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#321 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Well, it looks like I won't have to look at Lommy's posting toDay after all...
A few thoughts: 1. The Zil vote seems a bit worryingly sudden. 2. However, I also think the early spreading out of the vote needs to be looked at more closely. 3. Let's have the Dead Thread discussion now, please. 4. On the topic of the Dead Thread, over the course of the Night, my suspicion of Nogroddue to his dismissal of the Dead Thread plan has returned. Not specifically his disagreement, but rather his attempt to discredit and derail it without offering any proper alternative (sure, it may be the case that the Dead should be the ones telling the Living what to do, but the Living are still the ones with the power of lynching, and they still need to be communicated with). For example, last Night, instead of either voting for himself (and being revealed) or not (thereby being found out), a B]Boro[/B]-wolf could now potentially try to justify not cooperating (in this case, cooperating being voting for himself for the Night reveal). I find it hard to believe that this possibility would not have occurred to Nog, which makes me suspect him. Ok, it's very late and I'm very tired, so going to sleep now. I hope to wake up to some good discussion, village!
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#322 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Well, Steve, here's your plan from yesterDay.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#323 |
The Sweetest Spoiler
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,810
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Quoting is being problematic from my phone, but I agree with your above post, Nerwen. The idea of the villain(s) doing that is hard to swallow. Even Phantom wouldn't consider such a gambit.
![]() Hang on. Phantom's not secretly playing, is he?!
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"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit." Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together. Fenris bookworm.
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#324 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Actually you are talking to someone who literally did try such a gambit once, in another game with special rules- but we were in desperate straits, and the sacrificial wolf was pretty much on the block anyway. I don't see that applying here, at least not yet.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#325 |
The Sweetest Spoiler
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly
Posts: 5,810
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Precisely.
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"My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit." Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together. Fenris bookworm.
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#326 |
Werewolf Psychic
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In fire, water, earth, and air. But mostly water.
Posts: 2,832
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Y'all, I am very sorry for missing yesterday. I've been horrendously sick.
![]() Will catch up and post stuff soon, promise.
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Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV |
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#327 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#328 |
Werewolf Psychic
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In fire, water, earth, and air. But mostly water.
Posts: 2,832
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So I've caught up as far as reading the thread. I'll need to really try and dig in tomorrow, but without further ado, my three suspects are -
Zil, Lommy, and Sally. Huh. Well that won't do. Back to the drawing board, I suppose - although I do feel like Sally is sorta evil, I still need to go back and figure out why I thought that.
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Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV |
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#329 | |
Werewolf Psychic
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In fire, water, earth, and air. But mostly water.
Posts: 2,832
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I think it was this post, because I was leaning evil on Inzil. I was thinking Lommy and he were linked together, though, so for her to be dead last night is strange to me, so now I don't know. Sally's post about "all y'all are in trouble" also dinged me a bit, though. I'm not sold, but I'm still leaning evil. (Sorry, dear.)
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Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV |
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#330 |
Werewolf Psychic
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In fire, water, earth, and air. But mostly water.
Posts: 2,832
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Shasta– ... However, if he's innocent his famous clairvoyant powers must be taking the week off. Meanwhile, the Night-kills have been awfully effective– almost like we're dealing with a psychic wolf... - Nerwen, WW LXXV |
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#331 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
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At least they voted, showed their colours and left an audit trail. But there is a point in this game when what you don't do takes on as least as much significance as what you do. Can't help thinking the range would be more an issue for a servant of evil than someone with genuine (though possibly misplaced) suspicion.
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#332 | |
Reflection of Darkness
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 3,027
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On the Dead Thread...
Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this? Eonwe, now that I'm starting to wrap my head around your strategy, while I do like where you're going with it, I see flaws. For one thing, last Night there were two in the Dead Thread which means they could vote to reveal a role. How do we know for sure that they cooperated and allowed this to happen? And if they did, how do we know if the role revealed was Morsul or Inzil? The theory of the EW killing their own wolf seems out there, yet the mere fact that it was discussed yesterDay may have prompted last Night's vote to go towards Morsul. Quote:
A strategy is needed, I agree. My main concern is that in our attempt to create a communication system with the dead, we will end up causing miscommunication and even more confusion. After all, while we can direct the Dead Thread and hope for the best, there's really no way to tell for sure if they are actually following the directions at any given time.
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#333 |
Reflection of Darkness
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 3,027
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Unlike Sally, I'm not quite as concerned about the early voters who spread their votes out. While it's no good to spread the votes out too thin, they all voted early enough for others to step in and prevent another tie.
The last few bandwagon votes for Inzil are more concerning and may require a further look. But I will leave that for another time as it is late and I need sleep.
