Tolkien vocabulary I (serious) - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

piosenniel · 07-23-2002, 05:23 PM

Would the Girdle of Melian be considered a leaguer of Doriath in any way?

Rimbaud · 07-23-2002, 05:32 PM

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It's almost a disappointment to give in...but reading, I found this, which I think conclusively tilts your way...

Quote:

...but Turgon shut his ear to any word of the woes without, and vowed to march never at the side of any son of Feanor; and his people he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.

I can only reconcile this through a potential use of metaphor; on a literal reading this leaguer does not mean either "military camp" or "siege". I would perhaps, were the point more than mere semantics, argue that that is a metaphor but my mind leans the same way in this as yours so I shall refrain...

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

***Mister Underhill*** · 07-23-2002, 07:48 PM

Now if I could only arrange for an impassable leaguer around my bank account, I'd be in good shape...

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-24-2002, 12:39 AM

This great discussion of the word "leaguer" would be a fitting addition to the Talking Tolkien page on the site! How about it, mods and ops?

Kettle of fish · 07-24-2002, 02:19 AM

This has been one of the more enjoyable threads. Keep it coming.

Rimbaud · 07-24-2002, 07:43 AM

In tardy reply to piosennial's additional question, which I have just observed...

Quote:

Would the Girdle of Melian be considered a leaguer of Doriath in any way?

...the discussion between Underhill and I would appear to suggest an affirmative in that case.

Any further words or phrases worthy of this thread?

***Mister Underhill*** · 07-24-2002, 08:35 AM

Just to follow up and refine the useage of "leaguer" a bit more, I'd say the principle is right with Melian's Girdle and Doriath, but Tolkien's useage of the word usually seems to include a physical blockade or barrier -- the Noldor forces permanently encamped near Angband; the impassable hills surrounding Gondolin; the sheer peaks of the Pelóri around Valinor.

I'd venture to opine that the shade of meaning of "leaguer" isn't quite right for Doriath's more intangible partition.

Rimbaud · 07-24-2002, 08:48 AM

I confess to some disagreement there. 'Beleagured' can be applied to a stressed or fractious mental state, which is intangible. I do not believe there must be any materiél barrier or partition. Although I will concede that Tolkien may well not have used the word in such a context and thusly may not have applied 'leaguer' to the protection of Doriath.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

***Mister Underhill*** · 07-24-2002, 08:55 AM

I agree with your point, Stephanos. I was referring more to Tolkien's (somewhat unique) use of the word in its "defensive" mode and probably should have dropped the Angband reference from my list of examples.

greyhavener · 07-24-2002, 10:18 AM

Words are such a playground and it's wonderful to find people who can make it across the bars!

piosenniel · 07-26-2002, 02:31 AM

One more vocabulary question: Would you discuss 'rede' and why Tolkien might have chosen to use it instead of a more common word such as 'counsel' or 'scheme'.

It came to my notice reading about the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales II, where Idril uses it quite often when talking about what she thinks needs to be done.

doug*platypus · 01-16-2004, 03:27 AM

Confusing language? Look no further than Bagshot Row...

Quote:

What's come of his weskit?

Hamfast Gamgee

Help!

Of course, I could wander off this site and look the word up, but then I would be depriving you all of the chance to look at this interesting word and its etymology! Plus, most of the internet is too bright... there's nothing like a Deeply Delved barrow. Mmm... shameless self-promotion...

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-16-2004, 08:08 AM

'Weskit' is a rustic form of 'waistcoat'.

'Rede' is probably used because Tolkien thought it looked better than 'counsel' in the context. I suspect that it also has something to do with the fact that 'rede' is a survival through Middle English of Old English rædan, whereas 'counsel' comes from the Latin consilium via Old French conseil. It could even be that Tolkien was just using a synonym of 'counsel' so as to avoid overuse of either term.

Corwyn Celesil · 01-16-2004, 12:03 PM

No one has at yet responded to a much earlier question about the meaning of the word 'fell,' which is frequently used when describing the people of Rohan. My admittedly American dictionary describes it thus: "1 Fierce; terrible; cruel. 2 Deadly: archaic except in the phrase "one fell swoop," a single effort or action that is completely effective, devastating, etc." That is pretty much what I gained from the context of the writings I have read that used that word. Many word meanings can be extrapolated from context. Any other thoughts on 'fell'?

