How did he die..........? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-20-2004, 07:24 PM

I was wondering, I thought that Naz Gul couldn't die...How did Eoywn kill him(granted I know Pipin did stab him w/ his own blade, but was that the only way to kill it, and why is it painful to him when he stabs the Naz Gul with the blade) Or was it just that the Naz Gul meant it literally when he said that "no man could kill him" and that only a women could? Does anyone know the answer

Teleri · 01-20-2004, 07:48 PM

Well for one thing, Merry is the one that stabs him. As to how he dies, it's not as clear in the movie. They make it seem like he has a barrier against men, and a woman or a hobbit could get through it. In the book Merry gets his special sword from the barrowdowns, after nearly being put to sleep forever by a barrow-wight. This sword was made for the purpose of defeating the Nazgul Lord. When I have time I'll post the quote... Anyway in the book, the Nazgul overlooks Merry (ironic because Merry is now tired of being overlooked), and Merry is able to sneak behing him, and stab him with this sword that was made to destroy him, then Eowyn just finishes him off with a stab to the head.

Gil Galad · 01-20-2004, 07:52 PM

It was Merry not Pippin.....Think of it as a team effort, remember in the book merry got his numenoroen(sp) blade back and it had the "bane of the dark lord" accoring to bombadil and he also said it could slay sauron's minions. The stab to the back of the leg Merry gave wasn't enough to kill the witch king but enough to weaken him so he could die. My theory is that the witch king stabbed in the right places would have died instantly, but he would have died from the wound anyway so Eoywon just "made his passing easier" so to speak.[ 8:52 PM January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Gil Galad ]

doug*platypus · 01-20-2004, 08:01 PM

10,000 Members !!!Congrats, Barrowdowns, you're obviously doing something right! You're right to frown, Queen Vic, the movie can't make his death as clear as it is in the book. There is a paragraph or two devoted to Merry's Barrowblade (hmm... Barrowblade... that would make a nice nick!) and how it was "wound about with spells for the destruction of Morgul". Likewise the Nazgûl were afraid of Frodo's blade on Weathertop (book again, I'm afraid). These weapons had been made by the Dúnedain, and 'enchanted' (for wont of a better word) to destroy such things as the Nazgûl.There is a heavy implication that Merry's blade has a major part to play in killing the Witch-King, but still it is Éowyn's stabbing him in the head that finishes the job. In the movie, the origin of Merry's sword is unclear, although they were handled (i.e. thrown about) as being very common by Strider. So, Éowyn's sword-stroke was what killed Witchy (remember when Aragorn attacked them, he slashed at their cloaks and set them on fire but did not pierce them). The Witch-King's remark that no man could kill him refers to a prophecy made that "not by the hand of man will he fall". This doesn't say that he couldn't be killed by a man, but it does mean that he wouldn't be, since in Tolkien's world prophecies always ring true.In the TTT movie, Gollum says "no, you cannot kill them" which you might say is a bit inconsistent. But after all, what would Gollum (especially movieGollum) know? Sorry I've been so longwinded... one of those days.

Teleri · 01-20-2004, 08:08 PM

Here it is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when when the Dunedain were young, and cheif among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not thought mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So Merry's sword was made to defeat him, but it was lost long ago to the Barrow-downs, and would have stayed there forever had it not caught Merry's eye among the treasure. I always assumed that in the end no man could defeat the Witch King because even if they had the right sword, they would not get close enough to stab him, it would take a hobbit's great heart for that.

Gil Galad · 01-20-2004, 08:26 PM

And Eoywn's courage don't forget that.

The Dark Elf · 01-20-2004, 08:57 PM

the westernesse blade was like magic or something and it broke his immortality spell.

Moonmaid · 01-22-2004, 04:19 AM

I've always considered his death to be a sum of many things. First it's Merry's sword (which, btw, will in the movie be king Theoden's boyhood sword...). And second, it's that no living man -thing. And if you will be nitpicky (that I am...) you could say that neither Eowyn nor Merry is. Eowyn is a woman, not a man and Merry is a Hobbit, not a Man (human...). Interesting, isn't it...?

