Did Rohan annex Enedwaith in the Fourth Age ?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I seem to recall reading in one or two places that Enedwaith eventually became part of Rohan in the Fourth Age.

Has anyone got information about this please ?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am not aware of any such thing. When I read this, I just checked Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth (which is generally rather trustworthy) and it shows Rohan on the Fourth Age map in its original borders (westwards only between Isen and Adorn). Enedwaith, as well as Minhiriath and everything between Arnor and Gondor which is not Rohan belongs to the renewed kingdom. Even if I did not trust the map itself, there is a referrence to a quote from LotR that Elessar "renewed the kingdom in its original borders" - which means Enedwaith and Minhiriath too. It makes sense: one would certainly prefer to have an unbroken link between Arnor and Gondor, even if the breaking point was an allied kingdom; it is still better if you can pass still only within your own borders. So I think not. Also remember the talk of Butterbur to Gandalf, where he seemed displeased at the idea of some random folks coming and rebuilding Fornost etc., and also the southern parts - and Gandalf replied to that that king's messengers will be coming from the south, which implies that all the lands there will belong to the King.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Since I posted I've found this : -

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Enedwaith

Which at the bottom states that Rohan DID absorb Enedwaith early in the Fourth Age. I agree it runs counter to general understanding of Aragorn establishing the Reunited Kingdom.

[garm]

In general, I mistrust wiki (any wiki) as a 'source' for anything to do with Tolkien. There's a tendency to make things up!

I've just looked up 'Enedwaith' in the Hammond-Scull; in addition to refs. from LotR, there are also references to Unfinished tales, and to Tolkien's essay 'The Rivers and Beacon-Hills of Gondor'. There's nothing in Hammond and Scull to suggest that the Rohirrim annexed Enedwaith, so as the author of the Wiki article doesn't see fit to say where this info comes from, I'd be inclined to think that he/she made it up.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed. Always check the sources! That's not to say it can't be true - but I suggest looking for the real quotes from Tolkien himself which would support this. In general, like said above, I would not expect the annexation to happen. Maybe looking into the Appendices could bring some light... that's what I would expect. I looked into them only briefly and I didn't find anything in the part about Rohan (Appendix A II), only this, which would actually point to the contrary:

In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Éomer the gift of Cirion, and Éomer took again the Oath of Eorl.

So, here we go. "Rohan only" means, well, Rohan only and Enedwaith would be the part of the "reams of old", at least in the times of greatest might of the heirs of Elendil.

[Findegil]

I do not have my books with me, but I know were to search, since I rember that statment. It is in one of the earlier manuskripts for the appendixes. So look into volume 12 of 'The History of Middle-Earth'. The Index might be handy looking for 'Enedwaith'. Since it did not make it to the final text, you can consider it as a skipt idea but I am not quiet sure that the final text does force us to that.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I do not have my books with me, but I know were to search, since I rember that statment. It is in one of the earlier manuskripts for the appendixes. So look into volume 12 of 'The History of Middle-Earth'. The Index might be handy looking for 'Enedwaith'. Since it did not make it to the final text, you can consider it as a skipt idea but I am not quiet sure that the final text does force us to that.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Thanks, Findegil.

I think one also can't simply declare "that's what happened", either, though, especially since it appears to contradict other statements.

Originally Posted by garm

In general, I mistrust wiki (any wiki) as a 'source' for anything to do with Tolkien. There's a tendency to make things up!

I doubt people deliberately make things up, actually, it's just that they tend to work from memory, or just guess when they're not sure. Also, a lot of these articles are largely copied from other wikis, which in turn are copied from still others, so you can get a sort of "Chinese whispers" effect.

[garm]

>>I doubt people deliberately make things up, actually, it's just that they tend to work from memory, or just guess when they're not sure.

That's actually not much of an excuse, is it? There are some folk out there who believe what they read on the internet, you know!

It seems to me that if one is going to presume to write something on a wiki, then it's up to that person to get it right. To come to your next point; the fact that folk do work from memory, or guess, is not a safe basis for copying bits from other wikis.

Sounds to me like some folk need to wake their ideas up!

So to repeat - use the books! There are plenty of excellent reference books out there in addition to Tolkien's texts; Foster's Guide for one, and the excellent The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion' by Scull and Hammond.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

It had been (interestingly) part of Gondor rather than Arnor, being not really part of Eriador (in terms of Gil-Galad's greater realm). But even more than the lands of Rohan, Gondor's de facto rule had long failed in Enedwaith, such that Rohan was as much a buffer or bulwark for Gondor from the NW's wild people as from the NE. Travel between the two Dunedain kingdom had been a large part seaborne earlier in the Third Age.

But part of the Kingdom of Rohan? ... not ever in terms of canon or JRRT's expressed intention. Confusion may relate to the extension of Rohan along the lower Isen, between it and the Anorn. Those areas had been somewhat debatable in the context of the original grant, as well as the local Dunlendish people's recognition and allegiance, and had not been even strongly controlled by Rohan at times.

