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Old 06-05-2007, 04:15 AM   #41
The 1,000 Reader
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As I mentioned earlier, Tolkien's works and fanfiction should never mix. The only person who has the right to write about Middle-Earth is Professor Tolkien, and he is dead to boot. As Davem said, Middle-Earth went with Tolkien. While a mythology of sorts, Tolkien's works are ultimately a work of fantasy and Tolkien's alone. On a lesser note, the few things I have seen that are attempted offshoots are written terribly. Tolkien's works are Tolkien's works, and were meant to be Tolkien's works, are Tolkien's works, and hopefully will remain Tolkien's works.

As for being inspired by Middle-Earth, you can, yet leave Middle-Earth be. Just acknowledge the fact that the story is finished and the gaps are simply things of no importance. Seriously, it's finished. Done.
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Old 06-05-2007, 04:31 AM   #42
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Spot on. There's nowt wrong with having some fun and playing RPGs and writing fan-fic etc (I've done it - am I gonna slate myself eh?), and if you write parody/satire you might see that in print because that is something new and different, but taking yourself too seriously and believing you can actually meet or even challenge the Authority of Tolkien (or CT) in serious writing to add to the canon is a little...precious?
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Old 06-05-2007, 04:34 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I was referring to the untold, or unfinished stories - like the fall of Gondolin & the War of Wrath, or Beren & Luthien.
My bad, I misread "invented" as "intended"; talk about writting after midnight. I would say the jury may still be out on that one, seeing that some say that a good/most part of Tolkien's writtings is not published yet.
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Originally Posted by davem
We can in this case, as the fiction, in a real sense, is the man.
I would call this as true as saying that this tour did take place . Author and work are separable, esspecially if one gets to know the letters and other materials on Tolkien's life and personality, and if one takes into consideration that his work was continuously evolving.

As far as "keeping it real", I see no problem; as long as Tolkien's name does not appear as author of a new book, what's the biggie? It's all down to personal choice what standing we give to a book; some people exclude even works of Tolkien from canon, and frankly, as long as we give to Ceasar what is unto Ceasar, in public discussions [that is, we give relevant information about source, as it is good practice on Tolkien discussions], then anything goes. Not to mention that the Wheel of Time books are publicised in Romania as "tales of the fourth age, completing Tolkien's work".
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Old 06-05-2007, 05:25 AM   #44
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Just to go back to Feanorsdoom's point about the 'Silmarils being found one day'. I take it this is referring to the potential for some other writer to tell that story.

Yes, someone could indeed write that story - in fact I would be very surprised if someone hadn't already done so - there's so much fanfic around I suspect that every possible idea has been explored & written up by somebody.

However, what seems to be being suggested is an 'officially' sanctioned work by another author, published under the auspices pf the Tolkien Estate & that would stand on equal terms with LotR & TH, or at least with The '77 Sil & CoH. Now that I simply cannot see ever being accepted by most fans or students of Tolkien. It would be no more than published fanfic & be held in no higher authority than any other such work.

There can be (& probably will be shen copyright runs out - though I note that recent editions of Tolkien's work are copyright The Tolkien Trust, not JRR Tolkien) new M-e stories. But there will never be another writer who can say with perfect truth (as Tolkien did) that 'the Silmarils are in my heart'. The absolute best you could hope for would be a good fantasy novel (or more probably fantasy series). But it wouldn't be Tolkien. It would be a second hand vision. Even the style would either have to be fake Tolkien or the writer's own - in which case it would feel false.

To me this desire is more like the desire of someone who sees the Mona Lisa & becomes fascinated with the landscape background & wants another artist to paint other pictures showing more of the landscape to left & right. Apart from the fact that all you would end up with is a couple of landscape paintings with a vague connection to the original painting, the person wanting those paintings would have completely missed the point of the original....

Let's imagine a writer authorised to write a continuation - the first thing he or she is going to do is hit the solid brick wall of 'Myths Transformed' - does he or she ignore or incorporate those changes? Of course, that's just the first & most obvious example. The Legendarium is not a coherent, self consistent tale with a few gaps to fill, which any half decent writer can come along & fill in. It was a constantly evolving work, changing over Tolkien's long life, with far more internal conflicts & inconsistencies than many fans are willing to admit.

Sorry, you can analyse the writings, you can analyse the writer, but what you can't do is just write 'gap fillers' or continuations - anyone who thinks you can simply doesn't understand what Tolkien produced & the nature of teh materials he left.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:01 PM   #45
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Davem, you have come closest to the truth in saying that no one could see M-e as JRRT did, and the fact that it was never a finished model to work from cements that; but 'filling in the gaps' or continuing the overall story in some sense are things that are being done, and will continue to be done, despite what you may wish. You say no one can internalize Tolkien's world like he did, and that's true, but it was never complete or adequately idealized in him, either. If you mean to say that no one could be as masterful as him without necessarily wanting to write outside of M-e, presumably for reasons of pride if not that genius can only be a purely individual nature, you may also be right, but I doubt it. Le Mort d'Arthur wasn't the first story about King Arthur, and no doubt won't be the last.

I'm not saying that the Tolkien family should bow to fan pressure and sanction a campaign of novel knockoffs like in the Star Trek universe(s) or AD&D, but fanfic is being written, and will be for the forseeable future. Somewhere in there might be writers of good quality, even great. To say that none can ever match the skills, vision, or dedication of JRRT himself is close to calling Tolkien divinely inspired and his works scripture. Before you key up another "never", I'd like to ask just how far we should go to keep people from publishing a new, non-Tolkien, Middle-earth novel. Should we just sue them for copyright infringement, or should we burn them for blasphemy?

JRRT was not a prophet, an apostle, or a messiah, and The Silmarillion is not the new, improved Bible. There will be authors his equal, and not all will share your idea that Middle-earth is sacrosanct to JRRT alone. Yes, his M-e is lost to us, except for the works he left behind; but if you are saying that no one's vision of M-e could ever be as beautiful, then I think you should question yourself as to how seriously you should be taking this line of thought. This isn't a cult; at least, I hope it's not becoming one.

Love for Tolkien's works can be expressed in many ways. Most of us can only read them, but many can't leave it at that. Surely, the human race isn't so impoverished that it can't come up with someone who both loves Tolkien's works and has the ability to add to them something worthwhile? Shouldn't we at least aknowledge the possibility, or should M-e be protected from outside ideas until it becomes a cult, then a new religion? That way leads to madness.
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Old 06-05-2007, 11:59 PM   #46
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Sorry, but I haven't argued that Tolkien's work should be treated like some kind of religious text. All I've argued from the start is that what we've got is what there is, & if anyone else adds to it what they add will be fake.

