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11-15-2002, 02:09 PM | #1 | |||||
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 130
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Elves don't belong in Valinor?
I am posting this thread to explore some ideas about the Firstborn's presense in Valinor. I got this idea while reading debate in another thread over which elven race, the Vanyar or the Noldor, was greater. The Exile was used as evidence against the Noldor, which made me think about whether it really was wrong for them to leave. That led me to question whether the Elves should have ever been in Valinor in the first place.
The Valar brought the Elves to the Undying Lands after much deliberation amongst themselves: Quote:
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The Elves initially didn't even want to go to Valinor: Quote:
To theorize that the Valar were wrong to bring the Quendi to Valinor means to accept the fact that they were not perfect and could make mistakes. Quote:
Perhaps this thought should be another thread entirely, but I find it unconscionable that the Valar did not toss Melkor into the Timeless Void when they had their hands on him this first time. He had already done enough to show he was beyond redemption. Eru created the Quendi to be born in Middle Earth. Let me know what you think about the Valar's presumtion to move them to Valinor. By extension, if it was wrong to bring the elves to Valinor, it was not wrong for the Noldor to leave. The "Fall of the Noldor" then should refer not to the fact that they left, but to the manner in which they left(the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, abandonment of Fingolfin's people, burning of the White Ships at Losgar) and the things that happened to them as a race afterward. I realize this probably sounds a bit like the "black lies of Morgoth" [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img], but I just wanted to get some of your thoughts on this different view of the elves in Valinor. [ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]
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11-15-2002, 02:35 PM | #2 | ||
The Kinslayer
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If you read Bolt1, Chaining of Melko you would see that Manwë himself was willing to bow to Melko in hopes of having him return to Valinor and avoid "unpleasantries"; of course Tulkas interfered and it never happened. But I believe that it gives us something of his character that is lacking in the Sil, although it's only Bolt.
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11-15-2002, 02:45 PM | #3 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,436
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It's good that you are thinking about this stuff, but this thread has been started before. Check it out, it might help you along.
As to your question about why the Valar didn't get rid of Melkor right away, try to look up an essay called "osanwe-kenta." You can find some info on this board if you do a search, PM me if you need any help finding the actual text. In short, Melkor could keep his mind totally walled off and project only what would win him Manwe's good favor.
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11-15-2002, 04:01 PM | #4 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 130
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Damn. I thought I had come up with a good one. It is hard to do with so many good minds on this board. Thanks for the links burrahobbit. I am not familiar with the "Osanwe-Kenta". I will look it up.
I read the other thread, and there is some discussion. Maybe this thread will revive it. The ideas of even Melkor having the right of Redemption make sense, but how much is enough? Was it really necessary for all that came after the Valar's first chance to be rid of Melkor to happen in order to establish he was beyond saving? In thinking more about this I get the idea that the restraint of the Valar in regard to Melkor makes them accomplices in all that took place via Feanor and his Oath. Even more, the Valar are accomplices in all that went wrong after the attack on them during the time of the Pillars. I can appreciate the portion of the Osanwe-Kenta that was quoted in the other thread which talked about the fact that evil will always make use of the constraints that good places on itself. Quote:
The only thing, in my mind, that would absolve the Valar of guilt would be if they did not have the ability to apprehend Melkor after the destruction of the Pillars. Surely the combined might of the Valar would have been enough had they chosen to exercise it, even though Melkor was still at or very close to the height of his power.
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11-15-2002, 04:17 PM | #5 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
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Something to keep in mind when thinking about what the Valar did and didn't do is that they lack free will. Everything that they do was determined During the Music. Once they enter into Arda they become a part of it and bound to its fate.
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11-15-2002, 06:08 PM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
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I think that i greatly respect Manwe for his decision. He was a good, kind leader, who saw a fallen comrade who needed healing, who's soul was damaged but not irreparable. This ability to see good in even the greatest of evil is an admirable trait, even if it could be seen as foolish.
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11-16-2002, 07:15 PM | #7 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2002
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Quote:
IMHO the clear case of “dog doesn’t eat dog”. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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11-16-2002, 08:28 PM | #8 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
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Those that were destroyed with Numenor were, chiefly, the fallen and bad-hearted of the Numenoreans. The survivors under Elendil were actually, as I remember, most of the island's inhabitants who still held on to the light. Thus the Valar spared them.
If I may add... do they then belong in Middle-Earth? Perhaps at first, but not now. It is too Men dominated, and the time of the Elves is over. Since Elves are mostly true-hearted and those that are left cannot really be evil, at least to nothing like the same extent we can, Valinor may well suit them better than Middle-Earth. When they had it to themselves things were different. The expansion and domination of Men was Eru's design, and so the Elves too must have their place; so it must be Valinor. |
11-16-2002, 10:26 PM | #9 |
Ghost Eldaran Queen
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
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Excellent question, Gwaihir (forgive me if I have butchered the spelling of your most noble name, oh Windlord!)!
I would also like to add that IMHO, I felt that in the 3rd Age, many Elves felt a call upon them to return to Valinor. Obviously, Eru had placed a desire among them to return, especially after the destruction of Sauron. But, that is merely my opinion. I'll check back later & see how this discussion has progressed.
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11-17-2002, 01:46 PM | #10 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
I see your point, Gwaihir, about Elves no longer belonging in Middle Earth. I don’t think that precludes the argument that they didn’t belong in Valinor before Men even awoke in Middle Earth. It does make sense that Eru intended Valinor to be the Firstborn’s eventual home, however I think the Valar jumped the gun. Quote:
[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]
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11-17-2002, 09:18 PM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2002
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The Valar were most probably preordained by the Music, as the themes were given to them by Eru himself and they were to be the tools (if I may use the word) to carry out Eru’s design. But then weren’t it they who created the MUSIC on Eru’s THEMES? “Behold YOUR Music,» said Eru. That doesn’t allow me to think that everything was planned to the smallest detail from the very start, at least not by Him. IMHO Eru outlined the course for the Valar (he didn’t tell them all his designs, right? so they couldn’t reflect them in their Music which was the instrument of Creation). The Valar could direct the fates of elves (maybe because they had taken part the Second Theme) by their actions – eg. by summoning them to Valinor-, or inactions – by allowing the Marring of Arda or the theft if Silmarils. The Men in turn seem to be led by elves – those ones who dared to entwine their fates with Firstborn. The Valar stand as rewarding or punishing forces – the aftermath one has to think of.
As for elves going to Valinor… Wouldn’t they be happier in M-E if they didn’t know of a marvelous place awaiting for them somewhere beyond the seas? I’ve got the feeling that M-E lost elves the moment they were invited to Valinor. The ones who departed – well, they departed. And the lives of those ones that stayed were marred by thought of Paradise Lost (or the lost chance to find it). Men dominate Arda because it’s their one and only home, and they have to make the best of it (as well as they can). And anyway what would have happened if the Valar took ALL elves to Valinor in the First Age as they had intended? Were the Men meant to fight Melkor or redress his wrong alone and unaided?
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11-17-2002, 09:28 PM | #12 | |
Speaker of the Dead
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Quote:
~*~Orual~*~
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11-18-2002, 09:57 AM | #13 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I also lean toward akhtene's "broad constructionist" view of the Music. The overall fate of Valar and Elves is preordained but the road they take to their fate is in their own hands. That leaves a huge amount of room for speculation, which in a way stinks because speculation is sometimes hard to prove or disprove.
If you accept the idea that the Valar had room to manuver within the constraints of their fate as defined by the Music, then my question remains: Were the Valar covetous and presumtive in bringing the Quendi to Valinor when they did? I say yes. Quote:
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