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Old 10-31-2012, 07:11 AM   #1
Aeglos
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Weapons in Vallinor?

Hi im new to this forums and i have loved the tolkien legendarium since i was a little kid. So dont be rude if i ask dumb questions. But one thing i find strange is. At the kinslaying of elves. How did the noldor have weapons. What use did they have in vallinor? And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:30 AM   #2
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Hi im new to this forums and i have loved the tolkien legendarium since i was a little kid. So dont be rude if i ask dumb questions. But one thing i find strange is. At the kinslaying of elves. How did the noldor have weapons. What use did they have in vallinor? And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?
Well the ingredient 'X' here is Morgoth. The Valar couldn't really understand how Morgoth could be irredeemably evil, and believing him reformed, he was left to spread lies and discord.

The Silmarills then come into the equation and become a thing 'too' precious to the elves, and which Morgoth can use as leverage to ramp up suspicion and disharmony.

As soon as the concept of jealous love for 'things' entered into the hearts of Feanor and co. it was a short 'hop' of reasoning to begin making a means to defend their treasure.

As for the Valar 'seeing' this, they aren't Gods, and they aren't omniscient or omnipresent. There is only one God in the Tolkien universe; and whilst Manwe sees much, he does not see all. For example Ungoliant's shroud of unlight was impenetrable to his eyes. Eru would have had no trouble with that, or indeed anything at all.

Thus, the trusting Valar, seeing only light and beauty in Valinor, saw no reason to think anything was amiss. All the work of weapons making was done in total secrecy, lest 'thieves' of the Silmarils become aware and act.

Once Feanor had unsheathed his sword to drive off his half brothers from counselling wisdom to their father Finwe, so the discord and arms race amongst the Noldor was set in motion.

As for the kinslaying, well again it comes down to the jealous love of things, and Feanor's arrogant idiocy (as well as his father's foolishly unswerving loyalty.) Once the elves had it in their minds to return to Middle Earth and take up rule there, those weapons developed for the protection of things, were turned to new hideous purposes (As well as weapons of hunting that everyone had good reason to have: The elves and the Valar weren't vegetarians :P)

The Valar do not prescribe against free-will. The elves were free to come, free to go. Free to make weapons, free to act as they would. They were counselled otherwise, but the Valar do not want mastery as per Morgoth. Had they known of Morgoth's lies earlier, and the rash actions of a younger Feanor, then I'm certain intervention with good counsel and the punishment of Morgoth might have changed how things turned out.

However when it all started to go to the bad, the Elves were free to find their own bad fortune. Whilst the curse of Mandos is grim, it's important to note that the Elves themselves bring the curse down on themselves. Thingol makes himself part of it later on, simply by falling under the spell of greed for the Silmarills.

In short, the Valar were decieved, the Eldar learned jealousy and a need to protect their treasure, Morgoth's lies succeeded, and the Valar would not stop the free will of any of the children of Illuvatar, no matter how catastrophic.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:31 AM   #3
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Welcome, Aeglos!

It is said in the Silmarillion that Fëanor was taught the art of metal work by his father-in-law Mahtan, who had in turned learned from Aulë.

It was Melkor though, who suggested to Fëanor that he should make weapons, fomenting discord between Fëanor and his half-brother Fingolfin. Fëanor made a forge for fashioning weapons, and not even Melkor knew about that. It therefore seems reasonable that the Valar themselves did not know about the weapon-making until it had already been done.

As to why the Valar did not actively seize all weapons, perhaps they knew it would have been pointless: the Noldor had the means to make more if they chose.

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:04 AM   #4
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There's another interesting aspect too, concerning the possibility of weapons on the Great March...


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'Now the Quendi had possessed weapons in Middle-earth, but not of their own devising. They had been made by Aule and sent as gifts by the hand of Orome, when it became known to the Valar that the Quendi were beset by prowling evils that had discovered the places of their dwelling beside Cuivienen; and more were sent later for the defence of the Eldar upon the Great March to the shores of the Sea. But all these were long unused, and lay in hoard as memorials of old days half-forgotten; and since the chaining of Melkor the armouries of the Valar also had been shut.'

Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II), Later Ch. 6, S52a, pp. 276-27
Christopher Tolkien chose not to incorporate this LQII idea into the 1977 Silmarillion of course.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:11 AM   #5
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I will also point out that the the Elves actaully would have use for weapons in Valinor, for hunting. It is implied that, unlike the Elves themselves, the animals of Valinor are not immortal, and I think it is said outright that hunting is still a common pastime for elves in the blessed lands. For example, Tuor's sword has an ivory shealth, and it is likey the sheath and sword were made for him while in Valnior. I might see how there would be a shortage of swords in Valinor amongst elves who were not preparing to leave for some reason (a sword is not exactly a hunting weapon), but things like bows and arrows and spears and such would be common day to day items, always available.
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:12 PM   #6
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I will also point out that the the Elves actaully would have use for weapons in Valinor, for hunting. It is implied that, unlike the Elves themselves, the animals of Valinor are not immortal, and I think it is said outright that hunting is still a common pastime for elves in the blessed lands. For example, Tuor's sword has an ivory shealth, and it is likey the sheath and sword were made for him while in Valnior. I might see how there would be a shortage of swords in Valinor amongst elves who were not preparing to leave for some reason (a sword is not exactly a hunting weapon), but things like bows and arrows and spears and such would be common day to day items, always available.
To that point, it was also said that the Teleri of Alqualondë had bows with which they fought Fëanor's host. One might question what peaceful need for bows there might be for a people who lived on the coast and presumably got their food from the sea.
Yet, Melkor apparently had no hand in their armament. Perhaps they had heard rumors of the Noldor's smithying, and decided to get weapons of their own in imitation, knowing nothing of the reasons for the Noldors' arming themselves.
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:33 PM   #7
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Don't forget that many innocently designed domestic implements can be a weapon at need. In the UK there are laws about carrying offensive weapons and so you can get into a lot of trouble if you carry an obvious weapon without reason... but when I was young and first driving and before I had a mobile phone I happened to keep the wheel brace under the passenger seat rather than in the boot of the car and savvy women know that a bunch of keys or some coins and a lighter make a good knuckleduster and perfume sprayed in the eyes can be pretty effective - all items that it is perfectly reasonable for a lady to have about her person.

