horncall of buckland

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I do not take other talking objects - the troll's purse, Turin's sword - at face value, thinking of them as storytellers' decoration, and it is, in any case, implied to a far smaller degree that the horn talked.

Still, interesting topic.

I quite like that idea, especially since I'm not too fond of the talking objects from a... ahem, canonical point of view, though the purse is fun if you see Bilbo as a stand-alone fairytale.

But yeah, I can totally see how Bilbo, when writing his story, would add certain elements to make it more captivating and remove other elements to make himself look better. Perhaps he just stepped on a twig and was caught by the trolls without much drama but that wouldn't make a good story, would it?

And there were no witnesses around to contradict him. If you accept the premiss that Tolkien was merely the translator of these stories from an ancient past you also have to take into account that, as far as I can remember, no-one was around to hear Turin's sword talking to him, so there's no telling exactly what happened before he took his own life.

And yeah, I'm also quite certain Tolkien didn't intent the Buckland Horn to carry a magically pre-recorded voice message. I don't mind if you read it that way though, alman.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And yeah, I'm also quite certain Tolkien didn't intent the Buckland Horn to carry a magically pre-recorded voice message. I don't mind if you read it that way though, alman.

Indeed, there's nothing to stop anyone imagining it anyway they like. That's fine. However, Alman did start this thread just to ask about it.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Still, interesting topic.I quite like that idea, especially since I'm not too fond of the talking objects from a... ahem, canonical point of view, though the purse is fun if you see Bilbo as a stand-alone fairytale.

On the whole I tend to agree with Puddleglum that the purse and the sword are probably meant to be actually speaking. But still, the "translator conceit" does give the reader a fair bit of leeway there.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It's interesting. I think many readers struggle to fit the cute, talking purse from the children's story The Hobbit into Tolkien's world. I've always considered it as Bilbo having a laugh with younger hobbits, and embellishing his tale (while scurrying over his incompetence, in that case, as a burglar).

Turin's sword? Nah. I don't believe in it. I just read that as an element added to the myth by subsequent generations. I can genuinely believe in the ancient character of Turin (well, not believe in him, but you know what I mean) but suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Possibly, tho it's always seemed to me that these words were also cried out by Theoden (even tho that isn't explicitly stated). Ie, that the sequence was:

1. Theoden makes his "arise now" call, ending with a first "Ride now, Ride now, Ride to Gondor"
2. Theoden blows such a blast that his horn bursts.
3. The Rohirrim respond with a blowing of horns "like a storm upon the plain."
4. Energy builds until Theoden cries again "Ride now, Ride now! Ride to Gondor!", Yells to & spurs Snowmane, and leads the Glorious Charge; Adrenaline pumping; "Borne up as a god of old, even as Orome the great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young."

Again, it could be an interpretation issue, but my feeling is that if the "Ride Now!" came after the horns answered Théoden's first shout, and were spoken by him, the wording would indicate that.
As it is, we have a passage describing horns blowing in response to Théoden in what seems to be a "call to arms", then a statement that Théoden "cried to Smowmane and the horse sprang away".
Could it be as you say? Sure. But I think there's room for discussion, either way.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Turin's sword? Nah. I don't believe in it. I just read that as an element added to the myth by subsequent generations. I can genuinely believe in the ancient character of Turin (well, not believe in him, but you know what I mean) but suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

Actually, Eomer, Tolkien borrowed that scene directly from the Finnish Kalevala. It is as it was intended, without embellishment. It's Tolkien's version of fan-fic.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Actually, Eomer, Tolkien borrowed that scene directly from the Finnish Kalevala. It is as it was intended, without embellishment. It's Tolkien's version of fan-fic.

You know, Morth, I thought I had read it somewhere, but my memory is bad and my Tolkien knowledge goes only so deep. Fascinating!

If we talk Kalevala, I can 'believe' in many of the characters and the struggles they encountered; however I wouldn't believe the talking sword scene actually happened. Same with Tolkien's myths. It might be a bit odd to divide a fiction into parts you believe and parts you don't, but there you go.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Actually, Eomer, Tolkien borrowed that scene directly from the Finnish Kalevala. It is as it was intended, without embellishment. It's Tolkien's version of fan-fic.

Morth, I'm glad that you brought that up. Sil is so heavily mythical, that seems to me to be the heart of this whole discussion; what works in the myth and what might not. LittleManPoet describes it as "what breaks the enchantment." Apparently for some on this thread, too much magic breaks the enchantment. Odd, but there it is.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Morth, I'm glad that you brought that up. Sil is so heavily mythical, that seems to me to be the heart of this whole discussion; what works in the myth and what might not. LittleManPoet describes it as "what breaks the enchantment." Apparently for some on this thread, too much magic breaks the enchantment. Odd, but there it is.

You are right, in a manner, Mxii_xxx. But it is more like too much magic where it doesn't belong, and who wields it. Prior to the 4th Age in the Shire, none but a small coterie of 5 or 6 Hobbits out of thousands (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin and perhaps Fredegar) knew anything of magic rings, elvish swords that glowed blue, the true nature of wizards or of Sauron, for that matter. Most Hobbits were xenophobic isolationists, and even considered other Hobbits who lived beyond their borders as 'queer'. It was even 'queer' to wear boots! The Gaffer doesn't even go in for ironmongery "whether it wears well or no."