What you don't get is that Middle-earth is not a real place, with an objective existence that others can investigate & discover new things about. Middle-earth is what JRR Tolkien wrote. There isn't anymore, & won't be anymore because he's dead. There is lots of fanfic out there (in a mad moment I knocked some off myself & its there over on the Downs fanfic section if you want to read it. I enjoyed writing it, & some who read it said they liked it. But its not, & could never be, part of the Canon - even if it were a thousand times better than it is.

You appear to want other writers to be able to publish their own tales about Middle-earth & have them treated as canon - on equal (or higher) terms than Tolkien's own work. I'm saying this is a fundamental misunderstanding of Tolkien's work & a failure on your part to realise that the man is the work & the work is the man.

Yes, anyone can write stories about Elves & Balrogs which are set in Arda. They may be good stories. They may be entertaining, moving, even profound. What they won't be is part of Tolkien's Legendarium.

Look, let's get down to brass tacks. Which writer(s) are you talking about? This whole 'One day there may come a writer of genius who can take up his pen & tell us great tales of Middle-earth.' stuff is getting us no-where. One day I may be kidnapped by aliens. One day Tolkien may be cloned from DNA left on the stem of his favourite pipe. One day a great many things may happen, but if that's all your argument hangs on I think its a bit pointless to go on with.
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:01 AM   #47
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As a musician, I would like to add a footnote to this discussion that is applicable to writing and other arts as well as to music. Beginning composers usually try out different styles, often copying other composers, as part of the process of developing their own style. That's part of learning the craft, the 90% perspiration that brings the 10% inspiration onto paper and eventually, to the concert halls/exhibitions/printing presses. The better the predecessor, the better one learns the craft, so it's vital to choose the best. From there, upon having internalized the basic techniques, one can move on to stretching them, developing them, filling them with new contents in new styles - and perhaps even destroying them completely to make way for individual creativity.

What better writer could one choose to emulate than Tolkien?! (Granted, there are other excellent choices in other areas of writing out there, but those are not our topic here.) In "Meditations on Middle-Earth" (which sounds like cheesy devotionals, but is a compilation of authors' experiences with Tolkien's influence), a number of authors who have gone on to create their own worlds tell how they started out by emulating Tolkien.

I would in no way advocate selling others' products as canonical Tolkien, but fan fiction and RPGs can not only prepare budding authors for their own careers, the stories can give great pleasure to those who read them - if well-written, of course.
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Old 06-06-2007, 02:21 AM   #48
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The thing with fan-fic is that there is plenty of great stuff out there, and the Estate allow it to be written and published online or privately, just it must never have Tolkien's identity attached to it. I don't see what's wrong with leaving it at that. Some of the fan fic is so good it garners a sizeable audience of its own - fair enough! The vital thing is that it is kept entirely separate from the canon.

We must remember that Tolkien's stories are very different from stories of Arthur or Robin Hood. Those are ancient stories based on reality, based on history - nobody in particular created them, they were created collectively we might say as they are genuine myths and legends. As such they are nobody's and everybody's creations and we are free to play with them and create profit-making Art based on them.

No matter how hard you screw up your eyes and wish upon the Tooth Fairy, Tolkien's work is not Myth; it is Art, it is Fiction. Yes, it should and must be protected from dilution by other writers as to allow anything else would dilute and ruin Tolkien's immense hard work. As I say, the Estate are kind enough not to prevent fan-fic (some writers do, so think yourself lucky everyone!) in its current form, why can't we leave it be?
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Old 06-06-2007, 05:18 AM   #49
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The other problem with this approach is simply that (as I stated earlier) there is no final, coherent form to the Legendarium. There are conflicting versions of teh tales written over a period of six decades. Which version of the Tale of Gondolin, for instance, do you take as a basis for an 'official' retelling? The 1917 BoLT version (which is the only complete version) or the QS version, or do you take up the 1951 version as published in UT? Or do you just cobble together a version from the bits?

There isn't a coherent Legendarium for someone to take up. 'Middle-earth' is not, as I keep repeating, an objectively existing place, but a series of variant versions of tales composed over a long life by a man. Its not what some people insist on seeing it as. You can't, in all honesty, pretend that its something it isn't. No writer can take up the reigns & write a new story that would be accepted by either the Estate or fans as 'official', because however careful & competent the writer was he or she would inevitably contradict something Tolkien himself wrote, woud have to reject some of Tolkien's ideas - in effect 'finish off' Tolkien's painiting by painting over huge swathes of the original work. You'd lose the original work simply in order to get the canvas covered up.

Writing fanfic is one thing. Writing a new story that would be accepted as canonical is another. The first is open to anyone. The latter is rendered impossible by the very nature of the raw materials Tolkien left.
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:23 AM   #50
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Tolkien Does the compass have a true north?

While davendë , as always, makes a very persuasive argument, I think it might be interesting to step back for a bit and ask why there is this sense that other Middle-earth stories could be written.

Obviously, there are holders of copyright who have sold the right or have hired other writers to pen stories of their universe. Top names here are Gene Roddenberry of Star Trek fame and George Lucas of Star Wars fame. Interestingly, both of these universes became known to fans first visually through the drama of film or television, rather than in written format. Both those media employ stables of writers; screenplays and TV scripts are cobbled out of a group effort. Royalties accrue to the original creator (or his estate, in the case of Roddenberry), but no one would ever say that others cannot participate in the concept. Who can is controlled by the business enterprise.

Now, Tolkien didn't come to us this way initially. He came in book form, and his books are substantively different from the early writings of the Star Trek and Star Wars universes. But two things have happened to Tolkien since his initial publication: Peter Jackson's film and Christopher Tolkien's productions.

The presence of the films, with their legal right to use the name Tolkien, makes it difficult for many people to distinguish between Tolkien and these Hollywood fantasists--rightly or wrongly. People are going to ask, why not with T as with R and L? The fine points of arguments about canon make little sense given that the practice is so widespread. (Note, I'm not agreeing with this; simply pointing out that many people will want to know why this is an apples and oranges argument when what they expect is the ambrosia of mixed fruit.)

The role of Tolkien's literary executor has substantially muddied this situation. What are the specific instructions Tolkien left for CT? True, literary executors do generally have the right to bring to the public eye postumous works of writers. Yet how many literary executors have done what CT has done--pulled together books from separate pieces of writing. The guiding principle here has, I think, been CT's understanding of the Legendarium and his desire to bring narrative continuity to the fragments which his father left. The son clearly had "access" to his father's understanding of Middle-earth and a sincere and profound imaginative grasp of it and of many of the works which went into his father's cauldron of stories. Clearly, no one will ever be in the same position as CT, who was offerred drafts of LotR for commentary while the book was being written and who was the first audience for TH. Yet the very presence of Christopher Tolkien's work, compounded with the progessive and framentary nature of JRR Tolkien's writing habits, provides a context which creates this sense that a hard and fast canon does not close off the possibility of other stories.

