Robe colours

[Sauron the deciever]

Hey everyone
Just wondering if someone can help me here. What colour robes are the highest I thought it was white but can you go any higher? And what order do the colours go from the least powerful? Tnaks it would be great if someone can help me out. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[the real findorfin]

I preseume white is the best, signifying purity.

White - good Saruman (purity)
Grey - Gandalf (white sullied by hard work?)
Blue - Pallando/Alatar (dunno but Manwe's robes are blue, sky =freedom perhaps)
Brown - Radagast (nature)

Thats my guess but feel free to disagree (hey that rhyms (sp)) wow!

[Legolas]

White was apparently reserved for the chief of the Istari (as the chief would be seen as Sauron's biggest adversary), but the other colours didn't say anything about the rank of their corresponding wizards. I estimated the following reasons for each colour:

Radagast the Brown - brown being an earth tone, associated with the earth and nature, just as Radagast was in love with nature.

Gandalf the Grey - grey being a reflection of Gandalf's humble character. Not pleasing to the eye, or even eye-catching. "Don't judge a book by its cover" blah blah etc. etc.

Alatar and Pallando, the Blue Wizards - This is more speculative than the others, but I presume their sea-blue robes are a sign that they're quite different. Different from the other wizards, and different from the peoples of Middle-earth in the northwestern corner we're told about. All the other characters we see are wearing greens, browns - nothing that stands out like sea-blue would.

[Sauron the deciever]

Thanks. Why dont we hear about Alatar and Pallando? Im nearly finished with The fellowship of the ring and i havent heard of them yet they arent in the movies either. do they have anything to do with the ring etc?

[elven maiden Earwen]

white
grey
brown
blue
thats what i think [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[elven maiden Earwen]

alatar and pallono were the blue wizards who went into the east and disappered so the are never heard of again\

[The Saucepan Man]

Doesn't Saruman assume the title "multi-coloured" following his corruption?

[Galorme]

Saruman made his "many colours" out of his one colour. By doing this he had broken it and spread it out, thus dimishing its power. This symbolises what happens to his strength, he spreads it around to make machinary and controling orcs, he broke his power apart in folly.

[doug*platypus]

It's my very humble opinion that white was the only colour that had a rank. White was the chief of the order, which Saruman cast off, and which Gandalf was clothed in when he returned. I'm sure Galadriel enjoyed that very much, actually, since she had always wanted Gandalf to be the head of the Council.

I think that the other colours had no rank associated with them (sorry for the many of you who wish they did, and try to impose a system based on who was actually in the robes), but were merely a reflection on the owner. Possibly also a sign of the Vala with whom they identified - weren't the friends Alatar and Pallando both Maiar of Oromë? It is significant that both of them wore blue. Radagast is obviously suited to a natural colour, and perhaps Grey for Gandalf is drab, because he is very humble.

[Legolas]

doug, none of the answers here (except elven maiden who doesn't seem to be using any sort of logic) said the robe colours carry any rank aside from white. They obviously don't. Nonetheless, it's all speculation, and in a matter such as this (where Tolkien does not say), apologizing for an opinion that can't be contended with is not necessary. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Sauron the Deciever: As stated above, Alatar and Pallando went into the East of Middle-earth with Saruman, but didn't return when he did. We don't know what became of them. Their names only come up in
Unfinished Tales and The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth. To read the excerpts about them from these two books, check out the article I wrote about them here:
http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_otherwizards.asp

[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Sauron the deciever]

Well that was certainly interesting, thankyou very much. I learn someting everyday here at barrow downs [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

Legalos,

Sauron the deciever wrote:

And what order do the colours go from the least powerful?

the real findorfin wrote:

White - good Saruman (purity)
Grey - Gandalf (white sullied by hard work?)
Blue - Pallando/Alatar (dunno but Manwe's robes are blue, sky =freedom perhaps)
Brown - Radagast (nature)

I should, however, have read the other posts more clearly. It seems to be a popular opinion that the colours were not about ranks... but that by no means makes it universally "obvious".

[ January 15, 2003: Message edited by: doug*platypus ]

[the real findorfin]

I actually put them in order of the most powerful (in my opinion) and not in colour order (although they might be linked. Saruman is obviosuly most powerful to begin with. Gandalf is under him just. I put the Blue Wizards before Radagast because he only journeyed to ME at the bidding of Yavanna and should not really have been an Istari (if you see what I mean).

[Legolas]

findorfin, but that's based on character - not strictly colour, as you're explanations of colour were based on character too.

There is, perhaps, a rank of wisdom (as far as handling their mission goes) that is fairly obvious, if not in an exact order, where I imagine it would be Gandalf, Radagast, Pallando/Alatar, and Saruman.

Gandalf stuck to the mission, Radagast strayed from it by neglecting people and helping animals, Pallando/Alatar shipped out East immediately, and Saruman thought he could take Sauron's place.

