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03-07-2007, 12:11 PM | #41 | ||
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03-07-2007, 12:22 PM | #42 | |
Shadowed Prince
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Bear in mind that Gollum came close to repentance. Appendix B, 11 March, 3019:
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Also... who really admires / wants to be like Gollum? |
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03-07-2007, 12:23 PM | #43 | ||||
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Many villify the video game industry for peddling games based on violence, but only a tiny handful of people who play said games are violent and these are people who you find were usually disturbed to begin with. Even those who supposedly only like thoroughly 'wholesome' things who are disturbed are perfectly capable of turning those 'wholesome' things into sickness, as shown by the sicko who visited my blog this week or the priests and pastors found guilty of crimes against children. Being into good or bad characters has absolutely no bearing on a person's intentions. Quote:
There's one bad guy who is utterly repellent, more so than anything you'll find in Tolkien, but who has turned out to be some weird kind of anti-hero to decent people the world over. Hannibal Lecter. In the novel Hannibal we see him on the loose, up to his old tricks, but when the other gang of bad guys are about to feed him to the man-eating pigs we're hoping against hope that he gets free. Even Clarice Starling, his nemesis hopes that he gets free. Bear in mind that this guy is a pure sociopath, someone beyond all hope of reason, beyond cure, he is as close to pure evil as you could hope to get in this world. He east people's faces! But we want him to get away! Quote:
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03-07-2007, 12:29 PM | #44 | |
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She's also a Christian. And is delightfully eccentric and kind. Gollum repents by falling into the cracks of doom, and he is almost there before that stage until as tgwbs says, he is driven away from it. He is consumed by the Ring, so we just can't say for sure he failed to repent as he was out of his mind.
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03-07-2007, 12:56 PM | #45 | |||||
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03-07-2007, 01:02 PM | #46 | |
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03-07-2007, 01:05 PM | #47 | ||
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03-07-2007, 01:20 PM | #48 |
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
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Another *example* is overkill, but my willpower is lacking, too...
(I apologize for this being all over the place...I tend to ramble and think aloud in my posts. Hence the over use of ellipses. Also, apologies for responding only generally to other's posts. There's too much for me to pick out specifics.) I think I can easily be said to be one who perhaps takes her fascination with evil characters to "another level," as I have roleplayed numerous very nassssty evil characters just here on the Barrow-Downs, and I've done more with evil characters elsewhere, as well. I am a Catholic (though I must say, I disagree with the Church on a lot of things, and I have many beliefs that coincide more with Buddhism than Catholicism), and regardless of my faith, I am a person who believes very strongly in my morals. I have also been deemed a little "Goth" by many. I find the exploration of an evil mind, particularly a fictional evil mind, to be quite interesting, and so I love doing it in my roleplaying. In both my reading and writing, I mean to escape. Sometimes my escape is into the mind of a valiant hero with a pristine soul...other times it's into the mind of a...well, a really really nasty jerk. Sometimes I jump back and forth between the two. The reality is I'm somewhere in between the two, because frankly no one is perfect. What it boils down to is that I think all people tend to be very interested in what they're not. Everyone does a little "roleplaying." Everyone daydreams. Why? Because none of us are perfectly in love with ourselves (People who are "in love with themselves" superficially not being what I'm talking about...nor is that the goal I'm talking about; more talking about idealistic self-actualization.). Is that "morally wrong?" Perhaps part of why I have only read LotR fully once is actually because of how little there is about the baddies. Maybe I'm missing some exploration into Sauron's psyche. Even if not for something just to enjoy in and of itself, then maybe just for deeper reason for wanting the good guys to kick his butt. I think most people have an in-born sense of that whole "good triumphs over evil" stuff, regardless of what we deem to be "good" or "bad." Human beings on the whole are really very resilient, both physically and emotionally. Much more than we will give ourselves credit for, I think. So many of us - dare I say most? - have no problem dabbling in the *evil* mindset. Besides, even if we're pessimistic about the real world, in Middle-earth we know the good guys always win. Exploring the "dark side" intellectually is fun. You can even see if from a spiritual sort of view and see it as a way to deal with the "evil within us." We (general "we," and not necessarily the collective whole) delve into the mind of someone who we can look at and say is "evil," see their reasons for what they do, look at how they destroy themselves and others...all that jazz. We can understand their desire for power and the like, and considering we all know what anger and hatred is like to some degree, we can even begin to understand their reasons for destroying people, creatures, and things. Does that mean we're giving *insert really evil dude/dudette here* a thumbs up? No, not necessarily. Would I invite Morgoth to dinner? Maybe; I'd just keep count of the silverware. As a side note - I think I can easily admire Gollum's resilience. The fact that after all that time under the effects of the Ring he still had some sort of humanity to him is astounding. And do remember that this is a magical Ring, and beyond even Catholicism's outlook on *the work of the Devil* in everyday temptation. |
03-07-2007, 01:23 PM | #49 | ||
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However, if you insist that you have no burden of proof whatsoever, I will point that there is no known conditioning of human nature that necessarily drives a person to action based on a certain liking he has. Simply having a liking does not imply that the liking will translate into intention, which will translate into action. If you know of any such law of human nature, please provide it. What I have argued from the begining is that if morality is defined as chosing between good and evil in any situation, then <<the argument that "chosing evil in fictional settings is somehow good or morally acceptable" is false>> is a truism.
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03-07-2007, 01:38 PM | #50 |
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
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A person who "likes" Morgoth isn't "choosing evil," they're choosing to be (or they just happen to be) entertained by an evil character - entertained whether they just find him/her amusing, exciting, or even intellectually stimulating, etc., or all of the above.
Edit: I can see where you might say that crazy people who get really into the evil mindset could be "immoral," but then you have the argument of whether or not someone is actually choosing evil simply in a fantasy or if they're only actually choosing evil if they act on whatever "immoral/evil fantasy" they might have. Perhaps that's where the disagreement really lies? Or simply people are talking about two different sides of the spectrum.... Last edited by Durelin; 03-07-2007 at 01:41 PM. |
03-07-2007, 01:47 PM | #51 | ||
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03-07-2007, 01:53 PM | #52 | ||
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Well, to put it simply: is thinking about killing someone evil, or is it only evil if you actually do it? And, is it evil in the same way? And...there are probably innumerable questions involved in that. |
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03-07-2007, 02:02 PM | #53 | ||||
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I would also consider Tolkien's own statements: Quote:
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 03-07-2007 at 02:07 PM. |
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03-07-2007, 02:30 PM | #54 | |||
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03-07-2007, 02:59 PM | #55 | |||
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03-07-2007, 03:48 PM | #56 |
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Perhaps there is some confusing of the primary & secondary worlds here. One cannot simply apply primary world rules & values to a secondary world unthinkingly. There is a dynamic interaction/inter-relationship between both sides in the story, & both sides are, in their way 'attractive'. Overwhelming destructive power touches something deep in us. I remember the old PBS series 'Joseph Cambell & the Power of Myth', where Bill Moyers recalled an account from someone who had witnessed the fire-bombing of Dresden first hand. When asked about his reaction he simply said 'It was sublime'.
Now, he wasn't using the word 'sublime' in in any moral sense, or implying that it was 'good' (Dictionary definition: impressing the mind with a sense of grandeur or power; inspiring awe, veneration, etc.: Switzerland has sublime scenery. supreme or outstanding;complete; absolute; utter). Hence, in this sense it is perfectly understandable that the 'power' displayed by the Evil side (personified in Morgoth slaying the trees, Sauron bringing Numenor to its spectacular end , Smaug blasting apart Esgaroth, Morgoth's massive armies blitzing Gondolin, etc) will be 'attractive' to some readers - not because they 'admire' the motives of the enemy, but because witnessing such pure & overwhelming power unleashed is awe inspiring. Suddenly order is replaced by chaos & destruction, fire, noise, light, & a sudden silence. One is over-awed & the only word for it is 'sublime'. But this is not a 'moral' issue. It is a human one. To witness overwhelming, uncontrolled power is to be confronted with one's own smallness & insignificance & at the same time to be opened up to something 'greater'. Morgoth & his minions are, in this sense, sublime figures, & its easy to feel awe at their actions. Yet, as I stated, it is dangerous to confuse the primary & secondary worlds. One can feel awe for a 'sublime' figure like Morgoth or Smaug but this does not imply that one would feel a similar awe for Hitler. Anyone who thinks one would has little understanding of human psychology. |
03-07-2007, 04:00 PM | #57 | ||
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03-07-2007, 04:01 PM | #58 | |
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03-07-2007, 04:05 PM | #59 | |
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Besides, this is getting boring. I don't come on here to dance on a pinhead as the Downs saying goes. I just came here to defend the many many Tolkien fans and members of this very site who happen to get a kick out of the bad guys and are perfectly harmless and decent people. I need no more 'proof' of their being good people than that I know for a fact that they are,
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03-07-2007, 04:29 PM | #60 | ||||
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03-07-2007, 04:34 PM | #61 | |
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And how many people who play act at loving Orcs are actually thieves or vandals? I'd say the number must be so small as to be able to be counted on the fingers of Frodo's damaged hand!
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03-07-2007, 04:41 PM | #62 | ||
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03-07-2007, 04:53 PM | #63 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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In the end though we're dealing with a work of fantasy & emotional response over-rides moral judgement - if the story is effective. If a reader can step back & 'analyse' the story in terms of what is 'moral' & 'immoral' the story cannot really be working in the way it should. The reader may feel happiness or sadness, fear, horror, shock, joy, anger etc. but if the reader is so 'detatched' from the events of the story that he/she can undertake a moral & ethical analysis of the story either the story is unengaging or the reader has no imagination. This is why I think attempting a moral evalutaion of the reader based on their emotional response to the events of the story is a dead end. |
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03-07-2007, 04:59 PM | #64 | |
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Perhaps language is tripping us up here.
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Would the 'destructive' orc have been a destructive person in real life even if they had never taken on the persona of one of Tolkien's monstors? ...probably so. The basic problem undoubtedly lies within....the orc facade is one of many outer trappings they might have used to express something within that is basically wrong, but they could easily have used another persona, and the end results would be the same.
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03-07-2007, 05:21 PM | #65 | ||
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03-07-2007, 06:06 PM | #66 | |
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You really cannot tell a reader that his (or her) analysis of a story arises from his (or her) lack of imagination or the story's lack of entertainment, because you can't get into a person's head. Without knowing what prompts the analysis, you cannot substitute your own theory for its genesis and assume it pertains truly in all cases. After all, for all any of us know, a reader might simply be playing with the text, delighting himself (or herself) with how many ways he (or she) may find to engage his (etc.) mind with it. Observation concluded. You may proceed. (Likely this thread will come to rival the infamous "C" thread, at least for its head-knocking.)
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Ill sing his roots off. Ill sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bźthberry; 03-07-2007 at 06:11 PM. |
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03-08-2007, 02:23 AM | #67 | |
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03-08-2007, 06:03 AM | #68 | |
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As an aside - why can't 'God' tell us that? Simply because there are many 'Gods' and even those who ostensibly share the same God can have huge differences - e.g. many still think homosexuality is immoral whereas their brothers and sisters in the same faith wholeheartedly believe it to be perfectly moral. These kinds of differences are common across all faiths and ideologies. Even when we get into questions of 'violence' there are questions of what morality is. Some tribespeople in New Guinea have been cannibals (and are said to remain cannibals, despite attempts to persuade them away from the practise) and this is a deeply held part of of their morality - the enemy must be consumed in order to achieve a complete victory over him. That kind of morality makes Westerners cringe, but it's a morality all the same, no matter if we feel uncomfortable with it. Even in the West similar differences are thrown up by the question of circumcision. A friend of mine was 'honoured' with an invite to a female ceremony in Tanzania and despite finding this act to be immoral had to go along as this was very much moral in that culture; likewise there has been a storm in the UK after a Jewish baby died following a circumcision with both sides throwing around terms like 'child abuse' and 'religious tradition'. Who's right? I can't say. Nor can you. So in an infinitely less serious circumstance, that of say whether you find Saruman a bit exciting, is it: a. even possible or permissible to say someone is immoral just from whether they like x, y or z character in a book, given that morality cannot be determined at some static point anyway. and b. is it important anyway? Are we just being a little bit silly? I have to say that if anyone from outside the Tolkien community saw this they'd be laughing their heads off. Just how irrelevant and out of touch do we sound? Like it actually matters if you like the literary creations that are Orcs when there are people out there right now engaging in real, genuine and truly frightening acts of cruelty. And we're being asked if we want to tar and feather some ordinary kid for being fond of imaginary characters in a ruddy book! All I'm asking is that we simply Get A Grip.
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03-08-2007, 08:45 AM | #69 |
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I don't think it's at all petty to examine the bad guys. The heroes are extremely heroic, and that's why we love the story, but what makes the bad guy's tick, and why is that fascinating? That's a question worth a discussion thread.
Now granted, I don't root for the bad guys in LotR (at 4' 11" I sympathize a little too much with the hobbits) but I have to admit to a kind of fascination with them. One of the things that really struck me when I read LotR for the first time was how, unlike a lot of other fairy tales, the lines between "good" and "evil" are not quite as defined. The ring works by twisting the weaknesses and desires of each character and bending them to it's own will. The servants of Sauron are not some "other" which we can put in a box and call evil, but a vision of what we could become, a vision of fallen humanity. Sauron's servants are those creatures who simply gave up fighting with themselves and gave in to the lure of the ring. We all know/knew people like that, especially in high school. That's the guy who got sick of constantly trying and failing and so gave up, became a stoner, dropped out of school and now flips burgers somewhere. Recognizing that evil is something we all have in us brings the orcs and goblins and other creatures a lot closer. So those guys, the ones who root for the bad guys, they're not rooting for evil, they're rooting for themselves.
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03-08-2007, 08:49 AM | #70 | |
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I have little reason to worry about it; logically, moral relativism is twice contradicting: it allows for two opposite propositions, p and non-p, to be true (it defeats the very foundation of logic); and second: if there is no single standard to judge the value of a proposition, then even moral relativism has its limits and it naturally implies that other standards, contradicting moral relativism, are true as well. Frankly, moral relativism has no logical standing in a debate. I have no problem drawing a line between concepts which lie upon a continua in the conceptual space - and matters are not as shady in Middle Earth as in the primary world. There, the very essence of Melkor and Sauron is nihilism. I am really curious who would argue that nihilism, utter destruction of everything, could be construed in a moral way. Nihilism itself excludes morality, since it allows for nothing to exist and therefore no distinctions to be made.
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 03-08-2007 at 08:53 AM. |
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03-08-2007, 09:55 AM | #71 |
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Bravo, Raynor, well said indeed.
Can I interject one more thought here (implying that you could say "no" ) -- that just as many here have said, there is far less gray and more black-and-white in Middle-Earth. I can understand someone being intrigued by Saruman or Gollum, who appear to have had struggles with their choices, the spark of good fighting, albeit unsuccessfully, their selfish bent. Such was the case in the end with Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker, a wonderful study into the dynamics of an evil character who repents in the end. I don't think anyone here would object to that. What I believe is causing so much heated verbaige here is the existence of those who don't just appreciate a well-written literary exploration of a character who turns out to be evil (as most of us here do) -- they would BE Sauron or Morgoth if they could -- or, to put it in more real-world terms, they would BE Hitler or Stalin or Hannibal if it was within their ability. The ones who who don't care about others, being supremely consumed with self. In other words, they're not just fascinated by evil -- they embrace it, they emulate it, they take it as a role model. It's that kind of person we don't understand.
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03-08-2007, 11:29 AM | #72 | |
Shadowed Prince
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First, a defence of moral relativism:
1) Raynor, you don't explain your contradictions. However, I presume the first works as follows. The statements "no moral system is better than another" and "moral relativism is the only logical moral system" contradict one another. In reponse to this, moral relativism is not a moral system, it is amoral. It does not say "this is good, this is bad, live your life by these rules." It says "good and bad do not exist, they are unnatural fabrications of the human mind enforced by society." 2) Quote:
To relate this to Tolkien: Viewed from a morally relative, or amoral, perspective, I see no objective evil in supporting evil characters. It's all in the minds of those who are offended. |
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03-08-2007, 12:15 PM | #73 | |
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A tangent of sorts
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03-08-2007, 01:13 PM | #74 | |
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An observation: I'm chucking to myself how the debate seems to have subtly shifted away from people criticising those who just get some fun out of supporting the bad guys into criticising those who take the bad guys as an inspiration for sociopathy. Quite a different thing, and I'd venture to say you're as likely to find someone inspired to acts of sociopathy inspired by Tolkien's bad guys as you are to find a Leprechaun. And nobody would disagree that sociopathic behaviour is bad. Of course, saying that someone who is just into the bad guys and gets some fun out of it is evil or immoral, is actually quite rude to a lot of Downs members, who we know are decent people.
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I aint going to judge others by anyone else's standards, only by my own. I won't be told who to like and who to mark down as 'immoral'. Sorry but the thought just occurred to me that the point of this whole thread is supremely dodgy! The cheek of it! Why should anyone tell me or anyone else which characters we should like and which we should dislike?! Can we not get on to looking at the much more fruitful question of why people like bad guys rather than offending people any further?
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03-08-2007, 01:46 PM | #75 |
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Lal, I truly mean no offense, but either you are missing our points entirely, or you are deliberately ignoring our patient attempts to explain ourselves, twisting our efforts into straw men easier to knock down.
Nowhere have I said nor implied that Tolkien's bad guys inspire people to sociopathy, and I don't think that's the point of the other posters here. The reverse is our real point, that there are sociopaths and near-sociopaths (by far the tiny minority of readers) who empathize with Tolkien's bad guys because those characters are evil. If you are going to debate these matters, please do us the kindness of actually reading what we're saying.
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03-08-2007, 02:32 PM | #76 |
A Mere Boggart
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Here's the thing though. It's not being said that "there are loads of people who like the bad guys and get some fun from them, and tiny, ridiculously small percentage of those might be borderline sociopaths". That would be OK. It's being said that "if you like the bad guys then that suggests you're bit fishy to me".
That's just plain not nice. Nor is it fair. Aside from anything else, is there any balance provided by looking at the equally tiny number of loons who are into Hobbits or Elves? Not all of them will be 100% nice either. Being into the bad guys is not a 'marker' of someone to avoid. So anyway...you agree that just because Johnny or Susan think Orcs are fun and likes to write evil characters in RPGs or maybe habitually goes to conventions dressed as the Witch King or has a Balrog theme on their profile or likes to wind up Elf-heads by acting the minion, it does not mean they are immoral or evil?
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03-08-2007, 03:30 PM | #77 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Of course, the underlying assumption seems to be that good & evil in M-e correspond exactly to good & evil in our world. Yet the morality of M-e is Tolkien's morality. Good & evil in M-e are what Tolkien says they are. But the reader's moral value system may not correspond to Tolkien's - & why should it? Why should the reader simply accept that what Tolkien claims is 'good' is actually 'good' - at least as far as the Primary world is concerned? Tolkien may be the 'God' of M-e (ie the creator & to some extent the sustainer), but in the primary world Tolkien is a man with his own values.
The reader has a right to hold to their own sense of good & evil & apply it to the world of M-e - if they choose to take that approach to the story. If the reader prefers the 'evil' characters over the 'good' that is simply their take on things. It seems to me that there are those whose moral value system corresponds more or less exactly with Tolkien's own & who therefore feel that they can sit in judgement on the moral value system of other readers. One may love Tolkien's creation, his style, his inventiveness, be fascinated by his languages, his creativity, admire the dedication required in producing what he did. But... One does not have to accept his position on good & evil. One can take any approach, side with any character. To think Sauron was cool & Frodo was a jerk loser is fine & neither better nor worse morally than to hold the opposite view. To think Sauron is cool does not imply one thinks Hitler was cool. A reader who cheered when Morgoth's hordes obliterated Gondolin would not necessarily have cheered when the Twin Towers came down. One may find Sauron cool & not feel Hitler was cool because Sauron & Hitler are not the same - one is a character in a story while the other was a sick & evil human being & Gondolin is not New York. |
03-08-2007, 04:08 PM | #78 | |||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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If the only people who disagree that <<delighting in evil is immoral>> are the same people who consider that <<there is nothing wrong, evil, or immoral about rape, or unnecessary harm, or Melkorian-style nihilism>>, then, frankly, I will happily rest my case. If it is only all the other people [the ones who consider that <<rape, or unnecessary harm, or Melkorian-style nihilism are wrong, evil, immoral, in and of themselvs>>] agree that delighting in evil is immoral, then I am satisfied. I need not go any further than that. Quote:
This whole discussion has started when you claimed that there is nothing wrong with liking bad guys because they are fictional. If you make this statement in an open debate, then you must be ready to have it challenged. The curiosity of this is that, as pointed previously, you implied the existence of an absolute moral value: "it's definitely wrong to say they are wrong for that as it's a free choice." and "We don't fail to see that at all [that "good" is good for all"], but when confronted, you resort to an argument that "there isn't in fact an absolute moral scale", which denies the previous "ok". Unless you qualify your statement as a purely personal position, then it can only be naturally read as presuming an absolute morality. I hope you see the contradiction. Quote:
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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03-08-2007, 05:00 PM | #79 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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I'm afraid I want no more part of this. It's offensive, frankly. I will not 'justify', 'prove', 'qualify' or otherwise anything I have said because I am simply defending the right of people not to be insulted for the things in Tolkien which they personally find entertaining.
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Gordon's alive!
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03-08-2007, 05:27 PM | #80 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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Quote:
If you refuse to qualify your statements and clarify contradictions between your posts, then I guess discussion is indeed impossible.
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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