There is a world of difference between CT the scholar and the writers of the ST and SW universes. Yet hasn't CT invited, even inflamed, the desire, whetted by these other situations, for other Middle earth stories? Once JRRT opened up his imagination to CT, a subtle knife cut into the canonicity issue and the dust spills over.
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:39 AM   #51
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Is it possible that there can be some acceptable world in between those of THE CANON as written directly by Tolkien himself and the fan fiction area?

Yes, there will always be THE CANON because that is what it is. Like Robert DeNiro said in THE DEERHUNTER... "this is this". But given the reality of the present economics and publishing pressures, is it not inevitable that someday, someway, somehow, the Estate may decide that the best way to fight complete abdication of the copyright is to sanction a new hand selected writer to write Middle-earth tales? The literary estates of many other authors had to face that problem as copyright faced expiration - J. M. Barrie and PAN comes to mind of late - the Margaret Mitchell estate sanctioned a sequel to GONE WITH THE WIND, the James Bond books, just to name a few.

Perhaps we can find an area that is not considered THE CANON but is considerable more authoritative than fan fiction.
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Old 06-06-2007, 08:27 AM   #52
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There are never going to be economic pressures laid upon the Estate by Harper Collins as the Estate merely make use of the services owned by the publishing house, and the Estate are not beholden to them. Nor is the Estate in any way short of cash. Or ever likely to be!

And the difference between CT and anyone else is that he is an editor, there to sift through the fragments and put them together with maybe a note or two along the way. He only issues what his father had intended to do more with had he had more time in this world.

Books based on films may be one thing - but to have them based on Tolkien's work smacks of one thing only - dumbing down in the name of profit. Who knows, maybe one day a Literary Executor will come along with a burning desire to build himself a Tolkfork in the Oxfordshire countryside and build up a collection of Ferraris. Until then, why should the Estate pander to the wishes of the film fans, when they've already had not only the films but already have some perfectly good books to read - though to be nasty, maybe they are a bit too difficult for them?

Anything outside of the canon simply is not authoritative, never has been, never will be. Which is why matters of canon regarding the texts we already have are still so hotly debated.
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:20 AM   #53
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What will happen when the copyrights begin to expire?
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Old 06-06-2007, 11:26 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bb
There is a world of difference between CT the scholar and the writers of the ST and SW universes. Yet hasn't CT invited, even inflamed, the desire, whetted by these other situations, for other Middle earth stories? Once JRRT opened up his imagination to CT, a subtle knife cut into the canonicity issue and the dust spills over.
I don't know. CT produced the '77 Sil because his father had been promising to publish the Silmarillion for years, & had always wanted to see it in print. CT's 'contribution' was mainly the final 3 chapters, which Tolkien had not brought into a sufficiently complete state (probably the understatement of the century). For the rest CT has basically published what his father left in pretty much the state he left it.

CoH is a case in point. That is 99.99% Tolkien pere, & CT's contribution has been in the main to provide linking sentences:

Quote:
In the result, while I have had to introduce bridging passages here and there in the piecing together of different drafts, there is no element of extraneous 'invention' of any kind, however slight, in the longer text here presented. The text is nonetheless artificial, as it could not be otherwise: the more especially since this great body of manuscript represents a continual evolution in the actual story. Drafts that are essential to the formation of an uninterrupted narrative may in fact belong to an earlier stage. Thus, to give an example from an earlier point, a primary text for the story of the coming of Túrin's band to the hill of Amon Rűdh, the dwelling place that they found upon it and their life there, and the ephemeral success of the land of Dor-Cúarthol, was written before there was any suggestion of the Petty-dwarves; and indeed a fully-developed description of Mîm's house beneath the summit appears before Mîm himself.
In the remainder of the story, from Túrin's return to Dor-lómin, to which my father gave a finished form, there are naturally very few differences from the text in Unfinished Tales. But there are two matters of detail in the account of the attack on Glaurung at Cabed-en-Aras where I have emended the original words and which should be explained. (CoH Composition of the Text)
If any of the other tales were in such a virtually complete state, I'd be all for them being published. They aren't - nowhere near.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White
Is it possible that there can be some acceptable world in between those of THE CANON as written directly by Tolkien himself and the fan fiction area?
Perhaps we can find an area that is not considered THE CANON but is considerable more authoritative than fan fiction.
No, there's Tolkien's creation. Anything else is fanfic (whatever you choose to call it). Look, there is little chance of anyone producing authoritative or acceptable versions of the other 'Great Tales' (Fall of Gondolin & Beren & Luthien) for very good reasons - the Gondolin material is too confused & contradictory in nature, style & content for anything better than CT has produced in the '77 Sil to be produced ( I suspect that anyone trying to put together a novel length version of it would find themselves very bogged very quickly) & Beren & Luthien should simply be considered untouchable out of respect for Tolkien. B&E simply meant too much to him, was too personal. The idea that someone would turn it into an adventure story is about as distasteful an idea as I can imagine. This is not to treat the story as 'Holy Writ', merely to show proper respect to Tolkien.

The earlier suggestion that someone could one day write a story about the finding of the Silmarils shows a complete misunderstanding of the symbolism of the Jewels finding their end in Air, Earth & Water, & would be as silly as the repeated death/resurrection of the bad guys in trashy horror movie sequels.

The other option would be to write novels, or series of novels, set in Middle-earth, with Elves, Dwarves & Hobbits going off to have adventures - which would basically reduce Middle-earth to a standard fantasy world franchise & cheapen Tolkien's creation. And I hope any response to that point can avoid the 'Well, one day a genius may come along...' argument.

Quote:
What will happen when the copyrights begin to expire?
I'm sure the vultures will gather & wring every penny out of Tolkien's genius they can.

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Old 06-06-2007, 12:16 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I'm sure the vultures will gather & wring every penny out of Tolkien's genius they can.
This of course would be one of the signs of the Apocalypse.

More seriously, people who wish to write fan fiction do so now. Good for them. I gather they do so for their own amusement, not to publish or be considered authoratative. In such cases the blessing of the Estate is irrelevant.
As for the Estate annointing someone to create a Non Canon body of work this sounds like the kind of thing Hollywood movie moguls engage in, trying to capitalise on a brilliant original by churning out sequels of questionable quality. And I think the question of quality has to be a real concern. As observed earlier, it's overly optimistic IMO to think that the Estate or Fate is going to find "some genius" who is willing to spend his/her time diligently channeling the dead.
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:01 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen
This of course would be one of the signs of the Apocalypse.
I think some of those horsemen are already riding pretty hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I don't know. CT produced the '77 Sil because his father had been promising to publish the Silmarillion for years, & had always wanted to see it in print. CT's 'contribution' was mainly the final 3 chapters, which Tolkien had not brought into a sufficiently complete state (probably the understatement of the century). For the rest CT has basically published what his father left in pretty much the state he left it.
. . .
This is the point over which there is much controversy, much contention. Anyone who has been reading Aiwendil's Chapter by Chapter discussion on The Silm knows that this statement is equally an understatement--although of course I know you, davem have sworn off the chapter by chapter discussions, so likely I'm sure your take would differ from Aiwendil's. STill, you should take a look at what has been posted so far.