[ January 15, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[the witch king]

Black is more powerful than white, im shure theres a quote refering to sauron but i cant find it.

[Aratlithiel]

Saruman is obviosuly most powerful to begin with. Gandalf is under him just.

Not true. Saruman was the 1st to arrive in ME and the wisest in Ring-lore but not the wisest overall and not the most powerful. In fact it is told in "Unfinished Tales," that a great deal of his motivation for his eventual fall to evil was jealousy of Gandalf. The jealousy began when the Valar decided that 3 of the Istari should go to ME to help Men and Elves defend it against Sauron and asked for volunteers. Alatar (one of the blue) and Curumo (Saruman) stepped forward but Olorin (Gandalf) did not because he said he was too weak for the task & that he feared Sauron. Manwe then said that it was all the more reason why he should go and then commanded him to go as the third. "But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not as the third'; and Curumo remembered it."

His jealousy is further provoked when Galadriel argues vehemently that Gandalf should be the head of the Order and loses. After this, "Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf and his rivalry turned at last to hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength...even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence."

Because Saruman came 1st it is often believed that he was, in fact, the most powerful - but that's not true. Cirdan greets all of the Istari as they arrive in ME but in Gandalf, "...he divined in him the greates spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him withe reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red." It's about the time of the council where Galadriel fights to have Gandalf appointed as the chief of the Istari that Saruman discovers that Cirdan has given Narya to Gandalf.

All of these perceived slights give Saruman ample reason for his hatred of Gandalf and his desire to see him destroyed - a leading factor in his fall.

As for the blue wizards, they went into the east with Curunir/Curomo/Saruman but they never returned and it is speculated that they were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants but it is not known.

Alatar/Rhadaghast seems to be the "kid brother" that the others had to take along to please Yavanna - it's never really explained why she wanted him to go and he doesn't seem to have served any real purpose except to alert the eagles to watch out for Gandalf.

I've also got a theory about the "white" that I've been turning over for awhile. I can't give you explicit passages or examples because it comes from reading alot of other Tolkien work and kinda putting two and two together - you can all let me know if I came up with four...

I believe that the white was given to that Istari who was supposed to be the most instrumental in the Quest to destroy the Ring. It started out with Saruman who was the most learned in Ring-lore. Remember, now - he started out good and with the same purpose as the others until his jealousy got the better of him. When he discarded white for his many colors, and when Gandalf fell to the Balrog (fighting to the last for the purpose he was sent for) it was ordained that he should be sent back and take up the white.

Like I said, this comes from reading many different sources but the best example I can give is from TTT when Gandalf meets the hunters and says, "Yes, I am white now. Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been."

What do you think?

[Laialthriel]

Very good thoughts. What you say makes a great ammount of sense, but alas, since I have not yet read the books that would aid me in discussing this with you, I cannot offer a whole lot of new ideas. I can say that I got a very similar idea from what I have read.

When Gandalf came back I at first thought that he might not have died in the first place, but later it became clear that was not correct. So I wondered why Gandalf was allowed to come back. Your theory makes sense...at least to me.

Which brings me to another question which I don't think is really worthy of a whole new thread, so I will put it here if you all don't mind.

When Gandalf fell with the Barlog, I became confused when he ended up on top of a mountain. I have a lot of quickly concocted theories which I will not embarass myself with by posting them here. So my question is; how did the battle end up on a mountain, and what was the name of that mountain?

blessings!

~*Laialthriel*~

[Legolas]

Just a note - Galadriel thinks Gandalf should be head of the White Council - not the head of the Istari, a matter she had no say in.

Laialthriel - You should read the books - much more complete (especially in explaining) than the movies. Gandalf gave an account of the Battle of the Peak.

In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair. [...]
'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirak-zigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. ... Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire.

This isn't the entire account - I have to leave some for you to read on your own!

Celebdil (aka the Silvertine, Zirakzigil) was the peak they battled to. It was near Caradhras, the mountain you might recall from The Fellowship of the Ring when the Fellowship attempts to cross over the Misty Mountains. It's the mountain they're on when the snow forces them to go to Moria. Both Caradhras and Celebdil were over Khazad-dum.

Durin’s Tower was a tower the dwarves built on/into the peak of Celebdil. The Endless Stair they climbed extended from the depths of Khazad-dum to Durin's Tower at the peak of the mountain.

Also, Aratlithiel:

Alatar/Rhadaghast seems to be the "kid brother" that the others had to take along to please Yavanna - it's never really explained why she wanted him to go and he doesn't seem to have served any real purpose except to alert the eagles to watch out for Gandalf.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Alatar and Radagast were not the same person. Radagast was included by Yavanna for reasons apart from Manwe's reason for the emissaries being sent. It was made clear in Radagast's actions why Yavanna sent him - as one of her people, he was enamoured by the wildlife of Middle-earth and tended to the aspects of the world Yavanna so dearly loved. This was her hidden motivation for having him included. He is by no means a 'kid brother' - he didn't request to tag along himself. He was sent by his boss lady.