Few sailors will step aboard without a knife since you may have to cut rope to save a life. They built boats.. they would have lots of nasty stuff..
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:38 PM   #8
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To that point, it was also said that the Teleri of Alqualondë had bows with which they fought Fëanor's host. One might question what peaceful need for bows there might be for a people who lived on the coast and presumably got their food from the sea.
Yet, Melkor apparently had no hand in their armament. Perhaps they had heard rumors of the Noldor's smithying, and decided to get weapons of their own in imitation, knowing nothing of the reasons for the Noldors' arming themselves.
Well, there is such a thing as bowfishing. But more to the point the fact that just beacusev the Teleri lived by the sea does not mean they didn't hunt land game when it was available. Living by the sea does not mean that it forms your exculusive source of food. And how about if they wanted sea birds for supper (people do eat many sorts of sea birds, besides the obvios geese and ducks) They almost certainly had spears too, for killing things like very big fish and seals, or at least harpoons (and what essentially is a harpoon but a spear with (possibly) something on the end to make it float or attach it to your arm or the ? while Tolkein didn't say it, I've always sort of assumed that, in a world where things like Olipaunts were wandering around (Valinor is supposed to have every animal in ME and then some) the elves probably still made use of the alatal (spear thrower) so they probably would have had those available too.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:57 AM   #9
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Well, there is such a thing as bowfishing. But more to the point the fact that just beacusev the Teleri lived by the sea does not mean they didn't hunt land game when it was available. Living by the sea does not mean that it forms your exculusive source of food. And how about if they wanted sea birds for supper (people do eat many sorts of sea birds, besides the obvios geese and ducks) They almost certainly had spears too, for killing things like very big fish and seals, or at least harpoons (and what essentially is a harpoon but a spear with (possibly) something on the end to make it float or attach it to your arm or the ? while Tolkein didn't say it, I've always sort of assumed that, in a world where things like Olipaunts were wandering around (Valinor is supposed to have every animal in ME and then some) the elves probably still made use of the alatal (spear thrower) so they probably would have had those available too.
The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:37 AM   #10
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The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.
Let's not forget that the Teleri lived for a long time in Beleriand after the Vanyar and Noldor had left, presumably sustaining themselves through hunting.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:37 AM   #11
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The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.
I actually don't see any problem here. Hunting birds would actually be GREAT practice in archery, your basically working at shooting small moving targets. Get good at that (and in a society where part of your diet relyed on those birds, you probably would get pretty good, pretty fast, as a simple matter of survival). Compared to that, a Noldor warrior would actually be a pretty easy target, he's bigger, he's slower and he has one less plane to move around in. The armor might provide some trouble, but armor isn't really all that great and anti arrow work (especially since no qualified archer would be trying to directly shoot through it, he'd be doing the arc thing to add the force of gravity, or aiming for unarmored bits like the eyes (the elves are usually assumed on this forum to be on roughly anglo-saxon armor tech, so we're probably not talking about full plate with totally face covering helmets, so the eyes would be vulnerable.) And a good bowman can bring down something truly massive, remember Bard brought Smaug down with ONE arrow (yes he is shooting through a chink in Smaugs armor, but the arrow still has to get through layers of skin muscle fat possibly a rib etc. Smaug is HUGE by human standards. If they DID need to get through the armor, they probably would have gone to the spears/javelins. A well muscled man who is a good spear thrower would probably have little trouble, he'd be used to bringing down things like seals and deer which , while they don't wear armor are WAAY bigger than a person. And a person with an alatl is supposedly capable of throwing a spear with enough force it could bring down a mammoth (Alatls were used in Europe Neolithically, phasing out when the mammoths and such megafauna went extinct. In Valinor, where Oliphaunts still were present and comparable megafauna are still extant, they probably kept them.)
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:40 PM   #12
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Let's not forget that the Teleri lived for a long time in Beleriand after the Vanyar and Noldor had left, presumably sustaining themselves through hunting.
That exposes a good deal of double-standard, if not outright hypocrisy, of the part of the Green-elves of Ossiriand. Consider their complaints about the arrival of Men in Beleriand to Finrod:

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'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward....these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart, we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'
Silmarillion Of the Coming of Men Into the West

So for the Noldor and Teleri, hunting was tolerated, but Men were reviled for it. Very telling...
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:45 PM   #13
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That exposes a good deal of double-standard, if not outright hypocrisy, of the part of the Green-elves of Ossiriand. Consider their complaints about the arrival of Men in Beleriand to Finrod:

...

So for the Noldor and Teleri, hunting was tolerated, but Men were reviled for it. Very telling...
Not necessarily. Granted, nothing in this quote suggests that the Green-elves did any hunting at all, it would be easy for them to distinguish between the presumably more humane approach of the Noldor and Sindar on the one hand and the "wholesale slaughter" (to exaggerate slightly) of Men on the other--just as it's possible for modern vegetarians to distinguish between pre-Columbus Native American hunting practices and the kind of hunting and animal-raising that Europeans brought to the scene.

None of which is to suggest in any way that the Edain were anywhere as bad as the slaughter wreaked on the Great Plains bison, for example, but the Green-elves were certainly capable of distinguishing between the actions of their estranged kin and that of the Aftercomers. And, in any case, there is ample evidence that the Green-elves were not particularly close with the Noldor or Sindar--"tolerate" seems an appropriate term for their relationship, provided it still has some of the sense of "put up with."
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:21 PM   #14
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The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.
Well, there is the factor that for them the kinslaying was a home game. They fought on the ships. The Teleri have no problem with being on a ship, but for the Noldor it's an awkward and unfamiliar place to fight. Also, seafaring men are used to the swaying (and there is some swaying even in the port), but it would be like an earthquake for the Noldor. I would not be surprised if they felt as unconfortable as Sam Gamgee in a boat.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:50 PM   #15
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Not necessarily. Granted, nothing in this quote suggests that the Green-elves did any hunting at all, it would be easy for them to distinguish between the presumably more humane approach of the Noldor and Sindar on the one hand and the "wholesale slaughter" (to exaggerate slightly) of Men on the other--just as it's possible for modern vegetarians to distinguish between pre-Columbus Native American hunting practices and the kind of hunting and animal-raising that Europeans brought to the scene.
It still seems to me as if the Green-elves just used the hunting as a pretense for their disdain. In the quote, they fail to qualify the hunting actions of the Men as extreme in any way; they just put a general frown upon it.