CT's role has not been strictly speaking that of an editor who comes on the scene like Athena, fully armed. (I think it was Athena--Roman mythology is getting so hazzy these days.) One could well say that rarely has has a writer been able to create--one might say educate or even perfect--a reader for his own work. CT was first an audience of what was close to if not precisely an oral telling of one of the tales (however much you might discount its canonicity, davem.) (Heavens! There's JRRT muddying up his own Legendarium. ) CT was also a member of The Inklings; his name is included on that hand written list which hands on the wall of the Bird and Baby--and Tolkien even wryly identifies himself as the father of the above named 'Christopher Tolkien.' CT must then have been party to all those wranglings and recitals over manuscripts. He also was what would now be called a beta reader, so intimately was he involved in the writing of LotR, Tolkien Sr. sending off chapters to him while he was waging war in South Africa. Then of course he became literary executor and by his own acknowledgement he regrets some of the creative work he did when producing The Silm.

In fact, I think it fair to say that Tolkien Sr. created not only an ideal reader for his work in his son, but he created an ideal inheritor of the mantle of Middle earth translator.

And none of this had anything to do with vultures or money. It is this situation which is so starkly unique in the literary world which gives breathe to the aspirations of other readers. And Tolkien created those conditions.
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:16 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry

This is the point over which there is much controversy, much contention. Anyone who has been reading Aiwendil's Chapter by Chapter discussion on The Silm knows that this statement is equally an understatement--although of course I know you, davem have sworn off the chapter by chapter discussions, so likely I'm sure your take would differ from Aiwendil's. STill, you should take a look at what has been posted so far.
Probably wasn't clear enough there - by 'for the rest' I meant UT & HoM-e, not 'the rest' of the '77 Sil.

Quote:
his name is included on that hand written list which hands on the wall of the Bird and Baby--and Tolkien even wryly identifies himself as the father of the above named 'Christopher Tolkien.'
Its not genuine - its a photocopy of the Frontispiece from Carpenter's 'The Inklings' (fooled me too, but Lalwende's cynicism proved correct). No connection with the Bird & Baby at all. Apart from that I'd have to agree with your point.

Quote:
It is this situation which is so starkly unique in the literary world which gives breathe to the aspirations of other readers. And Tolkien created those conditions.
Perhaps. I suspect it has a lot to do with the illusion of Secondary Reality Tolkien communicated so well - too many readers think of Middle-earth as a place with its own history, & just don't get that it is artifice - what Tolkien didn't create doesn't exist.
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:38 PM   #58
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I asked this question

Quote:
What will happen when the copyrights begin to expire?
and was provided with this answer:


Quote:
I'm sure the vultures will gather & wring every penny out of Tolkien's genius they can.
Please allow me to ask this again and to say I am looking for something more fact based and less of an editorial comment.

At what point in time does the copyright lapse on any of the Middle-earth based tales?
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Old 06-06-2007, 01:50 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Sauron the White
Please allow me to ask this again and to say I am looking for something more fact based and less of an editorial comment.

At what point in time does the copyright lapse on any of the Middle-earth based tales?

In theory 75 years after Tolkien's death.

However, recent editions of LotR (& other works) are copyright to the Tolkien Trust, not JRRT himself, so I'm not sure how long the copyright in this case will hold for. It will outlast me at least, for which I'm grateful.
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Old 06-06-2007, 02:08 PM   #60
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This is from Wikipedia in the article on copyright law.

Quote:
Copyright subsists for a variety of lengths in different jurisdictions, with different categories of works and the length it subsists for also depends on whether a work is published or unpublished. In most of the world the default length of copyright for many works is generally the life of the author plus either 50 or 70 years.
Can anyone identify the reasons why with Tolkien it would be 75 years as davem provided in his latest post? Also does anyone know what determines if it is 50 years or 70 years? Does this mean that - in some parts of the world - we could be looking at the issue 50 years after the 1973 death date? That would mean 2023 which is 16 years away.

-------------------
more info... The revised British law recognizes 70 years after an authors death. Before the mid 1980's it was only 50 years. Some other countries have shorter periods.

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Old 06-06-2007, 03:24 PM   #61
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Copy right is 70 years from the death of the author - or 70 years from the publication date of posthumously published works. All unpublished works remain in perpetual copyright until published - e.g. any letters you might have - and the intellectual rights over them rests with the estate of whoever wrote the letters. Some works are in perpetual copyright - e.g. Peter Pan. International boundaries must respect the limits of other nations as far as I know - Spain has a limit of 80 years.

However the Tolkien Estate has also registered as Trade Marks a lot of the necessary words you'd have to use in order to write a fan-fic and have it published. They exist as long as those words/phrases are in use. Note that copyright expiry allows you to publish cheap One Quid copies of novels, not to use the intellectual property to make new stories - and the existence of extensive Trade Marks will reinforce that. Put that together with the Trust and you ahve an exceedingly complex situation.

So don't hold yer breath...

...or you'll go blue...

As I say the Estate are exceedingly accommodating by allowing such extensive fan-fic as it is, as they are quite within their rights to prevent us all from using certain words and types of character, no doubt. It's a pleasant situation as it is, why change it? It smacks of people being vultures to me, when they could go off and use such prodigious talents to publish something original in order to make a few bob if it's so important. Fan-fic as it is stands as a touching (in many ways, not all of them 'touching' in a good way ) tribute by fans to their favourite writer.
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Old 06-06-2007, 03:43 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Sauron the White
Can anyone identify the reasons why with Tolkien it would be 75 years as davem provided in his latest post? .
davem was rushing & citing from memory. Just after hitting 'Post' he realised he had given the wrong time period. However, by that time a certain person had grabbed his computer because her own doesn't work & she can't be bothered to get it fixed 'cos she can just borrow his 'for five minutes' (& if he's lucky he might just get if back the same day )

That said, I think we should all try & avoid snidey comments aimed at making other people look ignorant. We don't want tears before bedtime, do we?

