Evil Elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

10-23-2003, 02:38 PM

No doubt a foolish question, but can elves be evil or malicious (without Sauron corrupting them)? Also, where's the legend for the posting icons?

Meela · 10-23-2003, 03:04 PM

I believe there was an evil elf or two, but I don't know the details.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 10-23-2003, 07:12 PM

It's not necessarily that the Elves are evil, they are just not all that nice. Evil is the complete lack of any iota of good. But you get some Elves like Eol... makes you wonder.

Tinuviel of Denton · 10-23-2003, 08:51 PM

I would disagree that Eol was all bad, if indeed you were implying such. He does seem to love Aredhel in his way; at least, she was almost happy with him until Maeglin started to grow up and she told him stories of her family and he suggested that they go to them.

Maeglin, on the other hand, I think could be called evil. Maybe. He did l.ust after his cousin (apparently akin to lus.ting one's sister to the elves) and his heart turned dark when she didn't return his love. And he wasn't exactly a filial son, either. Standing there watching his father get thrown off a cliff...

[ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

StarJewel · 10-23-2003, 09:02 PM

I think part of the problem with Maeglin was isolation. I mean, he spent the whole first part of his life with no other elf contact except his mother and father. He couldn't really relate to people.
Kind of playing devil's advocate here, but all in all, Maeglin was probably the closest thing to a truly evil elf.

Luinadar · 10-24-2003, 10:27 AM

I always found Saeros's behaviour towards Turin in Doriath pretty contemptable if not actually evil in places, I mean he did actually try and run a sword through him in a sneak attack!

Fyara · 10-24-2003, 11:06 AM

mine elvish name is maeglin? does that mean im evil [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

10-24-2003, 01:21 PM

Thanks for the responses! Although I still don't know what any of these little symbols on the side mean - the sword, the pint? Is there a key somewhere, because I can't find it.

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-24-2003, 01:29 PM

Hi, flyers, and welcome to the Downs! There is no *official* list of meanings for the icons, but for an interesting discussion of people's ideas on them, please check out this topic: Icons. Enjoy!

Lord of Angmar · 10-24-2003, 04:13 PM

There were no Elves that were irreedemably evil, as far as I know. Even Elves who lived or occassionally acted immorally (Eol, Maeglin, Feanor, Celegorm, Curufin, etc.) could, I am sure, be absolved in the afterlife in the Halls of Mandos.

lore_master · 10-25-2003, 12:57 PM

in my opinion Feanor, or Meaglin would be the closest things there could be to an "evil" elf.

Silmiel of Imladris · 10-28-2003, 04:21 PM

Feanor and all his sons were jerks except that one whose name I always forget. Anyway Thingol was no saint either even if he was with the good guys. If I was going to pick anyone to play Thingol if they made the Sil into a movie it would be Jason Isaacs. (Lucius from Harry Potter and Col. Tavington from The Patriot) Isaacs is great at playing characters you want to strangle and I wanted choke Thingol quite a few times.

Arwen1858 · 10-28-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

If I was going to pick anyone to play Thingol if they made the Sil into a movie it would be Jason Isaacs. (Lucius from Harry Potter and Col. Tavington from The Patriot) Isaacs is great at playing characters you want to strangle and I wanted choke Thingol quite a few times.

Great idea, Silmiel! He would be perfect!!! I certainly wanted to strangle Tavington, so if Isaacs played Thingol the same way, that could be really good!! Just thought I'd mention that!
Even though I don't think Thingol is actually evil, I still don't like him.
Arwen

Finwe · 10-30-2003, 11:03 PM

I don't think that any of the Elves were truly evil (although Maeglin got pretty damn close!), they just didn't adjust to their surroundings. Almost all of the Noldor that emigrated to Beleriand are characterized as arrogant, haughty, overbearing, etc. Why, you ask? In Valinor, they were at the lowest rungs of the hierarchy, whereas in Beleriand, and in all of Middle-earth, they were the superior race, the Elder Children, the teachers, and the mentors. They enjoyed that newfound power, and power is very hard not to abuse.

