A Christmas Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Essex · 12-25-2006, 02:57 AM

Happy Christmas everyone.

I have a question.

What was the significance of the Fellowship leaving Rivendell on 'Christmas Day'?

Happy New Year too!

Raynor · 12-25-2006, 05:06 AM

Ok, this is going to be a long one:

Quote:

Hammond and Scull's Reader Companion, page 264, notes on the Chapter "The Ring Goes South"

It was a cold grey near the end of December:
According to the Tale ofe years, it is 25t December 1418. As this chapter was first written, the Company departed on 24 November, but Tolkien decided to move the event later in the year. "Too much takes place in winter, he noted. "They should remain longer in Rivendell. This would have additional advantage of allowing Elrond's scouts and messengers far longer time. He should discover Black Riders have gone back. Frodo should not start until say Dec. 24th". Christopher Tolkien comments that "it seems likely that 24 December was chosen "numerically" one month later than the existing date... and it was changed to 25 December to make new dates agree "numerically" with the existing time-structure (since November has 30 days but December 31) [before Tolkien introduced the concept of thirty-day months in the Shire Reckoning]" (The Treason of Isengard pp. 422-3).

Hery Resnik reported that during an interview with Tolkien in early March 1966 he had commented to Tolkien on the date of the departure from Rivendell, and on certain aspects of Frodo which seemed to parallel Jesus Christ. To the question "How do you feel about the idea that people might identify Frodo with Christ?" Tolkien replied:

Quote:

Well, you know, there've been saviours before; it is a very common thing. There've been heroes and patriots who have given up for their countries. You don't have to be Christian to believe that somebody has to die to save something. As a matter of fact, December 25th occured strictly by accident, and I left it in to show that this was not a Christian myth anyhow. It was purely unimportant date, and I though, Well there it is, just an accident. ["An interview with Tolkien, Niekas 18 (Spring 1967), p. 43]

In Nomenclature, however, Tolkien wrote that:

Quote:

the midwinter festival as not an Elvish custom, and so would not have been celebrated at RIvendell. The Fellowship, however, left on Dec. 25, which [date] had then no significance, since the Yule, or its equivalent, as tehn the last day of the eyar, and the first of the next year ["Yule"=the two Yule days between 30 December and 1 January in the Hobbit calendar, which were holidays and times of feasting]. Though Dec. 25 (setting out) and March 25 (accomplishment of quest) were intentionally chosen by me.

The Might · 12-25-2006, 06:26 AM

Merry Christmas to all...
Anyway, really good post Raynor, didn't know about that...
Just wanted to point out that there is another date close to the number 24 - Frodo left Bag End on September 23rd, however this might have very well only been a coincidence, since his birthday was the 22nd.

A date which however does very well fit the pattern created by Tolkien is 25th October 3018, the day that, at the Council of Elrond, Frodo volunteers to take the Ring to Mordor.

MatthewM · 12-25-2006, 10:48 PM

Merry Christmas to you all as well

!

Cheers as well for the departure of The Fellowship!

As far as the significance of the date...as Tolkien states two completely opposite reasonings for the date as Raynor points out, it's hard to say. I'm going to have to say Tolkien knew in the back of his mind why he chose this date, and he probably smiled when he realized it fit into his Middle-earth time.

Lalwendë · 12-26-2006, 05:19 AM

Raynor has saved me some time there as I would have put those same quotes on! It does seem that Tolkien did not intend the dates to mean anything deeper, and he was greatly concerned with dates, moon cycles and so on being 'correct' in his work, so this was the most likely reason that he altered dates of events. His point about not wanting all the action to take place in winter is a solid and simple reason - had he allowed this to happen it would simply have restricted his choices for the story! And there is something poetic about moving from winter to spring as they move east and south and we learn more about Middle-earth on the journey. But obviously when he realised the other significance of the dates (in as far as they translate from the Shire calendar to ours) he was probably quite pleased!