Now, back to the topic.......
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Old 06-06-2007, 10:36 PM   #63
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Well, whatever I say seems to be passed off as overly optimistic, and that I'll concede. But simply defining Middle-earth as belonging only to JRRT forever is moot, since he's dead. One can define The Canon in any arbitrary way one chooses; he'll never come back to argue. The important part, as Morwen puts it, is the quality of writing that would be considered authoritative. You can argue through vague passages in JRRT's letters whether he would have accepted new authors taking up his work or not, but don't try to pretend the Legendarium is wholly without precedent and a pure work of his mind alone. That, indeed, shows a profound misunderstanding of the work; not just an idle thought that someone may find a way to complete a certain fate implied for the Silmarils (if they are meant to end in earth, air, and water, then Arda will never be remade? The Silmarils were always meant to be found). There are many more, if disguised, hands in the works of Middle-earth than just JRRT; and he wasn't above selling a direct translation or two of another's work. Beowulf and Sir Gawain were certainly not born in Beleriand.

However, I am not advocating rewrites of "The Fall of Gondolin" or a novelization of Hurin or Beren's stories. These have been done beyond the need for any reworking by me or anyone I know of. Nevertheless, whole Ages and families of Elves and Men await to be given life. Davem says that they do not wait, that all that can ever be said about M-e has been said and that any, any, other voice would be fake. That's his view, but he's not JRRT, nor am I or anyone here. And when CT dies, that will effectively end any sign of explicit permission to handle JRRT's works from the man himself. But I say again, and thousands of works since written in Arda of the full variety of skill will attest, that Middle-earth is not dead and that to assume that JRRT would forever cut off his own work from all others under the heading of "Canon" is no less than considering it sacred. Saying that other works like those about King Arthur and Robin Hood are built around historical figures and so are qualitatively different is wrong, as much of the Silmarillion was built around existent myths and stories and JRRT took great pains to show his influences. Arda wasn't, as Melkor may have you believe, created straight out of the void, and to believe it is would again be placing it in a sacred position never to be touched by mortal hands.

I don't have a handy quote to show that JRRT would have happily accepted a new author to take up his work, but I defy you to show me one saying that he believed his world to belong to himself alone or that all of it that ever will exist is contained within his own writing.
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:05 AM   #64
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The point is most fans, & no students, of JRR Tolkien, will accept works by any other author as having any relevance, or even much relation, to Tolkien's Legendarium. You could dress such works up how you wanted, stampt the JRRT monogram on the cover, & even include a talking hologram picture of CT saying 'This is far, far better than anything my father wrote about Middle-earth' & still most of us would not consider them to have anything more to do with Tolkien's Middle-earth than one of the DragonLance Chronicles, or volume 9,856 of The Wheel of Time.

As I said earlier, what you would end up with is M-e turned into a franchise like the Star Wars universe. The effect would be to cheapen & trivialise Tolkien's work.

Personally, I have a deep loathing of what is currently churned out under the lable 'Fantasy' & there are no more than half a dozen writers in that genre whose work I can be bothered with. I don't want Robert Jordan or Margaret Weiss churning out 'Extruded Fantasy Product' full of 'cute' Hobbits & ethereal Elves.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:29 AM   #65
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"Authoritative" - isn't the clue in the word itself? It includes the Author - no mention of Robert Jordan, Alex Lewis or anyone else.

Author...itative - whatever 'itative' means, but there you go. Authoritative means the Author.

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Old 06-07-2007, 09:12 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom
The important part, as Morwen puts it, is the quality of writing that would be considered authoritative.
That's not what I said. You're fusing two different points.
(a) I expressed a view that fanfic writers do not mean for their works to be seen as authoritative. This has nothing to do with the quality of their writing.

(b)
Quote:
As for the Estate annointing someone to create a Non Canon body of work this sounds like the kind of thing Hollywood movie moguls engage in, trying to capitalise on a brilliant original by churning out sequels of questionable quality. And I think the question of quality has to be a real concern. (emphasis added)
I specifically raise a question about the quality of a Non Canon body of work, work that isn't part of the canon and therefore not authoritative.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:30 AM   #67
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davem..... I was really not trying to be snide or smart when I asked that .... I thought that perhaps you knew of some special circumstances that would give the copyright 75 years. I do thank you for your intial information.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:42 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
The point is most fans, & no students, of JRR Tolkien, will accept works by any other author as having any relevance, or even much relation, to Tolkien's Legendarium. You could dress such works up how you wanted, stampt the JRRT monogram on the cover, & even include a talking hologram picture of CT saying 'This is far, far better than anything my father wrote about Middle-earth' & still most of us would not consider them to have anything more to do with Tolkien's Middle-earth than one of the DragonLance Chronicles, or volume 9,856 of The Wheel of Time.

As I said earlier, what you would end up with is M-e turned into a franchise like the Star Wars universe. The effect would be to cheapen & trivialise Tolkien's work.

Personally, I have a deep loathing of what is currently churned out under the lable 'Fantasy' & there are no more than half a dozen writers in that genre whose work I can be bothered with. I don't want Robert Jordan or Margaret Weiss churning out 'Extruded Fantasy Product' full of 'cute' Hobbits & ethereal Elves.
Actually, it's already been done.

Anyone remember George Lucas' Willow

I grant the sad aspects of franchise and serialisation--one reason why I've never taken up either the SW or the ST novelisations. Still, I can't help but note that no matter how derivative people felt Lucas' Willow was--it has garnered a better rep now through posterity--Lucas' own imaginative involvement with Tolkien clearly helped propel Lucas into his own vision. That is a different topic than the one here--did JRRT encourage new M-e stories--yet I cannot help but think that to condemn all writing done in the spirit of Tolkien is in fact to lessen the great inspiration which Tolkien provides, both to fans as well as to those writers who would do their own thing.

This thread seems to be arguing two things--the business aspect of franchising and the inspirational aspect of Tolkien's influence. Tolkien does whet the appetite for writing.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:07 AM   #69
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As I've said many times there's nowt wrong at all with having some fun writing stories based in Middle-earth. And in fact if you are talented and sensitive to Tolkien's style, then they would be worthwhile reading for the sheer fun of it, even if they are not going to expand your knowledge of Tolkien's work. I know of a fair few people who seek out the best ones and some are popular writings in their own 'right'.

BUT there has already been adequate space made by the Estate to indulge such whimsies - they are quite entitled to disallow any kind of fan-fic or RPG if they so wish. Why do they not allow 'novelisations'? Because Tolkien wrote Books, big long things with lots of words in them, lots of infinite scope for your imaginations to wander - a very different thing to films which are restrictive universes and so lend themselves more readily to expansion via novelisation. But even in that ouevre 90% of novelisations are Pants! Not just Pants, but Big Smelly Pants! Not only are they often cheesy, they confuse matters. Yeah, a new novel about Hobbits tootling round at some point in the 4th age may be entertaining but it might also be extremely confusing. Reading such things may even Ruin Your Tolkien Knowledge if you are not careful - judging by the ongoing silly confusion over names of Nazgul created by Dungeons and Dragons imaginings...