So, along comes a poster -- who I am sure is an affable, logical and decent person -- and mistakes a metaphor for actual magic in the Shire. A speaking horn? What exactly is the point? Why not just scream "Fear, Fire, Foes"? Unless, of course, the magic horn had a clip-on microphone running through a Marshall Stack and was blown at 120 decibels like a Who concert. Maybe magic Hobbit amplifiers go up to 11.

I am being facetious. Only the lead guitarist of Spinal Tap has an amp that goes up to 11.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So, along comes a poster -- who I am sure is an affable, logical and decent person -- and mistakes a metaphor for actual magic in the Shire. A speaking horn? What exactly is the point? Why not just scream "Fear, Fire, Foes"? Unless, of course, the magic horn had a clip-on microphone running through a Marshall Stack and was blown at 120 decibels like a Who concert. Maybe magic Hobbit amplifiers go up to 11.

I am being facetious. Only the lead guitarist of Spinal Tap has an amp that goes up to 11.

I was unclear; I do not (personally) believe that the horn of Buckland was magical or spoke with a voice; I am pro-bugle-tune-lyrics. I was actually pursuing the Troll's talking purse, which never bothered me, but which apparently breaks the enchantment for certain others.

I like loud amplifiers, though. When I am in the mood for them.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I was actually pursuing the Troll's talking purse, which never bothered me, but which apparently breaks the enchantment for certain others.

But surely you can see where we are coming from though? I mean, there's no reason why the talking purse would bother a casual reader of the Hobbit and it does add some fun to the story. But many of us here are übernerds who have even ploughed through various volumes of HoME (and that ain't always easy) in order to better understand the metaphysics of this fictional world, and from this perspective the idea of cockney Trolls with talking purses fits poorly into the later, more elaborate world of Arda that Tolkien develoved.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But surely you can see where we are coming from though? I mean, there's no reason why the talking purse would bother a casual reader of the Hobbit and it does add some fun to the story. But many of us here are übernerds who have even ploughed through various volumes of HoME (and that ain't always easy) in order to better understand the metaphysics of this fictional world, and from this perspective the idea of cockney Trolls with talking purses fits poorly into the later, more elaborate world of Arda that Tolkien develoved.

Skip, I can definitely see where you are coming from. I have ploughed through a fair amount of HoME myself. I am very intense about canonicity (reference the thread of that name) and, now that I think about it in this vein, if I were writing a fanfic (or an RPG) and a cockney troll's talking purse entered the scene, my red pen would be out in a flash. Ditto for a talking sword.

However, and on the other hand-- I personally do not choose to criticise the professor for indulging his whimsy in a children's tale nor for introducing something uber-mytological into his mythology. He has that right.

Farmer Giles of Ham does not stand well beside Elrond of Rivendell, but that doesn't mean I would edit either one.

In case you have not yet guessed, my canonicity vote goes heartily towards "the author".

[alman]

Thank you all for the intellegent replies to my question. After reading the replies, and some other reading on horns as suggested, i agree that the sounds were just sounding like or stood for words. This, i think, was difficult for me due to the fact that these first chapters have a different feel that the rest of the book. They are a bridge from the hobbit to the bigger world, from a childrens story to a more grown up version. the locomotion , talking fox, fireworks, multiple magical presents from Dale, and some Dwarf make ones(dwarves make magic toys?!) and the strangeness/childlikeness of ol Tom B.
These lighter elements helped enable my belief in the horn. that was how my 12y.o. brain saw it, and I never questoned it in my multiple re-reads over the years.
Also, the way most hobbits are described as not getting involved, and adventures making one late for dinner, and not into reading mostly, unless it was bout a family tree, that training alerts on a horn was very out of character. I suppose this is only the norm in Buckland, where invasions from the Old Forrest, or other gates and borders (being on the edge of the Shire) were a bit more of a problem than in Hobbiton. I do recall reading that the borders were more active in the years leading up to the leaving of the ring. I suppose the Bucklanders had retrained in the years of intruders on the borders.

[Nerwen]

Sorry for jumping on you, alman! I misjudged you. It's just that I've recently had a whole series of real-life arguments in which the other parties simply refused to admit they could be mistaken about some trivial point, no matter the evidence. I guess it's reaching the stage where my approach is "get exasperated first, ask questions later". I really need to stop that.

[Morthoron]

Yes...Nerwen, like Ents, becomes downright hasty when provoked. Except her bark and an Ent's bark are two different things.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Except her bark and an Ent's bark...

Now that's good! I love it. ROFL

[alman]

nerwin-
no problem. I was just looking for some insight. ( Who am I to pass judgement?Even the very wise cannot see all ends) I ended up going back to the book and hunting for all horns. What got me was Borrimer (sp) in the FoTR sounded his horn before the fellowship set out, and all that heard the "voice" of the horn stood ready/got up/something or other.