Lyta_Underhill · 10-31-2003, 10:38 AM

Quote:

No doubt a foolish question, but can elves be evil or malicious (without Sauron corrupting them)?

I'd have to say no for the ones we have specific histories of; the most common examples of Maeglin and Fëanor were explicitly corrupted and their weaknesses taken advantage of by Morgoth and/or his minions. Even those who were twisted in the dungeons of Morgoth over long periods were never by innate nature evil, just tortured beyond endurance.

Interesting idea to have Jason Isaacs play Thingol, Silmiel! I actually had in mind casting W.C. Fields as Thingol (impossible of course, because he's long dead!), because the theme of sending the young man to retrieve great wealth in exchange for his daughter seems to fit a lot of Fields' movies! This is, of course, a spoof I am considering. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And, Finwe, as for the Elves' arrogance concerning their relation to the Younger Children of Eru, I'd call it more a weakness and blindness than evil, the example of Thingol being most prominent here. I prefer the more benevolent image of Finrod going among Men and forging a relationship with them through song, and going on to finally sacrifice his life for Beren in the dungeons of Morgoth. I suppose some elves understood or at least intuited Eru's purpose and some did not and lived by their own plan, some falling into evil by so doing.

Cheers,
Lyta

Amrod the Hunter · 11-28-2004, 08:38 AM

I think Maeglin was the only evil elf,and he is more mad than evil.Feanor and his sons were all hot-headed,not evil,and that's why they did all they did.And in the end,they all feel sorry,especially Maedhros.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-28-2004, 12:12 PM

It is very clear that Elves can be malicious.

As for evil, there are numerous discussions on the nature of evil in Tolkien's legendarium on the Barrowdowns (some of which are quite hard to sift through) so it's worth a look in those. I can't link to one but just key in 'evil' in the search and I'm sure you'll find something useful.

Lachwen · 11-28-2004, 06:52 PM

I don't think any of the Elves were ever truly "evil." Some were misled, corrupted, arrogant or driven to madness, but evil? No. Malicious? Occasionally. Fëanor abandoning the rest of the Noldor and burning the Telerin ships at Losgar was certainly malicious, as was Eöl's attempt to slay Maeglin (well, that might be considered more selfish than malicious...) and Celegorm and Curufin's plan to usurp the throne of Nargothrond. Maeglin's actions, too, were malicious, even before Morgoth offered him Idril for Gondolin (remember how he always spoke against the councils of Tuor?).

So the short answer is: No, I don't think any of them were evil, but they could be malicious.

gorthaur_cruel · 11-29-2004, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.

Nothing conclusive, but...

10-23-2003, 02:38 PM	#1
flyers82 Guest Posts: n/a	Evil Elves? No doubt a foolish question, but can elves be evil or malicious (without Sauron corrupting them)? Also, where's the legend for the posting icons?

10-23-2003, 03:04 PM	#2
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	I believe there was an evil elf or two, but I don't know the details. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

10-23-2003, 07:12 PM	#3
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	It's not necessarily that the Elves are evil, they are just not all that nice. Evil is the complete lack of any iota of good. But you get some Elves like Eol... makes you wonder. __________________ peace

10-23-2003, 09:02 PM	#5
StarJewel Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: I'm in my dear Maedhros' arms, dreaming the day away. Oh, who am I kidding, Chicago is nothing like that! Posts: 116	I think part of the problem with Maeglin was isolation. I mean, he spent the whole first part of his life with no other elf contact except his mother and father. He couldn't really relate to people. Kind of playing devil's advocate here, but all in all, Maeglin was probably the closest thing to a truly evil elf. __________________ Visit my writing site...if you dare http://www.fanfiction.net/~mirielamarian

10-24-2003, 10:27 AM	#6
Luinadar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vinyamar, Nevrast Posts: 23	I always found Saeros's behaviour towards Turin in Doriath pretty contemptable if not actually evil in places, I mean he did actually try and run a sword through him in a sneak attack! __________________ He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust...