Raynor · 12-26-2006, 07:22 AM

Then again, we should consider that the Nomenclature was intended by the author to be an official guide, while Resnik' account is second hand. From what I figured, both versions appear not long apart from each other, which further puts the article under question mark - if it was the same year, I doubt Tolkien's memory or view on matters would alter in months. In terms of official weight, the Nomenclature should be second only to LotR (if not equal).

Frodo Baggins · 12-26-2006, 07:41 PM

Merry Christmas, Everyone!

In line with Lalwende, also keep in mind the symbolism of moving from winter to spring. When they Fellowship left in the dead of the year (i.e. near the solstice) Middle-earth itself was in great danger and near annihilation by the plans of Sauron as well as Saruman. In the Spring, when the ring is destroyed, it is a rebirth in a way. The new beginnings of Spring go along with a new beginning in the Fourth Age, a time now free from Sauron.

Just my thoughts.

And Tolkien may just have randomly picked December 25 because it gave the Fellowship more time to prepare and the scouts to return. Since Yule was not an observance of the Elves, to them it was just another day. Although I have to admit it is their loss. Life without Christmas is just not a fun idea.

12-25-2006, 02:57 AM	#1
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	A Christmas Thread Happy Christmas everyone. I have a question. What was the significance of the Fellowship leaving Rivendell on 'Christmas Day'? Happy New Year too!

12-25-2006, 06:26 AM	#3
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,287	Merry Christmas to all... Anyway, really good post Raynor, didn't know about that... Just wanted to point out that there is another date close to the number 24 - Frodo left Bag End on September 23rd, however this might have very well only been a coincidence, since his birthday was the 22nd. A date which however does very well fit the pattern created by Tolkien is 25th October 3018, the day that, at the Council of Elrond, Frodo volunteers to take the Ring to Mordor. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-25-2006, 10:48 PM	#4
MatthewM Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 627	Merry Christmas to you all as well ! Cheers as well for the departure of The Fellowship! As far as the significance of the date...as Tolkien states two completely opposite reasonings for the date as Raynor points out, it's hard to say. I'm going to have to say Tolkien knew in the back of his mind why he chose this date, and he probably smiled when he realized it fit into his Middle-earth time. __________________ "Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring

12-26-2006, 05:19 AM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,814	Raynor has saved me some time there as I would have put those same quotes on! It does seem that Tolkien did not intend the dates to mean anything deeper, and he was greatly concerned with dates, moon cycles and so on being 'correct' in his work, so this was the most likely reason that he altered dates of events. His point about not wanting all the action to take place in winter is a solid and simple reason - had he allowed this to happen it would simply have restricted his choices for the story! And there is something poetic about moving from winter to spring as they move east and south and we learn more about Middle-earth on the journey. But obviously when he realised the other significance of the dates (in as far as they translate from the Shire calendar to ours) he was probably quite pleased! __________________ Gordon's alive!

12-26-2006, 07:22 AM	#6
Raynor Eagle of the Star Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sarmisegethuza Posts: 1,058	Then again, we should consider that the Nomenclature was intended by the author to be an official guide, while Resnik' account is second hand. From what I figured, both versions appear not long apart from each other, which further puts the article under question mark - if it was the same year, I doubt Tolkien's memory or view on matters would alter in months. In terms of official weight, the Nomenclature should be second only to LotR (if not equal). __________________ "May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free."

12-26-2006, 07:41 PM	#7
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Merry Christmas, Everyone! In line with Lalwende, also keep in mind the symbolism of moving from winter to spring. When they Fellowship left in the dead of the year (i.e. near the solstice) Middle-earth itself was in great danger and near annihilation by the plans of Sauron as well as Saruman. In the Spring, when the ring is destroyed, it is a rebirth in a way. The new beginnings of Spring go along with a new beginning in the Fourth Age, a time now free from Sauron. Just my thoughts. And Tolkien may just have randomly picked December 25 because it gave the Fellowship more time to prepare and the scouts to return. Since Yule was not an observance of the Elves, to them it was just another day. Although I have to admit it is their loss. Life without Christmas is just not a fun idea. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

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