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Well, there is the factor that for them the kinslaying was a home game. They fought on the ships. The Teleri have no problem with being on a ship, but for the Noldor it's an awkward and unfamiliar place to fight. Also, seafaring men are used to the swaying (and there is some swaying even in the port), but it would be like an earthquake for the Noldor. I would not be surprised if they felt as unconfortable as Sam Gamgee in a boat.
I'm not trying to say the Teleri were necessarily in the wrong for having bows. It seems clear that it was the Noldor's possession of swords that really turned the tide there, and swords they would apparently not have had if they hadn't listened to Melkor speaking through Fëanor. There are indeed benign uses for bows, but for swords as used by the Noldor, only one darker purpose.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:20 PM   #16
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I'm not trying to say the Teleri were necessarily in the wrong for having bows. It seems clear that it was the Noldor's possession of swords that really turned the tide there, and swords they would apparently not have had if they hadn't listened to Melkor speaking through Fëanor. There are indeed benign uses for bows, but for swords as used by the Noldor, only one darker purpose.
I'm not saying you said that. What I meant is that the Teleri didn't need superior or even equal - or even near equal - weapons to compete with the Noldor in battle. The pure advantage of being on a ship makes up for the lack of swords. The Teleri would have faired this way if their best blade was a pocket knife. Plus, half the Noldor didn't know which side is the bad guys, which also reduces their advantage they have from weapons.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:21 PM   #17
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I'm not trying to say the Teleri were necessarily in the wrong for having bows. It seems clear that it was the Noldor's possession of swords that really turned the tide there, and swords they would apparently not have had if they hadn't listened to Melkor speaking through Fëanor. There are indeed benign uses for bows, but for swords as used by the Noldor, only one darker purpose.
It's not like Fëanor and the Noldor were the first to have weapons in Valinor. The Vala Oromë and his Maiar hunting parties were already outfitted with a full complement of weapons, no doubt crafted by Aulë. The Book of Lost Tales refers to Oromë's halls in Valimar as crammed full of weapons, hides and hunting trophies.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:30 PM   #18
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It's not like Fëanor and the Noldor were the first to have weapons in Valinor. The Vala Oromë and his Maiar hunting parties were already outfitted with a full complement of weapons, no doubt crafted by Aulë. The Book of Lost Tales refers to Oromë's halls in Valimar as crammed full of weapons, hides and hunting trophies.
Well, the fact seems to be that the Noldor were the first to make swords, and their impetus for doing so, at least in the Silm, was Melkor. That alone puts an evil cast on the sword possession.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:44 AM   #19
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Sting The Valar's intervention

Aeglos, welcome to the Downs! You started a very interesting thread, and asked a good question:

And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?

My view is that the Valar were content to let the Noldor govern themselves, and only intervened when things got out of hand, which they did in the case of Fëanor, who threatened violence and murder with a weapon he made.

Under Morgoth's influence, as well as making weapons, Fëanor spoke out against the Valar. Fingolfin brought up this matter at a meeting before their father, Finwë, asking what he was going to go about Fëanor, pointing out that he (Finwë) was one of those who originally spoke before the Elves, urging that they go to Valinor, saying that if he was still of the same mind, he had at least two sons (Fingolfin and Finarfin) to support him.

Fëanor turned up armed, accused Fingolfin of usurping his place, and threatened him with his sword. When Fingolfin left, Fëanor followed him, and again threatened him with his sword, this time saying that he might kill him if he usurped his place. 'See, half brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls'. Fingolfin left without saying anything in reply.

