Killing Gandalf

[Fingolfin II]

Quote from my PM to Estelyn:

I don't have any evidence on me to support this, but I'm pretty sure that the spirit of Men also go to Mandos, but in a separate place, as bilbo_baggins said. However, this is only temporary, and soon their spirits pass beyond Mandos and outside of Arda.

Much obliged if somebody could provide a quote to support/disprove what I just said above.

More on topic, bilbo_baggins said-

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

The Valar did not kill Morgoth even for all his heinous crimes, but perhaps they had a lot of mercy.

As I said in my previous post, I don't believe that the Valar had the power to kill Morgoth; merely cast him into the Void at the bidding of Eru. Certainly if they do have this power to destroy his fea, then they didn't exercise it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Fingolfin II -

This may help support your point. See Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Author's Notes on the Commentary, note 4, for this :

....because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (without choice in the Matter: their free will in regard to death was taken away.) There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted. No living Man was allowed to go to Aman. No fëa of a dead Man ever returned to life in Middle-earth.

This seems to be one of those clarifications framed in terms of "It is said or believed", rather than a clear statement of fact. But this is a device that Tolkien employs time and again (such as Sam eventually going to the West), which many readers (myself included) accept as "fact".

See also the statement in the usually reliable Encyclopedia of Arda:

Death; the gift of Ilúvatar to his Younger Children, allowing them to go beyond the confines of the World. After death, Mortal Men were gathered in the Halls of Mandos, and then departed from the World for a destination unknown even to the Valar. Whereas all other beings in Arda, including the Valar themselves, were bound to the World and its fate, the Gift freed Men from this destiny, allowing them to shape their own lives as they wished.

Hope this helps. Perhaps someone has additional quotes on this?

[bilbo_baggins]

I can't find it because my books are all packed up (I'm moving) and I can't get to my Silmarillion, but there is a section where Tulkas the Vala wants to go and contend with Melkor. The other Valar retain him and afterwards they chain Melkor and try him on the hill. Would Tulkas have gone just to be a gently rough police officer and bring Melkor back? I think that Tulkas had the power to outright kill Melkor or at least send him beyond their present realm of existence. Perhaps we are agreeing indirectly. Is not exiling Melkor to the Void in a sense like killing him? Sometimes when the elves die, they go to the halls of Mandos, and the men eventually go to Eru, so why not have the Valar and Maiar that are killed just whisp away to nothingness, like the case of Melkor, Saruman, and Sauron?

Again, I'm just rambling without a book, so feel free to laugh if I'm totally wrong.

[Fingolfin II]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

The other Valar retain him and afterwards they chain Melkor and try him on the hill. Would Tulkas have gone just to be a gently rough police officer and bring Melkor back? I think that Tulkas had the power to outright kill Melkor or at least send him beyond their present realm of existence.

Tulkas certainly did beat Melkor in the wrestle with him and thus, allowed him to be taken back as a prisoner to Valinor, yet I still maintain my assertion that Tulkas, nor any of the Valar, could kill Melkor outright. In the wrestling match you just alluded to, Tulkas beat Morgoth in a physical sense, yet I still have doubts as to whether he can actually kill him.

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

Is not exiling Melkor to the Void in a sense like killing him?

I don't think so- Melkor was simply confined to the Void, unable to return within the circles of Arda. Certainly his own inherent power was reduced by the war and the power that he put into his armies (Morgoth's Ring), yet he himself was not dead. You don't kill a spider just by putting it into an empty rubbish bin (unfortunately).

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

Sometimes when the elves die, they go to the halls of Mandos, and the men eventually go to Eru, so why not have the Valar and Maiar that are killed just whisp away to nothingness, like the case of Melkor, Saruman, and Sauron?

As I stated above, Melkor did not whisp away into 'nothingness', nor did Sauron. Certainly Saruman's spirit was dissipated after his body was killed by Grima; yet, I believe that the cold air that did this was summoned by, or on the command of, Eru himself. Sauron was not killed at the end of the War of the Ring- rather he was so crippled by the destruction of the Ring that he was not able to take shape again and was reduced to a mere spirit of malice. Not killed though. I don't have the books on me at the moment, either, but in The Silmarillion, before the story starts, it tells of how Morgoth was cast into the Void and of how Sauron 'took the same ruinous path into the Void' (or something like that). However, I fear that I digress from my main point and that is that Morgoth and Sauron were both not 'killed'; the former is merely unable to enter the Circles of the World again (as well as losing a lot of his power), while Sauron was weakened to an impotent spirit of malice.

bilbo, I hope I haven't taken away from any of your points and that you can put up with a lack of canonical evidence. Perhaps I've missed your point and we are agreeing indirectly; please feel free to tell me so .

[bilbo_baggins]

To be short and simple, is not sending Melkor beyond the Circles of Arda (into the Void) like killing him? Sending him is like "killing him." When the elves are "killed" they go to the Halls of Mandos, so when the Vala Melkor was "killed" they sent him beyond, into the Void. A similar thing, albeit not the same, happened to Sauron. I believe that the spirit of Saruman was taken to the Void as well, because Melkor deserved just as much punishment as Saruman, and if Eru let something like exile happen to Melkor, then the same coul happen to Saruman.

But I digress. Short and simple it is...

[obloquy]

Late writings show that Melkor was indeed executed as a mortal. He had become thoroughly incarnate and was thus "killable" even though his impotent spirit would persist infinitely.