10-23-2003, 08:51 PM	#4
Tinuviel of Denton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amid the hills and dales of the Shire... or not. Posts: 579	I would disagree that Eol was all bad, if indeed you were implying such. He does seem to love Aredhel in his way; at least, she was almost happy with him until Maeglin started to grow up and she told him stories of her family and he suggested that they go to them. Maeglin, on the other hand, I think could be called evil. Maybe. He did l.ust after his cousin (apparently akin to lus.ting one's sister to the elves) and his heart turned dark when she didn't return his love. And he wasn't exactly a filial son, either. Standing there watching his father get thrown off a cliff... [ October 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

10-24-2003, 11:06 AM	#7
Fyara Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 17	mine elvish name is maeglin? does that mean im evil [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ Love is but one aspect of live that is among the hardest to explain

10-24-2003, 01:21 PM	#8
flyers82 Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks for the responses! Although I still don't know what any of these little symbols on the side mean - the sword, the pint? Is there a key somewhere, because I can't find it.

10-24-2003, 01:29 PM	#9
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,499	Hi, flyers, and welcome to the Downs! There is no official list of meanings for the icons, but for an interesting discussion of people's ideas on them, please check out this topic: Icons. Enjoy! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

10-24-2003, 04:13 PM	#10
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	There were no Elves that were irreedemably evil, as far as I know. Even Elves who lived or occassionally acted immorally (Eol, Maeglin, Feanor, Celegorm, Curufin, etc.) could, I am sure, be absolved in the afterlife in the Halls of Mandos. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

10-25-2003, 12:57 PM	#11
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	in my opinion Feanor, or Meaglin would be the closest things there could be to an "evil" elf. __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

10-28-2003, 04:21 PM	#12
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	Feanor and all his sons were jerks except that one whose name I always forget. Anyway Thingol was no saint either even if he was with the good guys. If I was going to pick anyone to play Thingol if they made the Sil into a movie it would be Jason Isaacs. (Lucius from Harry Potter and Col. Tavington from The Patriot) Isaacs is great at playing characters you want to strangle and I wanted choke Thingol quite a few times. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

10-30-2003, 11:03 PM	#14
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think that any of the Elves were truly evil (although Maeglin got pretty damn close!), they just didn't adjust to their surroundings. Almost all of the Noldor that emigrated to Beleriand are characterized as arrogant, haughty, overbearing, etc. Why, you ask? In Valinor, they were at the lowest rungs of the hierarchy, whereas in Beleriand, and in all of Middle-earth, they were the superior race, the Elder Children, the teachers, and the mentors. They enjoyed that newfound power, and power is very hard not to abuse. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-28-2004, 08:38 AM	#16
Amrod the Hunter Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 54	I think Maeglin was the only evil elf,and he is more mad than evil.Feanor and his sons were all hot-headed,not evil,and that's why they did all they did.And in the end,they all feel sorry,especially Maedhros.

11-28-2004, 12:12 PM	#17
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	It is very clear that Elves can be malicious. As for evil, there are numerous discussions on the nature of evil in Tolkien's legendarium on the Barrowdowns (some of which are quite hard to sift through) so it's worth a look in those. I can't link to one but just key in 'evil' in the search and I'm sure you'll find something useful. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-28-2004, 06:52 PM	#18
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	I don't think any of the Elves were ever truly "evil." Some were misled, corrupted, arrogant or driven to madness, but evil? No. Malicious? Occasionally. Fëanor abandoning the rest of the Noldor and burning the Telerin ships at Losgar was certainly malicious, as was Eöl's attempt to slay Maeglin (well, that might be considered more selfish than malicious...) and Celegorm and Curufin's plan to usurp the throne of Nargothrond. Maeglin's actions, too, were malicious, even before Morgoth offered him Idril for Gondolin (remember how he always spoke against the councils of Tuor?). So the short answer is: No, I don't think any of them were evil, but they could be malicious. __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"