Why do people want to have their names and their work linked to Tolkien so badly?

To reflect/bask in the glory? Make themselves seem more important amongst the fans. I know of one person who has a sanctioned and published fan-fic out there (in severely limited quantities) who has actually made himself look like a bit of a you-know-what by his posturing in this way.

To make money? If so, then that makes me slightly sick.

Or do you just want to read more stories? If so then what are you belly-aching over?! There's enough good uns out there - for starters, just direct yon cursor to top o't' page and you'll find some great 'uns on this here site's own fan-fic section....

Or does everything have to be Brand Names these days?
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:26 AM   #70
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In Wide Sargasso Sea Jean Rhys, writes about Mr. Rochester's mad wife, a character from Jane Eyre. The story is about who this woman was before she became an insane, attic dwelling pyromaniac.Now if the novel had been written by Charlotte Bronte it would have been a prequel to Jane Eyre. You could have used info found there to discuss, say, the development of the character of Mr. Rochester. But Wide Sargasso Sea is the work of Jean Rhys. It's an independent work with merit of its own but it does not contribute to or expand the world of Jane Eyre. Only Charlotte Bronte could do this and indeed I don't know that it was ever Jean Rhys' intention to try. And I don't know that Bronte scholars use Ms. Rhys' work as a tool for analysing either Rochester or his mad wife. At least I have not heard of this. I would welcome corrections on the point.

Now I have understood some to say that other persons should pick up where Tolkien left off and compose new stories set in Middle Earth and I suppose using the frame work that Tolkien has provided. However, I don't see stories by other authors as adding to or expanding what Tolkien created. They would be creating something distinct. Now these works may have a value of their own but I agree with Davem that they would not be used by Tolkien scholars to discuss his work. And I also think that a lot of fans would distinguish between Tolkien's Middle Earth and the stories told by John Smith and Jane Doe.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:58 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen
In Wide Sargasso Sea Jean Rhys, writes about Mr. Rochester's mad wife, a character from Jane Eyre. .
Have to say that was one that popped into my mind - haven't read it but I did catch the recent BBC adaptation of it.

Now, I've never stated that it would be impossible for someone to write a great book based in Middle-earth. Perhaps one day they will. It won't be Tolkien though. As to it being seen as independent of Tolkien's work, that would depend on it not being authorised by the Estate - if the Estate authorised it it would inevitably be seen as part of the Legendarium. But no stories of Middle-earth can be published without the authorisation of the the Estate. Catch 22.


I just don't see that anyone will ever have the skill & insight that Tolkien had - such a writer would have to have Tolkien's intimate knowledge of Middle-earth history & languages & be as great a writer - something I think is often underplayed. AN Wilson makes some good points here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...71522693538744
(ignore the typos!)

Quote:
Now the army of Tolkien imitators and creators of alternative universes fill the fantasy sections of the libraries. They are books largely written by and for nerds.

Yet with the master, it isn't so. In this new book, as in The Silmarillion, you feel yourself in the presence of a personal genius.

It is an odd thing to say, since his aim was to create an impersonal mythology, and you can see the affinities it has with Hebrew, Greek and Nordic equivalents. The ineluctable tendency for events to go wrong, and for the beautiful and the delicate to be vanquished, knows no let-up.

Yet, though there is not one word of preaching in The Children of Hurim, you never doubt that it is worth being good, even though evil triumphs.

You close it thinking how extraordinary was the life of Tolkien, who for well over half a century, while pursuing an academic career, continued to evolve - unpublished and without much encouragement - a self-contained world of myth.
That first bit is worth re-reading: 'Now the army of Tolkien imitators and creators of alternative universes fill the fantasy sections of the libraries. They are books largely written by and for nerds.'

I think that's what we'd get - however much some may wish for a genius to give us a masterpiece.
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:11 PM   #72
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What Rys'work does is contribute a way of considering Brontë's Jane Eyre. It suggests readers ask why Rochester's first wife went mad--that is, it prompts readers who might not think to question Rochester's version of events. Certainly the events are momentous enough that Jane solidly understands the potential for her to become a second madwoman, (and who knows, perhaps she does) even as many readers fall under the sway of Rochester.

I'm not particularly a fan of Wide Sargasso Sea as I always felt that it could have done better at exploring the Creole woman's plight. Still, it stands as an interesting extrapolation of a world beyond the constricted Victorian moors--Caribbean colonial expansion, race relations, second sons and remittance men. In giving 'voice' to a character who is spectacularly silent in the original text, it of course presents a perspective which may or may not have been outside or beyond that of the original author. That is, it gives us a more contemporary reading of one aspect of the original work.

There's lots being done about Victorian fiction this way. Consider The French Lieutenant's Woman, or A. J. Byatt or even Johanna Clarke. If this is 'fair'--that contemporary writers look at the silent spots in earlier work, to explore those gaps from our world view--then there's no reason why a writer can't do the same thing to Tolkien. It wouldn't necessarily be from a "politically correct" point of view, but would in fact represent a way one writer critically rewrites a predecessor. This, I think, is a far different kettle of fish than that earlier discussed here.

Frankly, I'm waiting for a post modern deconstruction of Tom Jones. Fielding already provided one for Pamela but I think Fielding is ripe for the taking.
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:59 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
What Rys'work does is contribute a way of considering Brontë's Jane Eyre. It suggests readers ask why Rochester's first wife went mad--that is, it prompts readers who might not think to question Rochester's version of events. Certainly the events are momentous enough that Jane solidly understands the potential for her to become a second madwoman, (and who knows, perhaps she does) even as many readers fall under the sway of Rochester.
I'm not particularly a fan of Wide Sargasso Sea as I always felt that it could have done better at exploring the Creole woman's plight. Still, it stands as an interesting extrapolation of a world beyond the constricted Victorian moors--Caribbean colonial expansion, race relations, second sons and remittance men. In giving 'voice' to a character who is spectacularly silent in the original text, it of course presents a perspective which may or may not have been outside or beyond that of the original author. That is, it gives us a more contemporary reading of one aspect of the original work.
These are things that I think make Wide Sargasso Sea interesting to discuss as an independent work. But if I were analysing Bertha or Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre I don't know that I could or should rely on interpretations of those characters that Bronte never suggested. And this is why I think that Rhys' work has to be treated as distinct.

Quote:
Originally posted by davem
As to it being seen as independent of Tolkien's work, that would depend on it not being authorised by the Estate - if the Estate authorised it it would inevitably be seen as part of the Legendarium. But no stories of Middle-earth can be published without the authorisation of the the Estate. Catch 22.
But shouldn't one draw a distinction between what authorisation would mean for Tolkien scholars as opposed to readers/fans? For the former authorisation by the Estate wouldn't matter, the works still wouldn't be Tolkien's and therefore wouldn't fall within their area of study/research. (Of course your area of study may strictly be Middle Earth in which case authorisation might make a difference.)

