar, but for their two masters they would only take the one action as the pairs were often of like mind.

(Also, if i remember correctly, feel free to challenge me if you think differently, or find the correct quote, because i could not find it in the Valaquenta, but didn't Aule and Yavanna live in seperate places, coming together at times but generally living where their work was?)

-Osse-

[Arothir]

A maia who serves Aule, also serves Yavanna.

That means Sauron served Yavanna for a little bit. He doesn't seem like someone who would care for beasts and plants.

I thought it said in the Valaquenta that Olorin served Irmo Lorien.

[Osse]

Who said anything about having to care about what you are doing?
Lets have an example-
Yavanna asked Sauron to hand her a shovel...

[Arothir]

Fat chance of Sauron ever doing that! He'd be more like a Radagast/Aiwendil. I wonder, do Maiar live wherever the Valar they serve live? I mean, Gandalf lives in Lorien, yet he serves Manwe.

[Man of the Old Hope]

Regarding Manwë and Varda, I don't think that we should assume that, whether in council or otherwise, they acted as "one" Vala, save in purpose. Does Eru Ilúvatar speak to Varda's thoughts as he speaks to Manwë's? (If I may use a mundane metaphor, wife and husband are certainly in some sense one, and in Christian scripture and liturgy we go so far as to refer to them as "one flesh", but husband and wife are not thereby understood to be a single entity.)

Nor should we regard the Maia of one Vala as being simultaneously in the service of that Vala's spouse. The unlikelihood of this has been suggested by a post above, noting that Sauron would hardly have been a fit servant for Yavanna.

It seems to me that we should not read too much into Olórin's being associated with both Manwë and Varda for several reasons. First, as pointed out above, the story of the council by which the Valar sent the Istari into Middle Earth is not "canonical". Who knows what form, if indeed any, this tale would have taken had Tolkien prepared it for publication? As Christopher Tolkien points out in Unfinished Tales, the association of Olórin with Manwë and Varda is found in "some rough tables", and not even within the text of the council-story. Second, if we examine the text of the council-story, it is clear that Manwë chooses Olórin, apparently because he is "a lover of the Eldar that remained." Varda's voice is heard only after Manwë's choice (after an illegible bit of text in which the word "third" appears), as she objects (?): "Not as the third", by which I believe she means to suggest (in her foreknowledge?) that Olórin was to be primus inter pares, the first among these equal Istari, rather than Curumo/Curunír (who is noted to remember Varda's words - is this the origin of Saruman's jealousy of and resentment toward Gandalf?).

Why should Varda make this objection (or observation or prophecy)? For the reason given for Manwë's choice : because Olórin loved the Eldar who remained in Middle Earth, and the Eldar were foremost in Varda's love (and she in theirs). Perhaps Varda's opinion of Olórin was also informed by his learning "pity and patience" in the house of Nienna (Valaquenta, "Of the Maiar"). Those qualities, and his recognition of his own weakness and fear in facing the Enemy (indeed, the Istari were meant to come to Middle Earth "in shapes weak and humble"), no doubt made him dear to Varda, such that she in essence seconded Manwë's choice.

I believe that we should read no more into Olórin's association with Manwë and Varda together, or his being chosen by them both, than that he was the one among the Istari who would remain faithful to his task in Middle Earth.