Lord of the Rings, rated PGP

[Elianna]

In this thread, we shall see how many people here are not only geeks, but nerds as well.

I have recently decided to give The Lord of the Rings a rating of PGP, meaning pretty good physics (just enough flaws to be fun).

The examples I have are:

-Legolas walking on top of the snow. The snow isn't dense enough to support the amount of pressure from his weight only applied over the surface area of the sole of his feet. At least in the book, he has to run across the snow, but would that really make it any more believable?

-Legolas climbing up the oliphaunt on the arrows. The arrows have a modulus of rupture (points beyond which the material cannot bounce back to its original shape, and will be likely to break) of 18400 lb/sq in. Hypothesising that the length of the arrow from the oliphaunt's skin to Legolas' hand is 6 inches and the diameter of the arrow is 1/8 in, I find that the arrow could only withstand a load of 4 lbs, and if someone suddenly applied the weight, only 2 lbs.

-Gollum talking with his reflection. The stream is in motion and therefore wasn't a flat surface and couldn't provide as unwavering a reflection as is seen in the movie.

(There's another example, but it's in the EE, so I'll wait until Tuesday to post it.)

Most of these examples have to do with Legolas the elf. So what's the point of having Elves if you're not going to occasionally let them break the laws of physics?

Anyone else nerd enough to think up and post other examples?

[Gil-Galad]

Either its very clever or very ridiculos(sp), maybe i should invent a pun in the future to comment this...but for now


-Hobbits surviving in Mordor without water, and doing hard tasks, they would faint, and you would think faster because they are smaller then men

[Boromir88]

maybe i should invent a pun in the future to comment this...but for now

Ha!

-Hobbits surviving in Mordor without water, and doing hard tasks, they would faint, and you would think faster because they are smaller then men

Darn you! Got to it before me...but let's see if I can think of a few.

I don't know if this would defy physics...but

1) Haldir's making it from Lorien to Helm's Deep in a matter of a few hours. I guess they had Scottie do them a favor. Beam me up!

2) Gothmog, I mean a person that ugly can not be human, he can't even be an orc.

3) Aragorn (TTT)- You have 2,000 good men riding North as we speak. Eomer is loyal to you. He will return and fight for his king.

First, when Aragorn met the Riders of Rohan there didn't even seem to be 200 of them. Now, he automatically knows there are 2,000. I guess the Rohirrim barrowed the cloning machine from Star Wars.

[Lalwendë]

-Legolas walking on top of the snow. The snow isn't dense enough to support the amount of pressure from his weight only applied over the surface area of the sole of his feet. At least in the book, he has to run across the snow, but would that really make it any more believable?

As long as he did not stand still, this would be possible. I was watching a fairly laddish show called Brainiac Science Abuse on Sky the other week (yes, yes, I know it's hardly intellectual, but they blow up microwaves and that...) and they did an experiment to prove that you can walk on custard. They filled a swimming pool with the stuff and yes, you can walk on it; but if you stand still it sucks you in like quicksand. Just a mere trifle for you there...

[Elianna]

Thanks Lalwende! Did they explain at all why you can do that?

Here's another: dwarf tossing. No way Aragorn can give Gimli enough initial velocity to get him from the side door to the causeway. Gimli weighs too much.

[Lalwendë]

Thanks Lalwende! Did they explain at all why you can do that?

I think it was something to do with your weight being spread across the molecules and pushing the water away, and the explanation was sismilar to that given for why quicksand works in the same way. But I have to admit, I was in hysterics at the absurdity of doing an experiment involving walking on custard, so the science part was lost on me a bit. I think a quick 'google' for quicksand should tell you why this happens!

[Ainaserkewen]

Here is but another example of a thread that people love to discuss what they hate, or think is off.

So Gandalf falls seemingly to his doom with the Balrog. His sword falls behind him, but he manages to catch it/fight the Balrog/win. Doesn't gravity pull all objects at the same rate? This has been discussed so often since the Two Towers came out, I'm sure it's been overused.

[Gil-Galad]

i finnally remember one

-the mystery of Gandalf and Saruman on top of Orthanc, how the bloody did they get there? Tolkien never stated that they had teleporting powers, or flying powers, anything like that, they were just guides to stop Sauron, no magic mumbo-jumbo...

[Lalwendë]

Here is but another example of a thread that people love to discuss what they hate, or think is off.

It could be a good one this thread, though, and actually explain why some things might happen in apparent contravention of the laws of science in our world. Of course, as long as you're not like me and you watch experiments involving custard, thus provoking excesive laughter and hence missing the useful explanation....

Sooo...

Here's another: dwarf tossing. No way Aragorn can give Gimli enough initial velocity to get him from the side door to the causeway. Gimli weighs too much.

