The Doom of Men - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Grey Ship · 01-01-2002, 08:43 AM

What are the Doom of Men? When Aragorn dies, he says to Arwen that she must sail into the west. Could that be possible, if there where any grey ships left? Can half elves who choses mortality go to the West? I dont quite understand what Aragorn says (and does) at this chapter in his life wen he dies.

red · 01-01-2002, 08:49 AM

The Doom of Men is to depart Middle-earth when they die. That is unlike Elves whose spirits remain in Middle-earth even if they die. I will leave the second part of your question to someone else more knowledgeable.

-réd

Luineglin · 01-01-2002, 12:49 PM

he says that they have given him the gift of long life and now he gives it back freely. as to the half elf thing when she chose to become mortal and stay in the world when her father,elrond, went into the west she became mortal and subject to their fate and left middle-earth forever when she died. that is why it was a parting that was so sad and bitter.

Elrian · 01-02-2002, 04:29 AM

Most spirits of both races go to Mandos in Valinor after they die, the spirits of Elves can take shape again but must remain in the West(Glorfindel was the only known exception to this), Men's spirits left Mandos to somewhere outside of Arda. Then there are some spirits like ourselves who do not wish to go to Mandos but remain in Middle Earth, to haunt places like the Barrows.

Luineglin · 01-02-2002, 09:02 AM

yeah but i wonder where they go do they go into the darkness i mean where i know this is Eru's gift but where do they go.

Telchar · 01-02-2002, 11:57 AM

Who knows where the Fea (souls) of men goes? Mandos? - Manwë? - at least they havent reveled it to anybody. Much can be read about the doom of Men in The history of Middle-earth Vol. 10.

Mannish tradition in the earlier ages tells us that Men did not originally consider themselves to be born mortal - but that mortallity was a divine intervention by Eru, because of Mans preliminary Fall - Mannich tradition says that Men worshipped the dark lord Melkor before any of them had yet died - wherefore Eru altered his first desing conserning Men - and made them mortal. This can easily be interpreted as a punishment for the Fall, BUT as Iluvatar said to men 'ye shal be mortal and ye shall come before me and see who is the Master - he that you call the Lord or I who made him' (or something like that - I dont have my books available).

I read it like this:
Eru to himself 'Man is to fragile to the temptation of evil, so he cannot stay in Arda immortal - I will give him a new gift - they, my children, shall come quickly before me and learn the truth and live in the bliss of my protection, and yet by their doings they shall make Arda a better place' ...

hmmmm.... Pretty beautiful, isn't it?

Eldar14 · 01-02-2002, 07:15 PM

Elrian, do you have any quotes about how Barrow Wights are mannish souls who don't wish to leave ME. I have my own theories about what the wights are, but I won't put them here to send the thread possibly off on at tangent.

Relating to the doom of men, I would rather call it the gift to men. The elves are inherintly sadder than men, just because their immortality shows them the destruction of all that was fair and good. Also, the men go before Ilu earlier, which is a great gift.

Grey Ship · 01-03-2002, 04:31 AM

Well, the elves' sadness is without grief, and they are not unhappy. I consider such state og mind truly romantic, and that is the main reason for my fondness of the elves [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Elrian · 01-03-2002, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Elrian, do you have any quotes about how Barrow Wights are mannish souls who don't wish to leave ME. I have my own theories about what the wights are, but I won't put them here to send the thread possibly off on at tangent.

I remember it being posted in another thread, and that it came out of one of the HoME's. I'll see if I can find it. One of the other more knowledgeable in the HoME's might be able to find it quicker.

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

Mhoram · 03-17-2002, 06:57 AM

Somewhere I think it says that men eventually find Eru after they leave the world and that after the End all the Children of Iluvater will join in the singing of a new theme, correcting the marring of arda. I'll get back to you with an exact quote later on this evening.

Jessica Jade · 03-20-2002, 03:05 PM

I know this will be a little bit off topic, but i have a question about the Grey Havens. What if someone came to the shores of middle earth and built their own boat to sail on the sea? Could they reach the West where the elves have departed to? Or is find-able to only elves and people the elves allow to be there? I was wondering, because couldn't anyone just sail over the sea if they wanted to?

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-20-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

What if someone came to the shores of middle earth and built their own boat to sail on the sea? Could they reach the West where the elves have departed to?

I would recommend that you read The Book of Lost Tales I and II. The framework of the Lost Tales involves a Man, Eriol or Ælfwine, that has found Tol Eressëa and is being told the "stories" of the Elves. Although the Lost Tales are Tolkien's very early work and is not exactly what I would call "canon", they show the possibility of just what you ask.

Mhoram · 03-20-2002, 03:17 PM

Bruce, imo, that's asking a bit much. I want people to read just as much as anyone, but nobodies going to go read a whole book just to answer one simple question.