For readers/fans I can see such authorisation dividing that group into two camps - purists who wouldn't accept such works as part of the Legendarium and others who would wish to refer to and quote such works in Tolkien discussions. The debates on Balrog wings and Bombadil will pale in comparison.
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:28 PM   #74
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Alas the Wide Sargasso Sea is a case in point of exactly why we should not allow Tolkien rip-offs. No student now can read Jane Eyre unadulterated, no student can take Charlotte Bronte's word for what it is - it is now forever tarnished thanks to Jean Rhys and her provocative, oppositional take on Bronte's work. She's entitled to do this of course, but I think it should have been left as an iconoclastic curiosity - instead it has been taken to heart by generations of lecturers scrambling for 'different interpretations'. Sigh. Poor Charlotte. But then she were only a humble Yorkshirewoman. What did she know in comparison to these clever Postmodernists.

Nothing wrong with Wide Sargasso Sea on its own, but alas, it is what it has been used for that makes it a good example here. It has been used and abused as a 'tool' to alter the thoughts and interpretations of a whole generation or more of students and young readers. And the original author cannot defend herself. I can see this happening in a hundred years' time - some post-post-modernist interpretation of Beren and Luthien in which Luthien is an oppressed Elf, raped by Beren in the woodlands and forced to go on a quest by him - and so the original thoughts of Tolkien, that it sprang from his own love for his wife, will eventually be drowned and lost.

Alas, I don't think it would even amount to that with Tolkien's work being re-interpreted and turned over for bones of spurious stories - he is not yet a literary icon, so I fear such 'books' would just be lurid nerd fodder and would only stoke the fires of those who shout about Tolkien being a load of tripe and not worthy of serious attention.

Interestingly, there are some 'follow-ups' to Jane Austen's novels too - but they did not get good reviews and the Austenites seem to hate them, no matter how skillful the author who wrote them. And look at the incredible fuss made when whoever wrote the script to the recent film of P&P had Lizzie and Darcy kiss at the end. Just think of the book bonfire if someone tampered with Tolkien in that way!

Note - I read earlier this afternoon that some novelisations from Serenity/Firefly will be written soon. However the fans are already yelling loudly that these will NEVER be accepted as canon as Joss Whedon is not involved with them! So which fans, exactly, would be lapping up the Tolkien Pulp Fiction?
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:52 PM   #75
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Again, the assumptions are being made that A) no one could understand M-e in the intimate way JRRT did (never mind that it is a flawed universe that Tolkien himself never finished); B) that no one could wish to continue the tradition for any reasons but money or self-agrandizement; C) that Middle-earth will now and forever be considered by fans and "Tolkien scholars" only within the scope of what was written by JRRT; and D) that fans and scholars would be asked thereby to consider new stories alongside the old as both being within "Tolkien's world".

A) M-e, as written by Tolkien, never was intimately understood by anyone, even Tolkien. See HoMe for details.

B) Some of us actually love M-e, and a few can actually write well, to boot.

C) Tolkien scholars can study the Tolkienesque parts of M-e stories; scholars of Middle-earth can study all stories written about it. There is no reason to equate Tolkien scholarship with Middle-earth necessarilly; in fact, there are Tolkien scholars who might only be interested in his other writings.

Also, who speaks for all or most fans of Middle-earth? I dare say that a good percentage of them are under 20, had never read any Tolkien before the movies came out, and could not get halfway through the Silmarillion. Who are we to consider our opinions more true or important than theirs?

D) Middle-earth is no longer Tolkien's world. If you don't believe me, just ask him.
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

A) M-e, as written by Tolkien, never was intimately understood by anyone, even Tolkien. See HoMe for details.
M-e is not a place external to Tolkien's writings. Tolkien's writings are M-e. Who understands what is neither here nor there in this context.

Quote:
B) Some of us actually love M-e, and a few can actually write well, to boot.
Agin, I can't see how this relates to whether there should be officially sanctioned sequels.

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C) Tolkien scholars can study the Tolkienesque parts of M-e stories; scholars of Middle-earth can study all stories written about it.
There are only 'Tolkienesque' parts of M-e. The idea they are two different things is a misunderstanding, based primarilly on how successful Tolkien was in creating the sense of secondary reality.

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There is no reason to equate Tolkien scholarship with Middle-earth necessarilly; in fact, there are Tolkien scholars who might only be interested in his other writings.
I think your second point is pretty much a non sequetur -

Quote:
Also, who speaks for all or most fans of Middle-earth? I dare say that a good percentage of them are under 20, had never read any Tolkien before the movies came out, and could not get halfway through the Silmarillion. Who are we to consider our opinions more true or important than theirs?
Good point. I think the teenage movie fans who can't manage to actually read Tolkien's books should have the last word.

Really! If we're talking here about people who couldn't actually manage to get through The Sil, I can just imagine the quality & depth of these proposed new stories.

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D) Middle-earth is no longer Tolkien's world. If you don't believe me, just ask him.
Let's form a circle & hold hands & see if we can channel him.....
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:49 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom
Again, the assumptions are being made that A) no one could understand M-e in the intimate way JRRT did (never mind that it is a flawed universe that Tolkien himself never finished); B) that no one could wish to continue the tradition for any reasons but money or self-agrandizement; C) that Middle-earth will now and forever be considered by fans and "Tolkien scholars" only within the scope of what was written by JRRT; and D) that fans and scholars would be asked thereby to consider new stories alongside the old as both being within "Tolkien's world".

A) M-e, as written by Tolkien, never was intimately understood by anyone, even Tolkien. See HoMe for details.

B) Some of us actually love M-e, and a few can actually write well, to boot.

C) Tolkien scholars can study the Tolkienesque parts of M-e stories; scholars of Middle-earth can study all stories written about it. There is no reason to equate Tolkien scholarship with Middle-earth necessarilly; in fact, there are Tolkien scholars who might only be interested in his other writings.

Also, who speaks for all or most fans of Middle-earth? I dare say that a good percentage of them are under 20, had never read any Tolkien before the movies came out, and could not get halfway through the Silmarillion. Who are we to consider our opinions more true or important than theirs?

D) Middle-earth is no longer Tolkien's world. If you don't believe me, just ask him.
A - nobody can understand it like he could. That's a fact. When he said he was 'finding out what happened' it didn't mean that Middle-earth actually existed at some mysterious point beyond platform 9 and three-quarters, he was talking about the creation which existed within his mind, as many creations exist within many minds. I have my own and find out new things about it daily - it doesn't mean it is real. It's like the explanation that Father Ted had to give Father Dougal about Dreams and Reality.