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#334 | |||||
Wisest of the Noldor
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Just reading through previous Days and thought I'd comment on this-
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Edit:x'd with 2 Brinns.
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#335 | |||
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,995
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#336 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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I actually thought I'd mentioned yesterDay too, only I can't find any such post. ![]()
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#337 | |||
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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We can never be quite sure if we interpret the dead-empowerment the right way - and the whole point of any kind of major plan is to gain REAL knowledge, not just "it might mean x" (which is the accuracy of our own deductions here). But a rigid system comes with the expense of the Dead-thread becoming an automaton - while still not helping us in any reasonable way. So the costs far outweight the benefits. That said, after thinking about it a little I'm actually softening my critique of the plan - or admitting my own guidelines (which I suggested yesterDay) not being as good as I thought them to be. The problem I didn't quite realize yesterDay is, that the Dead have less to go on with in this kind of a special game because like us on D1 and 2 they'll also struggle with the fact that there aren't that many special roles yet aka. there's less to "read" or to make inferences from. But even with the Dead being a little less powerful I kind of thought them to be yesterDay, I'd still say it is too little gain from trying to tie the hands of the Dead-thread (and even ours) - and unwise from us the Living as it would create chances for the evil side to hide their voting in their possibly totally reasonable arguments on an interpretation of the empowerment vote that benefits their cause. Quote:
I mean Boro is alive and thus does not vote anything on Nights - nobody votes on Nights, right? If you mean that Boro-wolf would have made a suicide on D1 and then decided not to co-operate in the Dead-thread then what's the problem - he'd be overpowered in no time and his actions would actually target him there etc. Quote:
Let the Dead play as hard as they can and battle it out there with their extra knowledge and try to win this game for us by affecting the lynches and trying to signal us whom they think is the most suspicious person by empowering a vote to someone they think should be lynched. Ok. I'm in a hurry right now, but I'll be back later...
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#338 | ||||
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Posts: 3,995
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For now, we can only hope that the two did adhere to the plan. If not, then I imagine if Nog is a wolf/EW, he's feeling very proud of himself right around now. Quote:
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1. We should take anything from the Dead Thread with a pinch of salt. Ultimately, we have no idea what's going on there, even if we can hope that they're trying to help us. 2. Later on, the needs of the game might change, and we shouldn't force ourselves (or the Dead Thread) to stick to a rigid plan every Day/Night. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try early on. Also, one final thing to clear up: In my first post toDay, I said Boro-wolf. Of course I meant a Zil-wolf. I was very tired when I posted that... I'll be back later. edit: x-posted with Brinn and Nogrod
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#339 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
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Okay, first things first. I think we should make sure to figure out the communication with Dead Thread ASAP now, otherwise they won't have even remote chance to communicating anything. As soon as we can get that off the table, we can focus more on Lommy's death and on the lynch yesterDay.
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In any case, the "two-answer list" such as the one that has been quoted from yesterDay wouldn't do, in my opinion. On top of everything, if potential Wolves on the Dead Thread managed to mess up with the vote, we would end up with completely the opposite information really easily (even though that's always a risk). In any case, if I am thinking of a list, I say we should at least modify it to say, for instance, "none of the above". Ideally, split it into more parts, which should not be that big of a deal now (it would become more difficult once the Dead thread starts to fill up, but at least for toDay, I think that should work. We can always modify the lists later). In other words, we should bear in mind the possibilities of the Dead thread working differently than we want them to, take into account possible "civic disobedience" of the Dead thread and what have you. So if, using Eönwë's list modified for toDay, it was: Quote:
It's a draft, but I think it could work like that. At least for toDay. Again, our main goal should be to avoid chaos among the Dead. I will leave this here to look at, and meanwhile I will try to look at what can be learned from Lommy's death, and hopefully also the voting yesterDay. EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen, Nogrod and Eönwë
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#340 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#341 | ||
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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But seriously, the problem is that while this sounds reasonable, and is probably what we should do later on in the game, what does it actually mean for the early Days? If we have a fixed plan (and especially for the Night-voting), it means that either innocents cooperate to prove their innocence, or wolves either cooperate or are forced to out themselves by not cooperating, as discussed with Zil above. That is a practical (and practicable) plan, while saying 'let them do the best they can by telling us who they think is guilty' has two problems. First of all, it means we in the Living Thread are a lot less likely to get the hard facts (or at least what is being transmitted about the hard facts) about who was innocent or guilty, which at this point is pretty much the only useful information we can get. Secondly, it muddies the waters, and gives the baddies more things to hide behind (and options to create draws in the voting). Yes, later on, it might be good, but now such a plan is not really a plan, and to say otherwise seems a bit disingenuous. edit: x-ed since my last post.