But Aragorn likely affirmed its belonging to Rohan, but retained Isengard and Enedwaith for the Reunited Kingdom, as part of which the latter might have thrived.

[Findegil]

I agree with Gram that one should read the books before going to write a wiki article. But with such Middle-Earth questions as discussed here that would restrict the authors heavely.

From The History of Middle-Earth; volume 12: The Peoples of Middle-Earth; part one: The Prologue and Appendices to The Lord of the Rings; chapter IX: The Making of Appendix A; sub-chapter (iii): The House of Eorl; p. 271ff:

The second text II was a fair copy of I, with scarcely any change in content other than in detail of dates. Where in I it was said only that Eorl was 'born in the North', in II he was 'born in Irenland in the North'. This name was struck out and replaced by Eotheod, and this is very probably where that name first appeared (it is found also in both texts of the original 'Appendix on Languages', p. 34, $14). It was now further said of Eomer that he 'became a great king and extended his realm west of the Gap of Rohan to the regions between Isen and Greyflood, including Dunland.'

The last text (III) of this period was a finely written manuscript which begins with a brief account of the origin of the Rohirrim in the Men of Eotheod and their southward migration.
...
...
...
A long note was now appended to Eomer, with the same passage as is found in Appendix A (RK p. 351, footnote) concerning Eowyn, 'Lady of the Shieldarm', and the reference to Meriadoc's name Holdwine given to him by Eomer; and the statement of the extent of his realm appearing in II (p. 271) was rewritten: 'In Eomer's time the realm was extended west beyond the Gap of Rohan as far as the Greyflood and the sea-shores between that river and the Isen, and north to the borders of Lorien, and his men and horses multiplied exceedingly.'

Okay, 'Enedwaith' isn't mentioned by name, but 'the regions between Greyflood and Isen' is exactly what Enedwaith is.
And the idea was not short living since it made it even through one rewriting. But it is deleted from the final version, so it is for sure uncanonical.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by garm

It seems to me that if one is going to presume to write something on a wiki, then it's up to that person to get it right. To come to your next point; the fact that folk do work from memory, or guess, is not a safe basis for copying bits from other wikis.

I didn't say it was, or that it's not an issue; I'm just saying, I don't think people generally make things up on purpose. The problem is too much garbled copying, plus the fact that the second-level source that starts the whole thing off often does sound authoritative, giving chapter and verse for everything... but may leave out fairly important points, such as that it's actually from a first draft quoted in "Appendix B, Note 5: Other versions of the text".

Originally Posted by Findegil

I agree with Gram that one should read the books before going to write a wiki article. But with such Middle-Earth questions as discussed here that would restrict the authors heavely.

Mmmn... but would that be a bad thing? I mean, mostly people consult these things with the assumption that the author knows something they don't.

[Findegil]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mmmn... but would that be a bad thing? I mean, mostly people consult these things with the assumption that the author knows something they don't.

To be more clear: the authorship of the wiki would be restricted. The authors themself as well, but that effect is for sure disarable. But only a view poeple qualified to write will make the development of a wiki very slow. That is not bad in itself it is only not what most poeple starting such a project want.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[The Mouth of Sauron]

As an update to whether Rohan annexed Enedwaith in the Fourth Age, I also distinctly remember some reference somewhere to Rohan at the same time also expanding northwards over the Limlight to the southern eaves of Lorien AND eastwards over the Anduin from the Wold into the Brown Lands.

Anyone read these stories too ?

[Elmo]

Did the 'numerous fisher folk' of Enedwaith have much say in whoever annexed them? It's a bit dodgy also Rohan expanding their borders to the lands between the Isen and the Adorn as the loyalty of the people of this land was generally directed towards Dunland. Aragorn and Eomer weren't people who believed in self-determination obviously.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

As an update to whether Rohan annexed Enedwaith in the Fourth Age, I also distinctly remember some reference somewhere to Rohan at the same time also expanding northwards over the Limlight to the southern eaves of Lorien AND eastwards over the Anduin from the Wold into the Brown Lands.

Anyone read these stories too ?

I don't recall anything like that. It's difficult to see the Rohirrim taking territory to which they had no right, or without the inhabitants of the area asking them.
Also, did they really need to do so? I don't remember anything that indicated they were on the verge of outgrowing their Third Age boundaries.

x/d with Elmo

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Did the 'numerous fisher folk' of Enedwaith have much say in whoever annexed them? It's a bit dodgy also Rohan expanding their borders to the lands between the Isen and the Adorn as the loyalty of the people of this land was generally directed towards Dunland. Aragorn and Eomer weren't people who believed in self-determination obviously.

A'right 'en min, Elmo min?

Well... they were kings so I don't exactly think that the concerns of fisherfolk bothered them too much.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/in...Age&TID=191966