B. First off, if you don't want money or fame then what's wrong with writing fan-fic as you can right now? What possible reason could there be for you to want to publish a book when the internet already offers you the chance for your fan-fic to be well loved by fans? If, of course, you are prepared to make the effort that is...

And anyone may well be a good writer, they may well be the best writer, but they are not nor ever will be Tolkien - many nuances go into creating a writer and their unique style, from their early education and influences to where they live, their specific social class, their gender, race, even what technical methods they use to write - pen or word processor. Nobody could ever hope to replicate those circumstances. And look at the controversy over how much and if his religion influenced him - how could anyone hope to get over that?

C. I'm neither interested in anything written in Tolkien's name by anyone so utterly pretentious as to call themselves a 'Tolkien Scholar' nor by some 15 year old Christopher Paolini clone. Hmmm, funny how that 500 years down the line Shakespeare's work has not been 'expanded' by the ponderings of ghost writers - you know, there is no Midsummer Nights Dream Part VIII (in the manner of Police Academy's many interminable parts). Why would Tolkien be any different? Only if he's to be considered not as a serious writer but as a producer of mere entertaining pap of course.

D. Legally, it is I'm afraid. And is likely to remain so due to use of Trade Marks. We're privileged enough to be allowed to write and independently publish on the net our fan-fics, which is very generous of the Estate as it is. Wanting more for ourselves is just submitting to Greed and likely, Pride too.
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:45 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Lalwendë
A - nobody can understand it like he could. That's a fact. When he said he was 'finding out what happened' it didn't mean that Middle-earth actually existed at some mysterious point beyond platform 9 and three-quarters, he was talking about the creation which existed within his mind, as many creations exist within many minds. I have my own and find out new things about it daily - it doesn't mean it is real. It's like the explanation that Father Ted had to give Father Dougal about Dreams and Reality.

B. First off, if you don't want money or fame then what's wrong with writing fan-fic as you can right now? What possible reason could there be for you to want to publish a book when the internet already offers you the chance for your fan-fic to be well loved by fans? If, of course, you are prepared to make the effort that is...

And anyone may well be a good writer, they may well be the best writer, but they are not nor ever will be Tolkien - many nuances go into creating a writer and their unique style, from their early education and influences to where they live, their specific social class, their gender, race, even what technical methods they use to write - pen or word processor. Nobody could ever hope to replicate those circumstances. And look at the controversy over how much and if his religion influenced him - how could anyone hope to get over that?

C. I'm neither interested in anything written in Tolkien's name by anyone so utterly pretentious as to call themselves a 'Tolkien Scholar' nor by some 15 year old Christopher Paolini clone. Hmmm, funny how that 500 years down the line Shakespeare's work has not been 'expanded' by the ponderings of ghost writers - you know, there is no Midsummer Nights Dream Part VIII (in the manner of Police Academy's many interminable parts). Why would Tolkien be any different? Only if he's to be considered not as a serious writer but as a producer of mere entertaining pap of course.

D. Legally, it is I'm afraid. And is likely to remain so due to use of Trade Marks. We're privileged enough to be allowed to write and independently publish on the net our fan-fics, which is very generous of the Estate as it is. Wanting more for ourselves is just submitting to Greed and likely, Pride too.
If you will forgive me for staying slightly off topic in this manner...

A) My point here is that, as an objection to new M-e fiction, merely acknowledging that JRRT had a unique voice, etc. does not mean that M-e should be given in only one voice, or that JRRT himself would not have allowed it.

B) Here, I have not meant that fanfic is not allowed in some fashion or that the Estate isn't being generous in this, but that the overwhelming opinion here seems to be that such writing (regardless if it might be done by members here) is frivolous by nature and should never be considered otherwise. The assumption is made that to wish for official recognition is always vain or in hopes for (undeserved) money. Can you not see how such assumptions are, at best, overly all-consuming and, at worst, insulting to the fanbase in general?

C) I'm not particularly interested in "Tolkien scholars" myself, although I think it would be prudent to consider CT to be the preeminent specimen; however, it wasn't I who first mentioned these scholars, hence the quotes. The presumption, again, was that only JRRT's writings constitute scholarship in M-e in general, thus "Tolkien scholar", as opposed to "student of the mythology and stories of Middle-earth", which need not include only JRRT.

Always, the replies come with cute remarks like "not as a serious writer but as a producer of mere entertaining pap". Unfounded assumptions that all "serious" writers can't possibly wish to, or be able to, contribute to M-e. Shakespeare also rewrote older stories by other writers, you know, beside expanding upon histories of kings. In fact, the Wiki states-"Romeo and Juliet is a dramatization of Arthur Brooke's narrative poem 'The Tragical History of Romeus and Juliet.'" Shakespeare, what a "producer of mere entertaining pap".

D) Legally, M-e is the property of the Estate, indeed. That's not what is being argued. The question is whether JRRT discouraged new stories and, my tangential angle, that the idea shouldn't be shrugged off so contemptuously. JRRT could argue up and down while alive that no one but he should be allowed to write in his world (although at least one story written by a family member was reportedly accepted happily, if not canonically), but did he ever say that no one should be allowed to write in it after he was gone? And the fact remains that he is gone. There will be no more decisions on the matter coming from his pen, so it is up to the living to decide. I welcome the Estate's authority in the matter, especially because of the conservative nature they have shown in the past, but I simply don't believe JRRT wanted the matter to be closed forever. He didn't write the stories for himself only, why be so adamant that he wanted no one else to write them also?
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Old 06-08-2007, 06:08 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Lalwendë
"Authoritative" - isn't the clue in the word itself? It includes the Author - no mention of Robert Jordan, Alex Lewis or anyone else.

Author...itative - whatever 'itative' means, but there you go. Authoritative means the Author.

It is interesting to see that you now hold the author to have ultimate rights over his work, while in previous threads you and davem argued that your own personal interpretations hold water no matter what Tolkien said elsewhere, be it letters, HoME, UT, Silmarillion. If subjective interpretation was the primary criterion you accepted as valid in judging his work, then surely you must accept that everyone can choose to consider relevant whatever ideea, or in the context of this thread, writting. Else, you are using a double standard.
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Old 06-08-2007, 06:13 AM   #80
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Oh, and davem, your continued insistence that M-e only exists in the works of JRRT is fine, but it's an opinion. Every reader, indeed everyone who has had any connection to the stories, even by rumor only, has some conceptualization of M-e within him. I think we would agree that none of those can be the same as JRRT's, but they do exist. If only the concept of M-e that matters died with him, then why read it? Why make movies or paintings or even fanfic? Does M-e not exist for you when you put down the books? If not, then I pity you. But let the rest of us keep it alive.
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