I don't think anyone here would be surprised that the Valar then intervened in an incident where the King of the Noldor's eldest son turned up armed at a peaceful meeting, and twice threatened his brother with a sword, the second time implying that he might kill him. Also, Fëanor's language could be seen as particularly insulting, calling the Noldor 'thralls', i.e. slaves, implying that his people were slaves, presumably of the Valar.

Even when it was found out that Melkor's influence was at the back of what happened, the Valar, rightly, said that Fëanor was still responsible for his actions and would be exiled. At least Fëanor didn't give the excuse of 'Melkor made me do it!'

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Old 11-06-2012, 07:32 AM   #20
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....That alone puts an evil cast on the sword possession.
Thus the word sordid.
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:53 AM   #21
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How did the noldor have weapons. What use did they have in vallinor? And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?
Let's start before Valinor. The Elves were given weapons from Aulë to defend themselves on the Great March. While in Valinor there was not much need for weapons in self-defense so they were kept away. However, on a side note, to me this implies that many of the Eldar in Aman knew how to fight and had some skill in wielding weapons of war/slaughter/etc.

Weapons were taken up again in Aman after Melkor spread his lies among the Noldor and mentioned "the power that they gave to them that has them to defend his own" [MR, p. 276] The forges were put to work in the remaking of their old weapons that "were long unused, and lay in hoard as memorials of old days half-forgotten" [p. 277] Not only were weapons wielded but shields and armor, and different clans made certain weapons in secret from others, not revealing their own personal arsenals.

Now later on, in the first slaying in Aman, there is a passage which again implies to me that the Eldar had skills in the craft of fighting as Finwë goes down in battle with Melkor and Fëanor believed ["had he been at Formenos, his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Morgoth had purposed" p. 294] if he were there he could have protected his father implying he was also a trained fighter.

"We heard the sound of great blows struck. Out of the cloud we saw a sudden flame of fire. And then there was one piercing cry.... we came to the house. There we found the king slain at the door. His head was crushed as with a great mace of iron.... he had stood alone, defiant. That is plain; for his sword lay beside him, twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke."
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:33 AM   #22
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As a sort of side issue, the attitude towards weapons in public seems the same as in stereotypical medieval society. You have the 'right to bear arms', etc.
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:10 AM   #23
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As a sort of side issue, the attitude towards weapons in public seems the same as in stereotypical medieval society. You have the 'right to bear arms', etc.
Stereotypical as in representation through movies ect. ?

If so, then yes it seems like it was tolerated.
(But I doubt that there was a "right to bear arms" in most medieval societies)

Mind you that there is a constant war going on in Tolkien's work, stuff like that has a tendency to heighten peoples tolerance of public display of weapons ...
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne View Post
Stereotypical as in representation through movies ect. ?

If so, then yes it seems like it was tolerated.
(But I doubt that there was a "right to bear arms" in most medieval societies)
I'm hardly an expert, but I don't think commoners were often armed in medieval times. Swords were pretty much the mark of a knight or mercenary.

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Mind you that there is a constant war going on in Tolkien's work, stuff like that has a tendency to heighten peoples tolerance of public display of weapons ...
There was no war in Valinor though, and no obvious enemy from which Fëanor should have felt the need to arm himself against. The lies of Melkor induced Fëanor to see enemies even when they weren't there.
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:26 AM   #25
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There was no war in Valinor though, and no obvious enemy from which Fëanor should have felt the need to arm himself against. The lies of Melkor induced Fëanor to see enemies even when they weren't there.
Yes and the weapons were forged in secret, and only shields worn openly. Fëanor's confrontation with Fingolfin was especially scandalous, beyond the fact that he openly threatened his own brother, because of the fact that he came in not only bearing his shield, but wearing a helmet and wielding a sword (note that he presumably had no other armour because mail was invented by the Dwarves in Middle-earth).

So while the open wearing of weapons may have been relatively commonplace among Men in the Third Age it seemingly was not normal or actively sanctioned behaviour for the Eldar in Aman.
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Old 09-29-2013, 08:42 AM   #26
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I'm hardly an expert, but I don't think commoners were often armed in medieval times. Swords were pretty much the mark of a knight or mercenary.
Yes that was what I was trying to hint at, that there is a difference between the "stereotypical" representation and how things actually were back then...