Lobelia · 01-22-2004, 05:33 AM

"Merry is...not a man(human)". Quite right! As a matter of fact, in the book (sorry) he stresses this at Isengard, when being introduced to King Theoden as a "man of valour(?)" or some such; he is indignant at being referred to as a man when he is a hobbit. That's important, later - but it didn't happen in the film, so presumably viewers are meant to figure it out or know it already.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 01-22-2004, 12:51 PM

It was actually Pippin whom Gandalf referred to as a Man in front of the guards of Gondor, not Merry.So if Merry gets a sword from Theoden, he'll have that one plus the one he got from Aragorn, plus the Elvish blade he got from Galadriel. Its a wonder he even managed to crawl over to the Witch King with all those bloody swords hanging from his belt!

Legolas · 01-22-2004, 05:14 PM

Teleri is mostly correct. The sword Merry used was from the Barrow-Downs, where the Barrow-wights dwelt. They were spirits sent there by the Witch-King many years before when his realm of Angmar was at war with Arnor, the northern sister-kingdom of Gondor. This presents a problem in the story because the scene where Merry gets the sword is completely left out, leaving one to think that Merry was able to kill the Witch-king with the normal dagger Aragorn gave him at Amon Sul in the movie.Any man *could* have killed the Witch-king with that same sword. It didn't have anything to do with ability - Glorfindel, the elf that comes to Frodo's aid shamefully replaced by Arwen in the movies, prophesied many years before that a man *wouldn't* kill the Witch-King, not that a man *couldn't* as in having the physical means to.This question has been answered a few times elsewhere in each of the three discussion forums. <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003624" TARGET=_blank>Read all about it here</A>.[ 6:17 PM January 22, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

01-20-2004, 07:24 PM	#1
QN_Victoria Guest Posts: n/a	How did he die..........? I was wondering, I thought that Naz Gul couldn't die...How did Eoywn kill him(granted I know Pipin did stab him w/ his own blade, but was that the only way to kill it, and why is it painful to him when he stabs the Naz Gul with the blade) Or was it just that the Naz Gul meant it literally when he said that "no man could kill him" and that only a women could? Does anyone know the answer

01-20-2004, 07:48 PM	#2
Teleri Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: U.S.A., though I'd prefer the Shire Posts: 45	Well for one thing, Merry is the one that stabs him. As to how he dies, it's not as clear in the movie. They make it seem like he has a barrier against men, and a woman or a hobbit could get through it. <P>In the book Merry gets his special sword from the barrowdowns, after nearly being put to sleep forever by a barrow-wight. This sword was made for the purpose of defeating the Nazgul Lord. When I have time I'll post the quote... Anyway in the book, the Nazgul overlooks Merry (ironic because Merry is now tired of being overlooked), and Merry is able to sneak behing him, and stab him with this sword that was made to destroy him, then Eowyn just finishes him off with a stab to the head. __________________ "But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand."

01-20-2004, 07:52 PM	#3
Gil Galad Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: hmm... good question.... Posts: 58	It was Merry not Pippin.....<P>Think of it as a team effort, remember in the book merry got his numenoroen(sp) blade back and it had the "bane of the dark lord" accoring to bombadil and he also said it could slay sauron's minions. The stab to the back of the leg Merry gave wasn't enough to kill the witch king but enough to weaken him so he could die. My theory is that the witch king stabbed in the right places would have died instantly, but he would have died from the wound anyway so Eoywon just "made his passing easier" so to speak.<p>[ 8:52 PM January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Gil Galad ] __________________ A red sun rises... blood has been spilt this night.- Legolas TTT Certainty of death, small chance of success... what are we waiting for?- Gimli ROTK