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#342 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Posts: 3,995
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Oh, and surely empowering the most suspicious person could cause problems?
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#343 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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I think he must mean empowering a vote *for* the most suspicious person.
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#344 | |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Well, technically, Legate, given that toDay is an odd Day, it should be an A-Z list
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In which case, we could have something like: Voted Zil, Zil was PREY Boromir88 Brinniel Eomer of the Rohirrim Voted Zil, Zil was PREDATOR Eönwë Lalaith Voted Morsul, Morsul was PREY Legate of Amon Lanc Loslote Voted Morsul, Morsul was PREDATOR Mithalwen Nerwen Tie, each voted the other Nogrod Pervinca Took Tie, each voted themself satansaloser2005 Shastanis Althreduin
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#345 | |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Posts: 3,995
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#346 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Though that does come with the problems that:
1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline. 2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up. Ok, actually going now. Will be back later in the Day.
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#347 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Quote:
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#348 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,606
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#349 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything? You could sum them up under the same thing, at least. "There was a tie". And leave the last part for "none of the above". I mean, I can't imagine what the "none of the above" would be, but. (Well maybe it could be "We are not going to run according to your schemes and we're going to do our own stuff like Nog suggests?" That would also solve that debate.)
Anyway I am actually going to use the nice weather here IRL and take tortoises out for a pasture (yes, you heard right), but I should be back in not such a long time. Try to figure out something with the Dead debate.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#350 | |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,876
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I'm ok with a list and I think that the Dead (at least the innocents) would try to vote for Zil. So I think we should be sectioned into three ways, Zil bad, Zil good, none of the above.That way the Dead have plenty of choice.
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling Last edited by Lalaith; 07-15-2017 at 04:29 AM. Reason: forgot to say "empowering" |
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#351 |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,876
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I'm going out and will be back later with lots of thoughts...but I thought I'd get my views on the Dead out there asap as I agree we need early agreement.
Also I have two questions, which may be for Kuru alone to answer as I can't find it in the Rules. That is because the ideas that I have are based on two assumptions - one is that the Wizards cannot continue making roles once they are in the Dead Thread. The other is that a win for wolves and EW is the same as it is in an ordinary game, ie live wolves have to outnumber live villagers. Are both my assumptions correct?
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#352 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#353 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#354 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Talking of Morsul- if you want proof that the Dead are reading this thread pretty closely, check out his signature. It used to be "R.I.P. Morsul 07-12-2017. Cause of Death: Werewolf". Now it's "Is not Gollum, thank you very much", which is an obvious reference to this post of mine from yesterDay:
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#355 |
Laconic Loreman
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Agree with only 3 groups, Zil was innocent, Zil was wolf, none of the above.
And moving forward agree with Nerwen that we should only ask the dead to check the lynchees (unless in the event of a hunter kill). Knowing the lynchees alignment is in my opinion going to be more beneficial...and considering the delay of information the wolves might be bolder/aggressive in pursuing lynches than they would in a normal game where roles get revealed immediately. Today is the one day the DL is going to suck for me. I may be able to return and vote, may not. Cheers. ![]()
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Fenris Penguin
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#356 |
Laconic Loreman
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And hopefully we can have a visitor clear up any of the "none of the above" options we're left with in the future.
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#357 | ||
Reflection of Darkness
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull.
Posts: 3,027
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Another option I can think of if we want to keep the list divided in two categories, is we can instruct the Dead Thread to use their empowerment vote toMorrow to communicate Inzil's role. The downside of that is we would be a Day behind on finding out roles if they already know Inzil's and toDay's empowerment vote would essentially have no meaning behind it. Quote:
As for me, I can tell you that in most cases I am only able to be around during the first hours of the Day and then not again until the last hour or two. On that note, I will be leaving for a day trip soon, though I should hopefully be back for the end of the Day. So I don't think I can add much more to the Dead Thread discussion toDay at least since once I return, I will need to focus on who to vote for.
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#358 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,992
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So today's the day we could see the duel, eh? I had guessed that we would have been aware of a visitor by now.
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#359 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Proposed Empowerment List
ZIL = PREY Boromir88 Brinniel Eomer of the Rohirrim Eönwë Lalaith ZIL = PREDATOR Legate of Amon Lanc Loslote Mithalwen Nerwen NONE OF THE ABOVE Nogrod Pervinca Took satansaloser2005 Shastanis Althreduin Any objections?
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#360 | |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,876
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Btw - do they decide to empower before or after the votes?
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