This might be possible, as I'm sure the heavier an object the more speed it picks up as it is moves; this is to do with the laws of velocity and I don't know the exact theory but I'm sure this is true. This is why an oil tanker takes longer to stop than a fishing boat; the additional weight lends it more velocity.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This might be possible, as I'm sure the heavier an object the more speed it picks up as it is moves; this is to do with the laws of velocity and I don't know the exact theory but I'm sure this is true. This is why an oil tanker takes longer to stop than a fishing boat; the additional weight lends it more velocity.

Actually, if an object is free-fall, the only force acting on it is gravity, which is always a constent: 9.81 m/s sq. All objects fall at the same speed, no matter what their weight is. A heavier object (like the oiltanker) picks up more momentum as it accelerates. Momentum does have to do with velocity and with mass of an object. I misspoke when I said the problem with dwarf-tossing was Gimli's wieght; the real problem is that Aragorn isn't strong enough to give Gimli the initial velocity he appears to be travel with. (But that he lacks the stength has to do with Gimli's weight.) It'll take me a while to spit out some numbers.

[Lalwendë]

Elianna - are you a proper scientist? Unlike me who tinkers around the edges of cosmology and watches food-stuff experiments?

I Understand though now - so to shift an object which is heavier, there needs to be more force behind it? So, would this mean say, a cave troll would fire an arrow further than an Elf, being that you have to have a fair amount of strength to use a bow and arrow?

[Encaitare]

-the mystery of Gandalf and Saruman on top of Orthanc, how the bloody did they get there? Tolkien never stated that they had teleporting powers, or flying powers, anything like that, they were just guides to stop Sauron, no magic mumbo-jumbo...

Perchance they took the stairs.

[Boromir88]

Perchance they took the stairs.

Ahh, but you still need a trap door, wouldn't you? So there must have been this little trap door.

[Gil-Galad]

but if you look in the movies, the top of the tower has no stairs going up to it, thats what i mean

[Boromir88]

So let me get this straight. Haldir barrowed Scotty's transporter beam to get from Lorien to Rohan. Then Saruman barrowed it to get him and Gandalf on top of Orthanc. No wait...it would be the other way around. Saruman barrowed it from Scotty, Haldir barrowed it from Saruman...now I'm just confused...

Or maybe, to add a bit of physics, when Gandalf hit face first into ceilling of Orthanc, he went flying right through the ceilling?

[Lalwendë]

It might have been whatever technique they used on Rentaghost where Timothy Claypole used to materialise through walls and then laugh maniacally.

[Nimrodel_9]

Here's another: dwarf tossing. No way Aragorn can give Gimli enough initial velocity to get him from the side door to the causeway. Gimli weighs too much.

How about when Legolas throws Aragorn and Gimli a rope? Aragorn wraps an arm around the dwarf, grasps the rope with one hand, and is hauled up. How is that possible? I guess Arry is very VERY strong.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Elianna - are you a proper scientist?

Nah, just a kid who just had a physics project in which I used these examples.

I Understand though now - so to shift an object which is heavier, there needs to be more force behind it?

Right.

So, would this mean say, a cave troll would fire an arrow further than an Elf, being that you have to have a fair amount of strength to use a bow and arrow?

Well, with an arrow, since that has to do with the bow's strength, it wouldn't matter if it's an elf or troll. Now, if they were throwing a rock...that's a different story.

Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9

I guess Arry is very VERY strong.

*shakes head at PJ* Must be...

[Rumil]

If you read the Silmarillion, you'll find out that Middle Earth's sun and moon were derived from fruit, possibly a minor physical flaw?

PS. Rentaghost ! There must be someone here nearly as old as me!

[Lalwendë]

Nah, just a kid who just had a physics project in which I used these examples.

You know, you youngsters just put me to shame! You know so much stuff! I couldn't cope with too much more than all those Hobbits dancing around in my head - where do you find the time? *impressed*

PS. Rentaghost ! There must be someone here nearly as old as me!

'Twas my favourite show - Mrs Popov, MacWitch etc., which one always failed to do the materialising properly though?

I was just thinking about Shelob and Ungoliant. I heard once that spiders can only get to a certain size (about as big as a small plate), biologically speaking, and then the genetic composition of their bodies would make them unable to get any bigger, or their skeletons would simply collapse under the weight.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

'Twas my favourite show - Mrs Popov, MacWitch etc., which one always failed to do the materialising properly though?

Wasn't that Timothy Claypole? Or perhaps Mr Davenport? I must watch my Rentaghost video again sometime. Ah, the nostalgia of tea-time children's television ...

Sorry. Blatantly off-topic for a moment there.

... or their skeletons would simply collapse under the weight.

Don't you mean that they would be crushed under the weight of their exoskeletons?

Isn't there some law of physics to the effect that any creature above a certain weight would be too heavy to fly. That would put paid to Dragons, Fell Beasts, Giant Eagles and (*ahem*) winged Balrogs. I realise that there were some pretty huge Pterosaurs around in prehistoric times, but I believe that they had hollow bones and were incredibly fragile. I can't imagine Dragons and Balrogs having hollow bones, and Dragons' scales must have been pretty hefty to afford such protection. And the Fell Beasts had to carry Ringwraiths (although, as they were dead, perhaps there weight was negligible).

In any event, I believe that Thorondor was supposed to be the size of a Lancaster Bomber. I can't see a creature that size flying without some kind of artificial thrust. He might be able to take off from the mountains, but if he ever made landfall, he could be in trouble ...

Then again, I am far from being a physicist. My worst subject at school by some margin ...

[Encaitare]

Isn't there some law of physics to the effect that any creature above a certain weight would be too heavy to fly.

There is, but there are exceptions. According to the laws of physics, bumblebees and helicopters should not be able to fly.

Don't ask me to prove that one -- it's a bit of random trivia I know, but I chose not to take physics, so I don't know the math or anything.

[Lhunardawen]

It's my holiday break, and I'm really glad since for a period of three weeks I can stop thinking about school. What's more, I have more time for the Downs! Now I log on and what I see is a discussion of my favorite subject: Physics.

Okay, I'll stop the ranting.

Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9

How about when Legolas throws Aragorn and Gimli a rope? Aragorn wraps an arm around the dwarf, grasps the rope with one hand, and is hauled up. How is that possible? I guess Arry is very VERY strong.

Isn't a Dwarf and an Elf too heavy for a rope as thin as the one we saw in the movie? Shouldn't their mass, and the fact that they were hanging on in midair, have been enough for the rope to snap, putting an end to their Orc-killing game?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I was just thinking about Shelob and Ungoliant. I heard once that spiders can only get to a certain size (about as big as a small plate), biologically speaking, and then the genetic composition of their bodies would make them unable to get any bigger, or their skeletons would simply collapse under the weight.

Ah, but Ungoliant and her descendants are mutants, their genetic composition altered in such a way that they can grow to such extreme sizes. They were probably given a few hundred additional nitrogen-base pairs for their DNA.

Another thing, remember the scene in TTT where Saruman and Gandalf were on top of Orthanc, and Saruman had Gandalf standing diagonally at the very edge of the floor (or ceiling, actually)? I think Gandalf should have fallen already due to the pull of gravity, unless there is a stronger horizontal force that keeps his feet firmly planted on the floor. Maybe his shoes are made of metal and Orthanc is a gigantic electromagnet...

I'll stop now, before I go crazy.

[Lalwendë]

I had to, sorry, it's off topic and all...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/ilove/tv/rentaghost/intro.shtml

In any event, I believe that Thorondor was supposed to be the size of a Lancaster Bomber. I can't see a creature that size flying without some kind of artificial thrust. He might be able to take off from the mountains, but if he ever made landfall, he could be in trouble ...

Makes you wonder why Saruman cut those trees down. Perhaps he was building a runway for some nefarious purpose...

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Makes you wonder why Saruman cut those trees down. Perhaps he was building a runway for some nefarious purpose...

Or he needed talking lumber for some way-out machinery of evil...

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Another thing, remember the scene in TTT where Saruman and Gandalf were on top of Orthanc, and Saruman had Gandalf standing diagonally at the very edge of the floor (or ceiling, actually)? I think Gandalf should have fallen already due to the pull of gravity, unless there is a stronger horizontal force that keeps his feet firmly planted on the floor. Maybe his shoes are made of metal and Orthanc is a gigantic electromagnet...

Hmm, I thought that Saruman was holding him up with his levatation magic.

[Boromir88]

When FOTR first came out, I wondered how this part was possible...

When Merry and Pippin launch off Gandalf's fireworks, and they are not even a foot away, yet they just get a little singed. I work for a fireworks company, and you wouldn't believe some of the stories. Of employees trying to steel fireworks, and losing their hands blowing them up, and many other parts I'm afraid .

[Elianna]

It's after Tuesday, so here's the other one I promised:

Legolas shooting Gríma on the top of Orthanc! *Rant on why I don't like what PJ did...* and besides that, I've calculated it: it is physically impossible. In order to gain enough initial velocity to get to the top of Orthanc, at the moment of being released the arrow would have had to withstand an acceleration of 22,227.4 m/sq. s. Not even Lego's spiffy little elf arrow could do that.

[Ainaserkewen]

My dad pointed this out when he saw the movie:

(It would be weird book-wise too) Frodo and Sam were mere meters away from the boiling lava on Mount Doom. My Dad says they shouldn't have been able to survive. That, and Gollum would have vapourised when he hit the pools of lava, not slowly burned to death. But all this would have seriously rearranged the story, so I guess it's okay.

[Elianna]

Add to that the Ring not melting on top of a small solidified glob surrounded by molten lava.