01-20-2004, 08:01 PM	#4
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 963	<B>10,000 Members !!!</B><P>Congrats, Barrowdowns, you're obviously doing <I>something</I> right! <P>You're right to frown, Queen Vic, the movie can't make his death as clear as it is in the book. There is a paragraph or two devoted to Merry's Barrowblade (hmm... Barrowblade... that would make a <B>nice</B> nick!) and how it was "wound about with spells for the destruction of Morgul". Likewise the Nazgûl were afraid of Frodo's blade on Weathertop (book again, I'm afraid). These weapons had been made by the Dúnedain, and 'enchanted' (for wont of a better word) to destroy such things as the Nazgûl.<P>There is a heavy implication that Merry's blade has a major part to play in killing the Witch-King, but still it is Éowyn's stabbing him in the head that finishes the job. In the movie, the origin of Merry's sword is unclear, although they were handled (i.e. thrown about) as being very common by Strider. So, Éowyn's sword-stroke was what killed Witchy (remember when Aragorn attacked them, he slashed at their cloaks and set them on fire but did not pierce them). The Witch-King's remark that no man could kill him refers to a prophecy made that "not by the hand of man will he fall". This doesn't say that he <I>couldn't</I> be killed by a man, but it does mean that he <I>wouldn't</I> be, since in Tolkien's world prophecies always ring true.<P>In the TTT movie, Gollum says "no, you cannot kill them" which you might say is a bit inconsistent. But after all, what would Gollum (especially movieGollum) know? Sorry I've been so longwinded... one of those days. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-20-2004, 08:08 PM	#5
Teleri Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: U.S.A., though I'd prefer the Shire Posts: 45	Here it is. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when when the Dunedain were young, and cheif among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not thought mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>So Merry's sword was made to defeat him, but it was lost long ago to the Barrow-downs, and would have stayed there forever had it not caught Merry's eye among the treasure. <P>I always assumed that in the end no man could defeat the Witch King because even if they had the right sword, they would not get close enough to stab him, it would take a hobbit's great heart for that. __________________ "But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand."

01-20-2004, 08:26 PM	#6
Gil Galad Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: hmm... good question.... Posts: 58	And Eoywn's courage don't forget that. __________________ A red sun rises... blood has been spilt this night.- Legolas TTT Certainty of death, small chance of success... what are we waiting for?- Gimli ROTK

01-20-2004, 08:57 PM	#7
The Dark Elf Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Angmar Posts: 74	the westernesse blade was like magic or something and it broke his immortality spell. __________________ "Fool of a Took!"

01-22-2004, 04:19 AM	#8
Moonmaid Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The shores of Baltic Sea Posts: 13	I've always considered his death to be a sum of many things. First it's Merry's sword (which, btw, will in the movie be king Theoden's boyhood sword...). And second, it's that no living man -thing. And if you will be nitpicky (that I am...) you could say that neither Eowyn nor Merry is. Eowyn is a woman, not a man and Merry is a Hobbit, not a Man (human...). Interesting, isn't it...? __________________ "Fate does not always seek our consent." -- Zeddicus Z'ul Zorander

01-22-2004, 05:33 AM	#9
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	"Merry is...not a man(human)". Quite right! As a matter of fact, in the book (sorry) he stresses this at Isengard, when being introduced to King Theoden as a "man of valour(?)" or some such; he is indignant at being referred to as a man when he is a hobbit. That's important, later - but it didn't happen in the film, so presumably viewers are meant to figure it out or know it already.

01-22-2004, 12:51 PM	#10
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	It was actually Pippin whom Gandalf referred to as a Man in front of the guards of Gondor, not Merry.<P>So if Merry gets a sword from Theoden, he'll have that one plus the one he got from Aragorn, plus the Elvish blade he got from Galadriel. Its a wonder he even managed to crawl over to the Witch King with all those bloody swords hanging from his belt! __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

01-22-2004, 05:14 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Teleri is mostly correct. The sword Merry used was from the Barrow-Downs, where the Barrow-wights dwelt. They were spirits sent there by the Witch-King many years before when his realm of Angmar was at war with Arnor, the northern sister-kingdom of Gondor. This presents a problem in the story because the scene where Merry gets the sword is completely left out, leaving one to think that Merry was able to kill the Witch-king with the normal dagger Aragorn gave him at Amon Sul in the movie.<P>Any man could have killed the Witch-king with that same sword. It didn't have anything to do with ability - Glorfindel, the elf that comes to Frodo's aid shamefully replaced by Arwen in the movies, prophesied many years before that a man wouldn't kill the Witch-King, <B>not</B> that a man couldn't as in having the physical means to.<P>This question has been answered a few times elsewhere in each of the three discussion forums. <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=003624" TARGET=_blank>Read all about it here</A>.<p>[ 6:17 PM January 22, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.