My area of history is mostly Early Modern, so I am not clear on all the finer details in medieval times either. However I am fairly certain that it was at this time it became an exclusive privilege for the nobility (In Denmark) to bear arms openly... it was a symbol of status. Also in Danish society it was the whole justification for the privileges of the nobility was that they were also the armed forces, the defenders of the realm... so there was a whole lot of symbolism mixed in as well.

It might have been allowed for common folk to have swords in the early medieval period, but I doubt it would have been a general tendency, as swords cost silly money... A regular person probably wouldn't have been able to afford more than an axe.

Anyways...

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There was no war in Valinor though, and no obvious enemy from which Fëanor should have felt the need to arm himself against. The lies of Melkor induced Fëanor to see enemies even when they weren't there.
Maybe not, but the point is still valid. Since before the first age, elves were fighting a bitter war, A war that even had a spin-off, with Sauron cast as the main villain. Granted sometimes there was peace, or at least not open conflict, but it still lasted thousands of years. So yeah, in a world that doesn't seem to have an exclusive warrior class, that would probably result in armed people being a relatively common sight.
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:28 PM   #27
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It still seems to me as if the Green-elves just used the hunting as a pretense for their disdain. In the quote, they fail to qualify the hunting actions of the Men as extreme in any way; they just put a general frown upon it.
I don't think the main issue here is that the newcomers hunted and cut down trees in general but rather that they did it in Ossirand, the land of the Green Elves. They were unwanted intruders and thus unwelcome. Naturally it would add fuel to the fire if the Edain also were less in harmony with nature than the Green Elves.
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Old 09-29-2013, 03:12 PM   #28
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Maybe not, but the point is still valid. Since before the first age, elves were fighting a bitter war, A war that even had a spin-off, with Sauron cast as the main villain. Granted sometimes there was peace, or at least not open conflict, but it still lasted thousands of years. So yeah, in a world that doesn't seem to have an exclusive warrior class, that would probably result in armed people being a relatively common sight.
What war were the Elves fighting? The war against Morgoth was fought by the Valar and Maiar, not the Elves. And the main villain was Morgoth, not Sauron. And unless you count the war between Morgoth and the Valar as beginning with the destuction of the two lamps, I am unaware of any source that says the war between Morgoth and the Valar lasted “thousands of years”.

According to “The Annals of Aman” in Morgoth’s Ring the final war between Morgoth and the Valar began in the year 1090 and ended with Morgoth’s imprisonment in the year 1100. Thus according to this account the war lasted only ten Valian years, about a hundred years of the Sun, not even close to one thousand years.

Or are you thinking of the later war which the Noldor and Sindar fought against Morgoth? That war was fought after the period that this thread is discussing.

I don’t see that your point is valid.
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:47 PM   #29
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What war were the Elves fighting? The war against Morgoth was fought by the Valar and Maiar, not the Elves. And the main villain was Morgoth, not Sauron. And unless you count the war between Morgoth and the Valar as beginning with the destuction of the two lamps, I am unaware of any source that says the war between Morgoth and the Valar lasted “thousands of years”.

According to “The Annals of Aman” in Morgoth’s Ring the final war between Morgoth and the Valar began in the year 1090 and ended with Morgoth’s imprisonment in the year 1100. Thus according to this account the war lasted only ten Valian years, about a hundred years of the Sun, not even close to one thousand years.

Or are you thinking of the later war which the Noldor and Sindar fought against Morgoth? That war was fought after the period that this thread is discussing.

I don’t see that your point is valid.
Yes, yes, you are right of course.

Sorry, I lost focus there. I could have sworn that Rhod talked about attitudes to weapon in M-E in general. Expanding the discussion from just Valinor to a more overarching level. . . but going back I can see that this was not the case.

This happens to me every now and then: Though normally I don't misunderstand/misread the posts, rather I tend too misremember what people have said, and then go slightly off-topic.

My apologies.
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