Sparrow · 01-16-2004, 12:27 PM

The word 'fell' in the context of its use in the works of Tolkien is probably best described by the 'admittedly American' definitions you provided, particularly '2 Deeadly; archaic except in the phrase "one fell swoop."' Tolkien often uses the word to describe the agents of evil (e.g. a "felll blade," "fell beast," "fell host," "the fell captain of Mordor," etc.), although I believe he also uses it occassionally in a way that connotes ferocity, prowess and/or power when referring to the actions of the 'good guys' of Middle-earth.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-16-2004, 12:49 PM

He's also been known to use 'fell' in the sense of a pelt or hide, as in Bombadil Goes Boating ("'I'll give your otter-fell to Barrow-wights. They'll taw you!'") and in the Lay of Leithian, where he wrote:

Quote:

His dreadful counsel then they took,
and their own gracious forms forsook;
in werewolf fell and batlike wing
prepared to robe them, shuddering.

The first quotation raises another question: what does 'taw' mean? My Concise Oxford has "Make (hide) into leather without use of tannin, esp. by soaking in solution of alum and salt." A dire threat indeed!

Sparrow · 01-16-2004, 01:13 PM

Quote:

"Make (hide) into leather without use of tannin, esp. by soaking in solution of alum and salt."

A horrifying notion! Those barrow-wights are truly capable of unspeakable evil.

Perhaps taw is a bit of jibberish constructed by Tolkien for the use of Iarwain alone, although my guess would be that even if this were the case, there would be a bit of clever etymology behind it.

Tolkien also uses 'fell' as a noun in "Of Beren and Luthien" in The Silmarillion, describing Luthien 'in the winged fell of Thuringwethil,' in which I would assume 'fell' means something possessing the qualities and characteristics that 'fell' - as the adjective synonymous with 'cruel' and 'ferocious' - describe.

~Sparrow

***Sharkû*** · 01-16-2004, 01:39 PM

The "fell of Thuringwethil" is undoubtedly just her hide, as it fits perfectly with the definitions in the OED:
"1. The skin or hide of an animal [...] 3. A covering of hair, wool, etc., esp. when thick and matted; a fleece. Often in phr. a fell of hair, a head or shock of hair." (OED2 on CD-ROM, _fell n1_)

_Taw_, on the other hand, means just what Squatter said, but also has less specific meaning clearly associated with the processing of animal hides:
"1. trans. To make ready, prepare, or dress (some raw material) for use, or for further manipulation; e.g. to soften (hides) by beating, to heckle (hemp), etc.; [...]
† 3. fig. To treat (a person) abusively or with contumely; to vex, torment; to harass, afflict; to abuse, outrage, profane. Obs. [...]
b. To whip, flog, thrash. Obs. exc. dial." (ibid, _taw v1_)

Sparrow · 01-16-2004, 02:26 PM

Touche.

parakeet · 03-20-2011, 06:51 PM

I have kept a list of unusual vocabulary from LothR. Some of the words seem familiar, but not in the context. I read a 3 volume edition that may not match other people's copies. Does anyone know of a LothR vocabulary list or glossary? It seems that most such things are about 'elvish'. I am interested in the uncommon English words. Below is a few examples:
Volume 1
p.72 lor
90 brakes, ride
91 greensward
107 worriting
116 fell
120 spinney
128 dragonets
141 wights
157 damasked
181 pate

266 glede
306 doughty
369 bole
408 thrawn
417 wains
421 rowans

Inziladun · 03-20-2011, 08:18 PM

I'd hate to commit a forum fowl for being off-topic, but I'd just like to make the observation that a post from Sparrow was followed by a post from parakeet.

The Might · 03-21-2011, 07:06 AM

Thanks for bumping this thread, Inzil, I never really thought about the existence of "Tolkien vocabulary". I'll have to mark strange words the next time I re-read LotR.

Morthoron · 03-21-2011, 11:29 AM

I'm at work currently, so I'll answer what I can off the top of my head (while at the same looking terribly busy and professional):

p.72 lor -- mild expletive contraction for "lord"
90 brakes, ride -- a "brake" is a thicket, a "ride" is a stretch of open land
91 greensward -- an area of grass
107 worriting -- colloquial for "worrying"
116 fell -- An upland stretch of open country; a moor
120 spinney -- a thorny thicket
128 dragonets -- a type of fish or a miniature dragon
141 wights -- you're kidding me. You need this defined?
157 damasked -- could either refer to elaborately designed cloth or the steel of a blade
181 pate -- top of the head
266 glede -- a bird of prey, like a kite
306 doughty -- courageous or brave; usually only Dwarves are doughty (really!)
369 bole -- another name for a trunk or base of a tree
408 thrawn -- crooked or misshapen; could also mean perverse or stubborn
417 wains -- wagons
421 rowans -- a rowan is a type of tree with red berries

Pitchwife · 03-21-2011, 02:08 PM

Let's not forget eyot "small island", another favourite word of the Professor's, which is a curious linguistic bastard, consisting of OE eg "island" (which still survives in such place-names as Bardsey, Orkneys) with a French diminutive suffix tagged on.