Alatar, on the other hand, was one of the Blue Wizards.

[ January 15, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Nevolosse Maehayanda]

ah ha! but Galadriel says that she wants Gandalf to be the head of the WHITE council...is that a bit of foreshadowing for Gandalf the WHITE? And wouldn't the head of the Istari automaticaly be the head of the council? Being the more wise and more dedciated....


[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Laialthriel]

Many thanks Legalos, for quenching my curiosity. I know the answer(s) I am looking for are in the books so I really should stop asking all of these nagging questions and read them! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Until then I just want to give my sincerest thank you to all of you for patiently answering my questions. The Novices and Newcomers forum seems to have the same kinds of topics over and over again and it can get old hanging around there all of the time.

~*Laial

[Aratlithiel]

Alatar and Radagast were not the same person

You're right - my mistake. I meant Aiwendil.

Radagast was included by Yavanna for reasons apart from Manwe's reason for the emissaries being sent.It was made clear in Radagast's actions why Yavanna sent him

Quote from UT in the essay of the Istari - "For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men...", and later "...that in becoming enamoured of the wild creatures of Middle-earth Radagast neglected the purpose for which he was sent is perhaps not perfectly in accord with the idea of his being specially chosen by Yavanna."

The council of the Valar was summoned specifically to address the issue of Sauron and choose peers of his to assist in the struggle of Men and Elves against him. Regardless of any hidden motivation Yavanna may have had, Aiwendil/Radagast's task, as appointed to him and the other Istari by the council, was to aid Men and Elves in this struggle. He forsook Men and Elves and therefore failed his task.

He is by no means a 'kid brother'

I'm not trying to insult the guy or anything, but he wasn't necessary or wanted. Aiwendil/Radagast was sent only because Yavanna begged Curuno/Saruman to take him. Manwe did not want five Istari - he wanted three and only allowed Aiwendil/Radagast at the behest of Aule who pleaded his wife's case to Manwe.

[doug*platypus]

Rhadaghast seems to be the "kid brother" that the others had to take along to please Yavanna

Ha! I'm fully with you on that one, that's classic.

"Where do you think you're going?"

"Middle-Earth, with my mates."

"You take Radagast with you, Curumo!"

"Do I have to??"

New theory:

Alatar and Pallando were not the Blue Wizards. The correct translation from Ithryn Luin is The Blues Wizards. They were on "a mission from Eru", and their rambunctious exploits in the East, while not helping the war against Sauron, later became a popular film.

Is it possible that the Istari only gained or made their coloured robes once their functions in Middle-Earth were determined? It may be more than coincidence that Saruman the White was the leader of the White Council.

[Legolas]

I'm fully aware Radagast didn't fulfill the mission of the Istari. I never said he did. I just told his real motivation for going.

...it's never really explained why she wanted him to go and he doesn't seem to have served any real purpose except to alert the eagles to watch out for Gandalf.

You seem to miss the point. You said you didn't see any reason for Radagast going, and I cleared that up. Yavanna wanted him sent so she could have someone watching over nature up-close.

Manwe could've easily guessed that Radagast wouldn't stick to the mission. However, his proposition was to send three Istari, and the two that volunteered, Saruman and Alatar, along with Gandalf, whom Manwe hand-picked, were enough for him apparently.

Yavanna started whining. I'm sure his response was "Yeah, eh, whatever, tree-hugger."

There was a reason for Radagast going, it just wasn't the intentions of the Council of the Valar. He failed, as far as the "real" mission was concerned.

[doug*platypus]

Definitely. There is a large sense of afterthought when Aiwendil is introduced, and I fully agree that it is only the complaints of Yavanna and not any sense of Aiwendil's suitability for such a mammoth task. Manwë at least only seems concerned with the two main Istari. And Varda may even have wanted Olórin to go on his own, since she basically insults Curumo to his face. Gandalf seems to be quite a ladies' man.

[Legolas]

Gandalf seems to be quite a ladies' man.

haha, never thought of it like that!

[Rumil]

Aralithiel, I like your idea on this, perhaps the 'white' signified the 'chief' opponent of Sauron (obviously being diametrically opposed to the 'black).

Although Gandalf was recognised by Cirdan as having the greatest 'power' or maybe potential, he seems to have mainly been involved with Northern Middle Earth (ie Erebor, Rivendell, the Shire etc.) whereas Saruman was more firmly based in the South at Isengard. Naturally there are plenty of exceptions (Gandalf in Minas Tirith, Saruman in the Shire etc).

You might have expected that Saruman would have led the armies of Rohan and Gondor against Sauron. Of couse this was all changed by Saruman's treachery, so this 'task' was laid upon Gandalf. Therefore he had to become 'the white' ie. Saruman as he should have been.