morning-evening Elf question - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Luinëcolloien · 10-05-2002, 08:58 AM

Okay, I know this may seem strange, and forgive me if I'm posting in the wrong topic-room. But here goes.
Well, remember how Gimli said if Eomund did not declare Galadriel the fairest of all ladies he would have to fight him, or something? Well, in the end, it turns out that Eomund declares Arwen fairest of all. And then Gimli says something like (I don't have my book on hand, forgive me) "Well then, you have chosen evening and I have chosen morning.", meaning Galadriel I suppose was morning and Arwen was evening. Did this 'morning-evening' thing apply to all elves? Just wondering, sorry if I seem confusing. Please give me your thoughts, thanks for reading!

Beren87 · 10-05-2002, 09:03 AM

Umm, no, i don't think so. I pretty sure it just means that they picked the two most beautiful parts of the day.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

Luinëcolloien · 10-05-2002, 09:09 AM

Okay, thanks. I think I get it now.

Gandalf_theGrey · 10-05-2002, 09:15 AM

* enters smoking a sociable bowl of pipeweed *

Hullo Luinëcolloien,

To my understanding, Galadriel represented the first arrival of the Elves to Middle Earth (morning), while Arwen Evenstar represented the final departure of the Elves from Middle Earth.

Though there are still some precious few Elves to be found here, if one knows where and how to look.

I'll see you in the Barrow Downs chat. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

* bows *

Gandalf the Grey

Beren87 · 10-05-2002, 09:32 AM

Yes, Gandalf, that is correct. However, I belive that Gimili was purely talking in terms of beauty, to me it really wasn't an elven history statement. Just that they pcked the two most beautiful girls in middle-earth, comparable only to the morning and evening.

Tarthang · 10-05-2002, 10:26 AM

I am going to add to Gandalf theGrey's line of reasoning.
Galadriel was the oldest living Noldi on ME. As such she can be compared to the Morning, having come to ME at a time when the Noldor were at their height of glory and power, and is representative of those times from the first age.
Arwen on the other hand is from a time when the power and glory of the Noldor had all but faded and disapperaed from ME. And is compared to the Evening, or the ending times of the Noldor on ME.
Interpreted as metaphor of night following day in regard to the presence and influence of the Noldor upon ME.
Or, maybe it was just that Galadriel had light colored hair, making one think of the morning. While Arwen had dark colored hair making one think of the evening if not night, when light is fading to darkness. Especially when compared sise to side.

hobbitlass · 10-05-2002, 10:42 AM

I too think it to be a metaphor for the elves rather than on the ladies' physical appearance because in the last page of the chapter "The Steward and the King", Frodo says to Gandalf about seeing Arwen Evenstar, "At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!"

Luinëcolloien · 10-05-2002, 10:47 AM

Hullo Gandalf!
And thank you for your statement. The meaning behind it is now clear to me. Thank you again! *bows*

Nilwen · 10-05-2002, 11:13 AM

Very good reasoning all,but way would Gimli,a dwarf,be up on elvish history?Did dwarves and elves not get along before Gimli made friends?Maybe I am confused.

Birdland · 10-05-2002, 01:45 PM

Nilwen - Gimli would be very aware of Elven history, being the son of a noble dwarf. Also much of Elven history is the history of the dwarves as well. That's why they dislike each other so much.

So yes, Gimli would be very aware of Galadriel's history.

Dwalin · 10-05-2002, 02:21 PM

Excellent reasoning, everyone. But I always took it to mean that Galdriel's beauty was more radient while Arwen's beauty was more subtle, not that Arwen was any less beautiful. The difference is in type of beauty not degree of beauty; the morning is bright and warm while the evening is softly lit and cool, yet both are equally beautiful.

Orome · 10-05-2002, 09:08 PM

but every thing in the books lead the reader to believe that Gimli knew very little about galadrial before he met her

**lindil** · 10-06-2002, 04:33 AM

I have always taken it to refer to Galadriel's hair being blonde/bright coloured ='s daytime.

and Arwen's being dark ='s evening/night.

charly · 10-06-2002, 05:21 AM

I agree with lindil. I don´t think Gimli would go deep down in elven history- even if he knows it- , he´s just looking for something to describe the two.
Apart from that, I came up with this explaination: Galadriel is Arwen´s grandmother, right? And moring, day, evening, comes well with grandmother, mother, daughter, doesn´t it? The morning is the first "generation" of the day. the evening the third "generation". And even if the day is past-as Arwen´s mom is- we do remember the morning(Galadiel)in the evening(Arwen). Get it??

Eowyn of Ithilien · 10-06-2002, 06:03 AM

The quote in question is: "You have chosen the Evening; but my love is given to the Morning. And my heart forebodes that soon it will pass away for ever." Although Arwen is dark and Galadriel fair, the last sentence clearly indicates that Gimli is speaking of them as representing the dawn and dusk of the Elves of Middle Earth: Galadriel will pass, and with her goes the morning of the Elves, and only in twilight (Arwen) will they live the rest of their days...this was the price of the War of the Rings.

**lindil** · 10-06-2002, 06:14 AM

Eowyn, all i see Gimili doing is extending the metaphor further, not giving the origianl morn/eve an exsclusive meaning.

It just happens to be that the morning [Galadriel] will pass away.

I see it as a simple case of Yin [ arwen ] and Yang [galadriel].

What is amazing about JRRT's writing is that the metaphor CAN be extended to so many of the above meanings.

Beren87 · 10-06-2002, 09:24 AM

Really, it is a metaphor, but I don't think Gimili would have ment it that way. He was simply stating.

Everlen · 10-06-2002, 02:37 PM

The thought of it being deeper than beauty never entered my mind before I read this, so I think Tolkein meant for it to be that Gimili was simply saying that Galadriel's beauty was light, soft, and golden like the morning and Arwen's was dark, striking, and sharp. That's how I have always imagined it. But that is a good observation. You guys think deeply... I like it! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Reyna Evergreen · 10-06-2002, 02:46 PM

Yay! This post is incredible, and I've been following it for some time and believe it is time for me to jump in.

A agree that Gimli was referring to their beauty as the two most beautiful parts of the day. Galadriel has fair complections, reminding him of the rays of light pouring from the heavens in the early hours of morning. Arwen's are more deep, reminding him of the mysteries locked in the darkness.

All signs point towards this, but I have a thorn in my foot. When was it decieded that Galadriel was Day, and Arwen was Night? (metaphoricly, always) Gimli and Éomund might have been discussing about their personalities aswell.

Arwen is light-hearted and loves to shine and be warm; reminding of the day. Galadriel's power runs deeper than most think, and he mind is cunning and sharp reminding of the night.

So that just gives more of a thought on how it could go both ways...

Luinëcolloien · 10-06-2002, 06:26 PM

I agree with the metaphor that Arwen being Evening represented the end of the Noldor in ME, and Galdriel the beginning, but something just occured to me. I thought Arwen and Luthien both looked alike, therefor making Luthien of 'evening' beaty. However..she was one of the first Elves, correct? Please give me your thoughts, thanks!

Morgul Queen · 10-07-2002, 06:23 PM

I think it is just chosn to represent that while boyh are beautiful they are beautiful in opposite ways hence morning and night.

10-05-2002, 08:58 AM	#1
Luinëcolloien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31	morning-evening Elf question Okay, I know this may seem strange, and forgive me if I'm posting in the wrong topic-room. But here goes. Well, remember how Gimli said if Eomund did not declare Galadriel the fairest of all ladies he would have to fight him, or something? Well, in the end, it turns out that Eomund declares Arwen fairest of all. And then Gimli says something like (I don't have my book on hand, forgive me) "Well then, you have chosen evening and I have chosen morning.", meaning Galadriel I suppose was morning and Arwen was evening. Did this 'morning-evening' thing apply to all elves? Just wondering, sorry if I seem confusing. Please give me your thoughts, thanks for reading! __________________ (·.(·.·¤·.·).·) «Luinëcolloien» (.·(.··¤··.)·.)

10-05-2002, 09:09 AM	#3
Luinëcolloien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31	Okay, thanks. I think I get it now. __________________ (·.(·.·¤·.·).·) «Luinëcolloien» (.·(.··¤··.)·.)

10-05-2002, 10:42 AM	#7
hobbitlass Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: next to the fire keeping warm Posts: 471	I too think it to be a metaphor for the elves rather than on the ladies' physical appearance because in the last page of the chapter "The Steward and the King", Frodo says to Gandalf about seeing Arwen Evenstar, "At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!" __________________ Just because a person has the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

10-05-2002, 10:47 AM	#8
Luinëcolloien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31	Hullo Gandalf! And thank you for your statement. The meaning behind it is now clear to me. Thank you again! bows __________________ (·.(·.·¤·.·).·) «Luinëcolloien» (.·(.··¤··.)·.)

10-05-2002, 11:13 AM	#9
Nilwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Fangorn Posts: 82	Very good reasoning all,but way would Gimli,a dwarf,be up on elvish history?Did dwarves and elves not get along before Gimli made friends?Maybe I am confused. __________________ "It's a shortcut, it's supposed to be hard... if it was easy it would be 'the way'."

10-05-2002, 09:03 AM	#2
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	Umm, no, i don't think so. I pretty sure it just means that they picked the two most beautiful parts of the day. [ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

10-05-2002, 09:15 AM	#4
Gandalf_theGrey Visionary Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 633	* enters smoking a sociable bowl of pipeweed * Hullo Luinëcolloien, To my understanding, Galadriel represented the first arrival of the Elves to Middle Earth (morning), while Arwen Evenstar represented the final departure of the Elves from Middle Earth. Though there are still some precious few Elves to be found here, if one knows where and how to look. I'll see you in the Barrow Downs chat. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] * bows * Gandalf the Grey

10-05-2002, 09:32 AM	#5
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	Yes, Gandalf, that is correct. However, I belive that Gimili was purely talking in terms of beauty, to me it really wasn't an elven history statement. Just that they pcked the two most beautiful girls in middle-earth, comparable only to the morning and evening.

10-05-2002, 10:26 AM	#6
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	I am going to add to Gandalf theGrey's line of reasoning. Galadriel was the oldest living Noldi on ME. As such she can be compared to the Morning, having come to ME at a time when the Noldor were at their height of glory and power, and is representative of those times from the first age. Arwen on the other hand is from a time when the power and glory of the Noldor had all but faded and disapperaed from ME. And is compared to the Evening, or the ending times of the Noldor on ME. Interpreted as metaphor of night following day in regard to the presence and influence of the Noldor upon ME. Or, maybe it was just that Galadriel had light colored hair, making one think of the morning. While Arwen had dark colored hair making one think of the evening if not night, when light is fading to darkness. Especially when compared sise to side.

10-05-2002, 01:45 PM	#10
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Nilwen - Gimli would be very aware of Elven history, being the son of a noble dwarf. Also much of Elven history is the history of the dwarves as well. That's why they dislike each other so much. So yes, Gimli would be very aware of Galadriel's history.

10-05-2002, 02:21 PM	#11
Dwalin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 18	Excellent reasoning, everyone. But I always took it to mean that Galdriel's beauty was more radient while Arwen's beauty was more subtle, not that Arwen was any less beautiful. The difference is in type of beauty not degree of beauty; the morning is bright and warm while the evening is softly lit and cool, yet both are equally beautiful. __________________ "A man who flies from his fear may find he has only taken a shortcut to meet it.”

10-05-2002, 09:08 PM	#12
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	but every thing in the books lead the reader to believe that Gimli knew very little about galadrial before he met her

10-06-2002, 04:33 AM	#13
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	I have always taken it to refer to Galadriel's hair being blonde/bright coloured ='s daytime. and Arwen's being dark ='s evening/night. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-06-2002, 05:21 AM	#14
charly Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: middle earth, dork Posts: 84	I agree with lindil. I don´t think Gimli would go deep down in elven history- even if he knows it- , he´s just looking for something to describe the two. Apart from that, I came up with this explaination: Galadriel is Arwen´s grandmother, right? And moring, day, evening, comes well with grandmother, mother, daughter, doesn´t it? The morning is the first "generation" of the day. the evening the third "generation". And even if the day is past-as Arwen´s mom is- we do remember the morning(Galadiel)in the evening(Arwen). Get it?? __________________ "Whom do you serve, scum?"

10-06-2002, 06:03 AM	#15
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	The quote in question is: "You have chosen the Evening; but my love is given to the Morning. And my heart forebodes that soon it will pass away for ever." Although Arwen is dark and Galadriel fair, the last sentence clearly indicates that Gimli is speaking of them as representing the dawn and dusk of the Elves of Middle Earth: Galadriel will pass, and with her goes the morning of the Elves, and only in twilight (Arwen) will they live the rest of their days...this was the price of the War of the Rings. __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

10-06-2002, 06:14 AM	#16
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	Eowyn, all i see Gimili doing is extending the metaphor further, not giving the origianl morn/eve an exsclusive meaning. It just happens to be that the morning [Galadriel] will pass away. I see it as a simple case of Yin [ arwen ] and Yang [galadriel]. What is amazing about JRRT's writing is that the metaphor CAN be extended to so many of the above meanings. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-06-2002, 09:24 AM	#17
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	Really, it is a metaphor, but I don't think Gimili would have ment it that way. He was simply stating.

10-06-2002, 02:37 PM	#18
Everlen Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: usually lost in daydreams Posts: 20	The thought of it being deeper than beauty never entered my mind before I read this, so I think Tolkein meant for it to be that Gimili was simply saying that Galadriel's beauty was light, soft, and golden like the morning and Arwen's was dark, striking, and sharp. That's how I have always imagined it. But that is a good observation. You guys think deeply... I like it! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

10-06-2002, 02:46 PM	#19
Reyna Evergreen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Canada Posts: 69	Yay! This post is incredible, and I've been following it for some time and believe it is time for me to jump in. A agree that Gimli was referring to their beauty as the two most beautiful parts of the day. Galadriel has fair complections, reminding him of the rays of light pouring from the heavens in the early hours of morning. Arwen's are more deep, reminding him of the mysteries locked in the darkness. All signs point towards this, but I have a thorn in my foot. When was it decieded that Galadriel was Day, and Arwen was Night? (metaphoricly, always) Gimli and Éomund might have been discussing about their personalities aswell. Arwen is light-hearted and loves to shine and be warm; reminding of the day. Galadriel's power runs deeper than most think, and he mind is cunning and sharp reminding of the night. So that just gives more of a thought on how it could go both ways... __________________ "Utúlie 'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie 'n aurë!" The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, day has come!

10-06-2002, 06:26 PM	#20
Luinëcolloien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31	I agree with the metaphor that Arwen being Evening represented the end of the Noldor in ME, and Galdriel the beginning, but something just occured to me. I thought Arwen and Luthien both looked alike, therefor making Luthien of 'evening' beaty. However..she was one of the first Elves, correct? Please give me your thoughts, thanks! __________________ (·.(·.·¤·.·).·) «Luinëcolloien» (.·(.··¤··.)·.)

10-07-2002, 06:23 PM	#21
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	I think it is just chosn to represent that while boyh are beautiful they are beautiful in opposite ways hence morning and night. __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!