Interestingly, the already much discussed fey "doomed to die" has a cognate in German feig, which originally had the same meaning as in English and is still so used in the Nibelungenlied, but has shifted to meaning "timid, cowardly, craven" in Modern German - quite the opposite of Tolkien's fey. Diachronic semantics is a funny thing.

Morthoron · 03-21-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Interestingly, the already much discussed fey "doomed to die" has a cognate in German feig, which originally had the same meaning as in English and is still so used in the Nibelungenlied, but has shifted to meaning "timid, cowardly, craven" in Modern German - quite the opposite of Tolkien's fey. Diachronic semantics is a funny thing.

Fey is also synonymous with 'netherworldly', 'supernatural' or 'of the faeries', as in Morgan le Fay (or the alternate le Fey), from the French fée or fairy.

Mithalwen · 03-21-2011, 02:59 PM

Parakeet, Hammond and Scull's Lord of the Rings - A readers companion includes explanation of unusual vocabulary as well as many useful references and insights. It has pagination for 3 and single volumes but superficially your pages do seem different however given that the notes follow the text and are divided into identically named chapters it should still work.

I wonder if it is just because I have been reading Tolkien so long that most of these words don't seem strange? Maybe not in all cases though some may be specifically British usage... like fell in the geographical sense. Brake is used locally to me to refer to gorse thickets.

07-23-2002, 05:23 PM	#41
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,786	Would the Girdle of Melian be considered a leaguer of Doriath in any way? __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-24-2002, 12:39 AM	#44
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,535	This great discussion of the word "leaguer" would be a fitting addition to the Talking Tolkien page on the site! How about it, mods and ops? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-24-2002, 02:19 AM	#45
Kettle of fish Wight Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 114	This has been one of the more enjoyable threads. Keep it coming. __________________ The inimical is often more instructive than the benign. Between screams, try to pay attention.

07-24-2002, 08:48 AM	#48
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,070	I confess to some disagreement there. 'Beleagured' can be applied to a stressed or fractious mental state, which is intangible. I do not believe there must be any materiél barrier or partition. Although I will concede that Tolkien may well not have used the word in such a context and thusly may not have applied 'leaguer' to the protection of Doriath. [ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ] __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-24-2002, 10:18 AM	#50
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	Words are such a playground and it's wonderful to find people who can make it across the bars! __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

07-23-2002, 07:48 PM	#43
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,746	Now if I could only arrange for an impassable leaguer around my bank account, I'd be in good shape...

07-24-2002, 08:35 AM	#47
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,746	Just to follow up and refine the useage of "leaguer" a bit more, I'd say the principle is right with Melian's Girdle and Doriath, but Tolkien's useage of the word usually seems to include a physical blockade or barrier -- the Noldor forces permanently encamped near Angband; the impassable hills surrounding Gondolin; the sheer peaks of the Pelóri around Valinor. I'd venture to opine that the shade of meaning of "leaguer" isn't quite right for Doriath's more intangible partition.

07-24-2002, 08:55 AM	#49
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,746	I agree with your point, Stephanos. I was referring more to Tolkien's (somewhat unique) use of the word in its "defensive" mode and probably should have dropped the Angband reference from my list of examples.

07-26-2002, 02:31 AM	#51
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,786	One more vocabulary question: Would you discuss 'rede' and why Tolkien might have chosen to use it instead of a more common word such as 'counsel' or 'scheme'. It came to my notice reading about the Fall of Gondolin in the Book of Lost Tales II, where Idril uses it quite often when talking about what she thinks needs to be done. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

01-16-2004, 08:08 AM	#53
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,184	'Weskit' is a rustic form of 'waistcoat'. 'Rede' is probably used because Tolkien thought it looked better than 'counsel' in the context. I suspect that it also has something to do with the fact that 'rede' is a survival through Middle English of Old English rædan, whereas 'counsel' comes from the Latin consilium via Old French conseil. It could even be that Tolkien was just using a synonym of 'counsel' so as to avoid overuse of either term. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

01-16-2004, 12:03 PM	#54
Corwyn Celesil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The House of the Fountain, Gondolin Posts: 57	No one has at yet responded to a much earlier question about the meaning of the word 'fell,' which is frequently used when describing the people of Rohan. My admittedly American dictionary describes it thus: "1 Fierce; terrible; cruel. 2 Deadly: archaic except in the phrase "one fell swoop," a single effort or action that is completely effective, devastating, etc." That is pretty much what I gained from the context of the writings I have read that used that word. Many word meanings can be extrapolated from context. Any other thoughts on 'fell'? __________________ Then came there from the south of the city the people of the Fountain, and Ecthelion was their lord, and silver and diamonds were their delight; and swords very long and bright and pale did they wield . . .

01-16-2004, 12:27 PM	#55
Sparrow Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Paris Herself Posts: 28	The word 'fell' in the context of its use in the works of Tolkien is probably best described by the 'admittedly American' definitions you provided, particularly '2 Deeadly; archaic except in the phrase "one fell swoop."' Tolkien often uses the word to describe the agents of evil (e.g. a "felll blade," "fell beast," "fell host," "the fell captain of Mordor," etc.), although I believe he also uses it occassionally in a way that connotes ferocity, prowess and/or power when referring to the actions of the 'good guys' of Middle-earth. __________________ Were kisses all the joys in bed, One woman would another wed. -Bill Shakespeare

01-16-2004, 01:39 PM	#58
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	The "fell of Thuringwethil" is undoubtedly just her hide, as it fits perfectly with the definitions in the OED: "1. The skin or hide of an animal [...] 3. A covering of hair, wool, etc., esp. when thick and matted; a fleece. Often in phr. a fell of hair, a head or shock of hair." (OED2 on CD-ROM, _fell n1_) _Taw_, on the other hand, means just what Squatter said, but also has less specific meaning clearly associated with the processing of animal hides: "1. trans. To make ready, prepare, or dress (some raw material) for use, or for further manipulation; e.g. to soften (hides) by beating, to heckle (hemp), etc.; [...] † 3. fig. To treat (a person) abusively or with contumely; to vex, torment; to harass, afflict; to abuse, outrage, profane. Obs. [...] b. To whip, flog, thrash. Obs. exc. dial." (ibid, _taw v1_)

01-16-2004, 02:26 PM	#59
Sparrow Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Paris Herself Posts: 28	Touche. __________________ Were kisses all the joys in bed, One woman would another wed. -Bill Shakespeare

03-20-2011, 06:51 PM	#60
parakeet Newly Deceased Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1	vocabulary I have kept a list of unusual vocabulary from LothR. Some of the words seem familiar, but not in the context. I read a 3 volume edition that may not match other people's copies. Does anyone know of a LothR vocabulary list or glossary? It seems that most such things are about 'elvish'. I am interested in the uncommon English words. Below is a few examples: Volume 1 p.72 lor 90 brakes, ride 91 greensward 107 worriting 116 fell 120 spinney 128 dragonets 141 wights 157 damasked 181 pate 266 glede 306 doughty 369 bole 408 thrawn 417 wains 421 rowans

03-20-2011, 08:18 PM	#61
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,046	I'd hate to commit a forum fowl for being off-topic, but I'd just like to make the observation that a post from Sparrow was followed by a post from parakeet. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

03-21-2011, 07:06 AM	#62
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,237	Thanks for bumping this thread, Inzil, I never really thought about the existence of "Tolkien vocabulary". I'll have to mark strange words the next time I re-read LotR. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

03-21-2011, 11:29 AM	#63
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,504	I'm at work currently, so I'll answer what I can off the top of my head (while at the same looking terribly busy and professional): p.72 lor -- mild expletive contraction for "lord" 90 brakes, ride -- a "brake" is a thicket, a "ride" is a stretch of open land 91 greensward -- an area of grass 107 worriting -- colloquial for "worrying" 116 fell -- An upland stretch of open country; a moor 120 spinney -- a thorny thicket 128 dragonets -- a type of fish or a miniature dragon 141 wights -- you're kidding me. You need this defined? 157 damasked -- could either refer to elaborately designed cloth or the steel of a blade 181 pate -- top of the head 266 glede -- a bird of prey, like a kite 306 doughty -- courageous or brave; usually only Dwarves are doughty (really!) 369 bole -- another name for a trunk or base of a tree 408 thrawn -- crooked or misshapen; could also mean perverse or stubborn 417 wains -- wagons 421 rowans -- a rowan is a type of tree with red berries __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

03-21-2011, 02:08 PM	#64
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,341	Let's not forget eyot "small island", another favourite word of the Professor's, which is a curious linguistic bastard, consisting of OE eg "island" (which still survives in such place-names as Bardsey, Orkneys) with a French diminutive suffix tagged on. Interestingly, the already much discussed fey "doomed to die" has a cognate in German feig, which originally had the same meaning as in English and is still so used in the Nibelungenlied, but has shifted to meaning "timid, cowardly, craven" in Modern German - quite the opposite of Tolkien's fey. Diachronic semantics is a funny thing. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

03-21-2011, 02:59 PM	#66
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,530	Parakeet, Hammond and Scull's Lord of the Rings - A readers companion includes explanation of unusual vocabulary as well as many useful references and insights. It has pagination for 3 and single volumes but superficially your pages do seem different however given that the notes follow the text and are divided into identically named chapters it should still work. I wonder if it is just because I have been reading Tolkien so long that most of these words don't seem strange? Maybe not in all cases though some may be specifically British usage... like fell in the geographical sense. Brake is used locally to me to refer to gorse thickets. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace