Male and Female Orcs

[Dryson Bennington]

I have long been a fan of Tolkiens work. I have also played MERP or Middle Earth Role Playing and there are no such things as female or male orcs for that matter.
Orcs were created by dark magics not typical sexual reproduction. Therefore any notions of ORCS having children and being social creatures is not true. They were created for the soul purpose of war and destruction nothing else. Various groups of ORCS were created to perform various tasks. Some were engineers crafting ugly but very sturdy machines of war. Others were armourers who job it was to create weapons of war for the Morgoth Horde. But they were all created to fight and kill anything that was against their masters (Sauron) wishes and desires of control.

The only notion that I see occuring here is so called Tolkien fans caught not by the true nature of the story itself but by social engineers attempt to label a group of real life people to fit the method of a fantasy story to make them feel liek the story is actually real when it is not.

.....One ring to rule them all.

[Andsigil]

So, how does the Orc population grow in, say, the Misty Mountains?

[Beregond]

(Wrong section )

Dryson, I'm wondering what you're basing your assertion on? The only evidence I've found in the books has pointed towards normal reproduction. Although female Orcs are not mentioned, it doesn't mean they don't exist. In fact, Dwarf women were very nearly not mentioned at all, but we know they exist.

Orcs are accepted to be Elves who were captured and corrupted shortly after their "awakening". So says the Silmarillion.

[Vaine]

I agree with what Beregond said, I'd like to see what you've based yours facts on.

[Beregond]

We could probably have a lively discussion about trolls as well; since they were made as a mockery of the Onodrim, does that mean there were she-trolls? We just don't know!

[Morthoron]

Well, we know there were half-orcs and goblin-men, half-breeds in the service of Saruman, so it is apparent they had working sexual apparatuses. In addition, Bolg, the GoblinKing of the Hobbit, had a father named Azog who was king during the Orc and Dwarf War.

Originally Posted by Dryson Bennington

The only notion that I see occuring here is so called Tolkien fans caught not by the true nature of the story itself but by social engineers attempt to label a group of real life people to fit the method of a fantasy story to make them feel liek the story is actually real when it is not.

You have fallen into the 'Tolkien Trap', wherein you make a blanket statement about Tolkien's writing which will then be systematically picked apart by folks who have been discussing the nature of his works for decades (in my case, 30+ years). What you will learn is that you cannot necessarily make blanket statements about Tolkien's work, because there is much ambiguity, dissembling, fogginess, and changing perspectives on the part of the Professor. As Middle-earth grew, he became more muddled, often contradicting himself in an attempt to clarify his earlier work. This makes for great discussions, but not so much for precision and cardinal rules.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Beregond

(Wrong section )

Indeed - I'm moving the thread to the Novices and Newcomers section of the forum. Please continue reading and discussing there - thanks!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Assuming orcs don't reproduce sexually is falling
into PJ's "mud orc creation" imagery, which I assume
he had to do because of his concept of "instant orc
armies" where you add water and create 10,000
nassty orcsees, as opposed to the book concept of
Saruman's hidden, slow expansion of his armies
(including wargs).

I prefer the Silmarillion concept of orcs as twisted elves,
although there are also arguments for orcs as
twisted men.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, Morth, this is one area where Tolkien wasn't muddled; although he was all over the place as to Orcs' ultimate origin, he never contradicted his outright declaration that Orcs reproduced 'after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar.' WRT Saruman's hybrids he went so far as to assert that Men could be so debased as to be induced to "mate" with Orcs- which is about as close to sexual explicitness as the old man would ever come.

[Nerwen]

Dryson– welcome to the Downs– though this is perhaps not the best way to welcome you.

At the risk of sounding like a "me-too"– what you are asserting comes not from anything Tolkien wrote but from the film version of LotR and perhaps from some game or other.

Originally Posted by Dryson Bennington

The only notion that I see occuring here is so called Tolkien fans caught not by the true nature of the story itself but by social engineers attempt to label a group of real life people to fit the method of a fantasy story to make them feel liek the story is actually real when it is not.

Sorry, but what does that mean? It actually sounds like you're saying Orcs are "a group of real life people".

[Boo Radley]

I just had a terrifying thought.

Orc blind dates.

What could be scarier?

Talk about nightmare fuel...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

Orc blind dates.

What could be scarier?

Orc honeymoons? Talk about 'bumping uglies!'

Orc birth? The witch-doctor slaps the mother.

Orc periods? Keep sharp objects away at that time of the month, or else unleash the amazons on Gondor.

[Boo Radley]

Orc weddings?

"With this ring, I thee wed..."

"Ring? RING???"

"No, Honey! It's not THE...arrrgghhhhh......glug...

I'm surprised they could even GET to the honeymoon!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Orc weddings? Big deal.

You want ugly? How about orc divorces?

[Kyani]

Originally Posted by Dryson Bennington

I have long been a fan of Tolkiens work. I have also played MERP or Middle Earth Role Playing and there are no such things as female or male orcs for that matter.
Orcs were created by dark magics not typical sexual reproduction. Therefore any notions of ORCS having children and being social creatures is not true. They were created for the soul purpose of war and destruction nothing else. Various groups of ORCS were created to perform various tasks. Some were engineers crafting ugly but very sturdy machines of war. Others were armourers who job it was to create weapons of war for the Morgoth Horde. But they were all created to fight and kill anything that was against their masters (Sauron) wishes and desires of control.

The only notion that I see occuring here is so called Tolkien fans caught not by the true nature of the story itself but by social engineers attempt to label a group of real life people to fit the method of a fantasy story to make them feel liek the story is actually real when it is not.

.....One ring to rule them all.

I know this is a little late, but your comment is false. Tolkein is quite clear in the books that they 'reproduce after the manner of men'. The Hobbit makes references to orc-imps (young orcs) and also states that they have their own crafts and skills. LOTR refers to Merry being healed by orc medicine. If you are such a fan like you claim, surely you will remember these parts?

Both the movies and the books also say that Saruman is crossing orcs and men to make his hybrids.

I'm pretty sure I'm not confused about orcs really existing, and I'll bet it's safe to extend that certainty to the other people viewing and commenting on this thread.