[Nukapei]

Hmm, the Leggy walking on snow part: perhaps Elves have hollow bones?

Another one that's bothered me since I saw it is this: Gandalf survives the fall when he's battling the Balrog because he falls into water, right? Well, when your fall is more than a certain height (100 ft, I think, though I may be pulling that number from thin air), unless you land juuuuust right, water is as hard as concrete. And I didn't exactly see him and the Balrog stop fighting long enough to make sure they hit the water right! Think about it in terms of the hardest bellyflop in recorded history. They'd snap their spine!

Oh, not to mention the fact that they fell so far and still lived, no matter what they hit. Because gravity is an acceleration, not velocity, the longer you fall the faster you go. Wouldn't it reach a point long before they hit the water that the pressure was just too much for them to stand, and (especially Gandalf's scrawny self) would've literally been crushed to death by the speed?

[Lalwendë]

(It would be weird book-wise too) Frodo and Sam were mere meters away from the boiling lava on Mount Doom. My Dad says they shouldn't have been able to survive.

Your dad could be right there, certainly in terms of the films. The overwhelming amount of sulphur in the air would have choked them to death. And there is the volcanic phenomenon known as pyroclastic flow - when gasses are released under tremendous pressure and overwhelm all in their path, even eagles wouldn't have been able to withstand such forces.

[Mithalwen]

Wonderful if slightly scary thread .. actually Helms Deep isn't so far from Lorien (though still a fair step) - don't forget that the Three Hunters backtracked a lot..


And I think that the escape from the volcano is a bit implausible especially as portrayed in the films ... Gollum would have just gone Phzzz in a nano second even before he hit the lava - not sunk still looking quite pleased to have the ring back

[Ainaserkewen]

Your dad could be right there

My Dad is very knowing about such things, and apparently I listen...

[Formendacil]

The only problem with any quibbling about something to do with Elves, Wizards, or others of that ilk is that we don't know what they're capable of.

They aren't human.

They are, quite obviously, endowed with superhuman resources.

Gandalf, for instance, in his fall with the Balrog, is engaged in a titanic Maia-vs.-Maia battle in which he would seem to be free from at least some of the constraints of having taken on human form. Besides which, we have NO way of knowing exactly what Gandalf's magic is capable of, whether or not he NEEDS his staff to work it, or even whether or not Narya could have affected things.

As for the Balrog, considering that he's NOT bound to the form of a man, nor does he seem to be made of normal materials, and the fact that he's a superhuman demon, I personally don't think that its all that improbable for him to hit bottom un-killed.

The big question with the Balrog, at least in my opinion, is how in Angband's name did GANDALF ever kill him after they both survived a fall like that?

[Nukapei]

Hmm, good point, Formandacil. I had forgotten about the fact that Gandalf wasn't a man, just a maia in a man's form. And that the Balrog certainly wasn't "normal". I guess they could survive a fall like that!

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

I think this was mentioned on another thread but when Denethor lights himself on fire and in the next shot is shown falling off the cliff, wouldn't he have had to run like 300 yards in a matter of seconds? Perhaps Scotty's transporter is more popular than we all think...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by AbercrombieOfRohan

when Denethor lights himself on fire and in the next shot is shown falling off the cliff, wouldn't he have had to run like 300 yards in a matter of seconds?

He would have needed to run (while aflame) a lot more than 300 yards, given that his attempted self-immolation took place in a chamber in Rath Dinen, which is the other side of the White Tower. So, his route would have taken him up Rath Dinen, through (or past) the Citadel, across the courtyard and off the end. And he started off in the wrong direction. Now that takes either superhuman speed or superhuman fire-resistance.

Funnily enough, I only noticed this about the fourth time I watched the film, but now I'm aware of it it really irritates me. Still, the flaming jump off the edge was poorly conceived (as were many elements of the preceding scene) in any event. One of the low spots of RotK.

[King of the North]

wow, Boromir u are like my new idol

First, when Aragorn met the Riders of Rohan there didn't even seem to be 200 of them. Now, he automatically knows there are 2,000. I guess the Rohirrim barrowed the cloning machine from Star Wars.

that was WAY 2 funny

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He would have needed to run (while aflame) a lot more than 300 yards, given that his attempted self-immolation took place in a chamber in Rath Dinen, which is the other side of the White Tower. So, his route would have taken him up Rath Dinen, through (or past) the Citadel, across the courtyard and off the end. And he started off in the wrong direction. Now that takes either superhuman speed or superhuman fire-resistance.

Besides which, wasn't Rath Dinen on one of the lower levels of the City? I could be totally wrong (I haven't got a book in front of me to confirm with), but wasn't it supposed to be the lowest or second lowest level? I KNOW it was, as you already mentioned, supposed to be beside the mountains and not the Pelennor.