Jessica, no, it isn't findable. If you want to know more about it, follow Bruce's advice.

BTW, this is really cute:

~ . ·'´)
¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·´ ¸.·´
¸.·´¸.·*`·-» Jessica~ (¸.·

Starbreeze · 03-20-2002, 03:33 PM

I never knew all that stuff! *makes note to memorise the books so she never looks silly again* [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

twinkle · 03-20-2002, 10:16 PM

hello, hello....

mho, is this the quote you were referring to?

"But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it." quenta silmarillion chapter 1

just an attempt to contribute [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
twinkle

Birdland · 03-20-2002, 11:16 PM

So why treat Arwen's fate as sad? If she chose to be mortal, it must be with the belief that she would join with the spirit of Aragorn again. Or is there another destiny for the fea of an Elf who chooses the "Doom of Man"?

Kalimac · 03-20-2002, 11:43 PM

Arwen chose to be mortal, so as far as I can tell from what I've read, she'd get the same status as all other Men with regard to the afterlife. So she would be reunited with Aragorn again. Her fate is sad because in choosing to be mortal she was also divided from her parents, brothers and all other Elves "beyond the end of the world." So she would get to be with Aragorn, but not with Elrond, Celebrian etc. Of course, if she chosen to remain immortal, she would not have been with Aragorn even in the afterlife, so either way she was in a cleft stick, the same as Luthien.

Amarinth · 03-21-2002, 02:54 AM

Quote:

would recommend that you read The Book of Lost Tales I and II. The framework of the Lost Tales involves a Man, Eriol or Ælfwine, that has found Tol Eressëa and is being told the "stories" of the Elves. Although the Lost Tales are Tolkien's very early work and is not exactly what I would call "canon", they show the possibility of just what you ask.

i didn't know this story too--must be in the 2nd lost tales book.

but again this is so confusing...i thought that save for some members of the fellowship only tuor among men was able to make it to valinor and "be numbered" among its inhabitants. even the elves themselves who, before the ban of the noldor was ended, tried to sail to the blessed realm got lost in the shadowy seas, or tarried in tol eressea and never came to step into the holy lands. well, i guess there are many exceptions to the rules; art imitates nature then...

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

Mhoram · 03-21-2002, 08:32 AM

Amarinth, I don't know what you're asking, could you rephrase the question?

twinkle, that was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Amarinth · 03-21-2002, 10:40 PM

no question, mhoram, i get it now...aelfwine only got to tol eressea, not valinor itself. tsk tsk, i better find a copy of BoLT and see for myself.

btw, mhoram, why mhoram? why not moksha jehannum raver? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] just kidding!

Mhoram · 03-22-2002, 08:39 AM

Nice to meet you, I don't come across others who have read the TCC very often.

Melenkurion abatha!

Amarinth · 03-24-2002, 09:03 PM

melenkurion skyweir! ???

ditto and ditto, it was a long time since i read it (both 1st and 2nd chrons) and already lost my books to evil scheming borrowers. tom covenant was so full of angst, which suited me then, but oh well...this is the wrong site to be discussing this! but of course i owe it all to tolkien for getting steeped in the genre...

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

01-01-2002, 08:43 AM	#1
Grey Ship Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: hmmm Posts: 17	The Doom of Men What are the Doom of Men? When Aragorn dies, he says to Arwen that she must sail into the west. Could that be possible, if there where any grey ships left? Can half elves who choses mortality go to the West? I dont quite understand what Aragorn says (and does) at this chapter in his life wen he dies.

01-01-2002, 08:49 AM	#2
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 368	The Doom of Men is to depart Middle-earth when they die. That is unlike Elves whose spirits remain in Middle-earth even if they die. I will leave the second part of your question to someone else more knowledgeable. -réd __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

01-01-2002, 12:49 PM	#3
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	he says that they have given him the gift of long life and now he gives it back freely. as to the half elf thing when she chose to become mortal and stay in the world when her father,elrond, went into the west she became mortal and subject to their fate and left middle-earth forever when she died. that is why it was a parting that was so sad and bitter. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

01-02-2002, 04:29 AM	#4
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Most spirits of both races go to Mandos in Valinor after they die, the spirits of Elves can take shape again but must remain in the West(Glorfindel was the only known exception to this), Men's spirits left Mandos to somewhere outside of Arda. Then there are some spirits like ourselves who do not wish to go to Mandos but remain in Middle Earth, to haunt places like the Barrows. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-02-2002, 09:02 AM	#5
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	yeah but i wonder where they go do they go into the darkness i mean where i know this is Eru's gift but where do they go. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

01-02-2002, 11:57 AM	#6
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	Who knows where the Fea (souls) of men goes? Mandos? - Manwë? - at least they havent reveled it to anybody. Much can be read about the doom of Men in The history of Middle-earth Vol. 10. Mannish tradition in the earlier ages tells us that Men did not originally consider themselves to be born mortal - but that mortallity was a divine intervention by Eru, because of Mans preliminary Fall - Mannich tradition says that Men worshipped the dark lord Melkor before any of them had yet died - wherefore Eru altered his first desing conserning Men - and made them mortal. This can easily be interpreted as a punishment for the Fall, BUT as Iluvatar said to men 'ye shal be mortal and ye shall come before me and see who is the Master - he that you call the Lord or I who made him' (or something like that - I dont have my books available). I read it like this: Eru to himself 'Man is to fragile to the temptation of evil, so he cannot stay in Arda immortal - I will give him a new gift - they, my children, shall come quickly before me and learn the truth and live in the bliss of my protection, and yet by their doings they shall make Arda a better place' ... hmmmm.... Pretty beautiful, isn't it? __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

01-02-2002, 07:15 PM	#7
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	Elrian, do you have any quotes about how Barrow Wights are mannish souls who don't wish to leave ME. I have my own theories about what the wights are, but I won't put them here to send the thread possibly off on at tangent. Relating to the doom of men, I would rather call it the gift to men. The elves are inherintly sadder than men, just because their immortality shows them the destruction of all that was fair and good. Also, the men go before Ilu earlier, which is a great gift. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

01-03-2002, 04:31 AM	#8
Grey Ship Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: hmmm Posts: 17	Well, the elves' sadness is without grief, and they are not unhappy. I consider such state og mind truly romantic, and that is the main reason for my fondness of the elves [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

03-17-2002, 06:57 AM	#10
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Somewhere I think it says that men eventually find Eru after they leave the world and that after the End all the Children of Iluvater will join in the singing of a new theme, correcting the marring of arda. I'll get back to you with an exact quote later on this evening.

03-20-2002, 03:05 PM	#11
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	I know this will be a little bit off topic, but i have a question about the Grey Havens. What if someone came to the shores of middle earth and built their own boat to sail on the sea? Could they reach the West where the elves have departed to? Or is find-able to only elves and people the elves allow to be there? I was wondering, because couldn't anyone just sail over the sea if they wanted to? __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

03-20-2002, 03:17 PM	#13
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Bruce, imo, that's asking a bit much. I want people to read just as much as anyone, but nobodies going to go read a whole book just to answer one simple question. Jessica, no, it isn't findable. If you want to know more about it, follow Bruce's advice. BTW, this is really cute: ~ . ·'´) ¸.·´¸.·´¨) ¸.·¨) (¸.·´ (¸.·´ ¸.·´ ¸.·´¸.·`·-» Jessica~ (¸.·

03-20-2002, 03:33 PM	#14
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	I never knew all that stuff! makes note to memorise the books so she never looks silly again [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-20-2002, 10:16 PM	#15
twinkle Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: my little blooming garden Posts: 45	hello, hello.... mho, is this the quote you were referring to? "But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it." quenta silmarillion chapter 1 just an attempt to contribute [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] twinkle __________________ “For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomable at the foundations of the Earth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

03-20-2002, 11:16 PM	#16
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	So why treat Arwen's fate as sad? If she chose to be mortal, it must be with the belief that she would join with the spirit of Aragorn again. Or is there another destiny for the fea of an Elf who chooses the "Doom of Man"?

03-20-2002, 11:43 PM	#17
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Arwen chose to be mortal, so as far as I can tell from what I've read, she'd get the same status as all other Men with regard to the afterlife. So she would be reunited with Aragorn again. Her fate is sad because in choosing to be mortal she was also divided from her parents, brothers and all other Elves "beyond the end of the world." So she would get to be with Aragorn, but not with Elrond, Celebrian etc. Of course, if she chosen to remain immortal, she would not have been with Aragorn even in the afterlife, so either way she was in a cleft stick, the same as Luthien. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-21-2002, 08:32 AM	#19
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Amarinth, I don't know what you're asking, could you rephrase the question? twinkle, that was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

03-21-2002, 10:40 PM	#20
Amarinth Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: realm of agonized volcanoes Posts: 113	no question, mhoram, i get it now...aelfwine only got to tol eressea, not valinor itself. tsk tsk, i better find a copy of BoLT and see for myself. btw, mhoram, why mhoram? why not moksha jehannum raver? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] just kidding! __________________ pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings

03-22-2002, 08:39 AM	#21
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Nice to meet you, I don't come across others who have read the TCC very often. Melenkurion abatha!

03-24-2002, 09:03 PM	#22
Amarinth Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: realm of agonized volcanoes Posts: 113	melenkurion skyweir! ??? ditto and ditto, it was a long time since i read it (both 1st and 2nd chrons) and already lost my books to evil scheming borrowers. tom covenant was so full of angst, which suited me then, but oh well...this is the wrong site to be discussing this! but of course i owe it all to tolkien for getting steeped in the genre... --------------------------------------------- every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse __________________ pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings