Hobbits are to English as Elves are to .....eh...does anyone know?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Daegwenn · 03-04-2002, 09:04 PM

Where do elves come from? I mean the ACTUAL myth of the elf?

Leprechauns come from Ireland, Gnomes are Germanic, and Trolls were created by the Scandinavians...but I can't find where the myths of Elves come from.

Does anyone know or have any speculations?

~~Daegwenn

Samwise · 03-04-2002, 09:48 PM

Elves? Hm. For some reason I'm thinking Norway, Sweden, or that region. (But then, I also have a sinus headache, which probably means I don't know what I'm talking about...)
I do know there are "house-elves" called Brownies in Canada, though, which I also know isn't any help..... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Quote:

Sam: "What's the time? Is it today or tomorrow?"
(LOL! This sounds an awful lot like me when in my "human" form!!)

Aralaithiel · 03-04-2002, 09:52 PM

I was under the impression that they were of Finnish, Norwegian, or Swedish mythos. Maybe even Russian? Lush?
If anyone finds the answer, do share! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 03-04-2002, 10:08 PM

Tolkien's Quendi come from Tolkien. Tolkien's trolls as well. And, hey, guess about hobbits and orcs.
He only gave these creatures names of our very own world and nearer time. Apart from 'hobbit', which he made up. There are 'Elves' in other myths (mostly called 'fairies'), but only in the earliest and long abandoned stages of the legendarium were they related to Tolkien's Quendi or other races.

Kalimac · 03-04-2002, 10:27 PM

If I had to guess I'd say Elves had Celtic origins, close to those of Irish and Scottish fairies. In the Middle Ages and earlier fairies were thought of as full-sized and very beautiful beings, also very frightening and powerful. They weren't intrinsically evil, but they belonged to an older (read: pre-Christian) world and any human who got entangled with them would either disappear forever (like in "The Child Who Went With the Fairies") or at least be changed drastically by the fact that fairies lived outside of normal time (like all those fairy-tales about the man who goes to dance one reel with a fairy party and at the end of the reel returns home and it's a hundred years later).

Sounds a lot like those lines about "Men say that few escape the snares of the Sorceress of the Golden Wood" and the fact that time passes differently in Elven-country. And since Tolkien's Elves don't engage in baby-stealing or luring people away for the fun of it, who knows, maybe the medieval fairies got a bad rap. That'll happen when people think you're strange.

Birdland · 03-05-2002, 09:12 AM

Yeah, elves are as English as Yorkshire pudding. Check out "Thomas the Rhymer", "Midsummer's Night Dream" or "The Demon Lover".

But then, wasn't it Goethe the German poet who wrote that incredibly scary poem about the man with the dying child being pursued by the Elf King?

Thing is, if Gimli heard any of these poems, he'd have good reason not to want to go to Lothlorien.

Elves is scary! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Aralaithiel · 03-05-2002, 04:52 PM

No we're not! [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]
Unless, of course, you happen to come upon me wielding my mace! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

littlemanpoet · 03-05-2002, 07:47 PM

Read the Mabinogion, about the Tuatha de Danaan. They are one of the sources for Tolkien's Elves. And no, it is not true that Tolkien just made them up out of his own highly original genius, highly original though it was. Nor is that true about Dwarves or Orcs. Remember, in The Hobbit orcs, for example, were called Goblins.

Way back in the beginnings of the courtly era, Cretien de Troyes took Celtic myths and retold them as contemporary love stories with knights and ladies; the knights and ladies were Celtic gods and goddesses reconstituted, so to speak. The result of de Troyes' popularity was the Arthurian mythos, with the Lady of the Lake (very elvish - or I should say, faerie). It's important also to remember that Tolkien wrote of his and others' creations in these areas as 'Faerie'.

Check out the Arthurian Legends, the Mabinogion, and compare them to the SPIRIT of Tolkien's "Smith of Wooton Major". I think you'll see the connections.

Aralaithiel · 03-06-2002, 03:12 PM

Thanks for enlightening me, littlemanpoet! I am amazed at how much I glean from this forum! How could I have forgotten about the Celts, my ancestors? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
~*goes off to read Arthurian references...

littlemanpoet · 03-06-2002, 08:33 PM

Quite welcome, milady. (bows and kisses ring {um the Queen does have a ring, no?}) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Daegwenn · 03-07-2002, 03:32 PM

I had the idea that they were...eh...of a Roman or Greek origin. Like a nymph. *slaps head* I'm a dummy.

~~Daegwenn
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

03-04-2002, 09:04 PM	#1
Daegwenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 82	Hobbits are to English as Elves are to .....eh...does anyone know?? Where do elves come from? I mean the ACTUAL myth of the elf? Leprechauns come from Ireland, Gnomes are Germanic, and Trolls were created by the Scandinavians...but I can't find where the myths of Elves come from. Does anyone know or have any speculations? ~~Daegwenn __________________ "And still of a winter’s night, they say, when the wind is in the trees, When the moon is a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas, When the road is a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor, A highwayman comes riding— Riding—Riding— A highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn-door. Over the cobbles he clatters and clangs in the dark inn-yard. And he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there But the landlord’s black-eyed daughter, Bess, the landlord’s daughter, Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair" Highwayman Alfred Noyes

03-04-2002, 09:52 PM	#3
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I was under the impression that they were of Finnish, Norwegian, or Swedish mythos. Maybe even Russian? Lush? If anyone finds the answer, do share! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-04-2002, 10:27 PM	#5
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	If I had to guess I'd say Elves had Celtic origins, close to those of Irish and Scottish fairies. In the Middle Ages and earlier fairies were thought of as full-sized and very beautiful beings, also very frightening and powerful. They weren't intrinsically evil, but they belonged to an older (read: pre-Christian) world and any human who got entangled with them would either disappear forever (like in "The Child Who Went With the Fairies") or at least be changed drastically by the fact that fairies lived outside of normal time (like all those fairy-tales about the man who goes to dance one reel with a fairy party and at the end of the reel returns home and it's a hundred years later). Sounds a lot like those lines about "Men say that few escape the snares of the Sorceress of the Golden Wood" and the fact that time passes differently in Elven-country. And since Tolkien's Elves don't engage in baby-stealing or luring people away for the fun of it, who knows, maybe the medieval fairies got a bad rap. That'll happen when people think you're strange. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-05-2002, 04:52 PM	#7
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	No we're not! [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] Unless, of course, you happen to come upon me wielding my mace! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-06-2002, 03:12 PM	#9
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Thanks for enlightening me, littlemanpoet! I am amazed at how much I glean from this forum! How could I have forgotten about the Celts, my ancestors? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ~goes off to read Arthurian references... __________________ A lelyat, wen!* (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-04-2002, 10:08 PM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Tolkien's Quendi come from Tolkien. Tolkien's trolls as well. And, hey, guess about hobbits and orcs. He only gave these creatures names of our very own world and nearer time. Apart from 'hobbit', which he made up. There are 'Elves' in other myths (mostly called 'fairies'), but only in the earliest and long abandoned stages of the legendarium were they related to Tolkien's Quendi or other races.

03-05-2002, 09:12 AM	#6
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Yeah, elves are as English as Yorkshire pudding. Check out "Thomas the Rhymer", "Midsummer's Night Dream" or "The Demon Lover". But then, wasn't it Goethe the German poet who wrote that incredibly scary poem about the man with the dying child being pursued by the Elf King? Thing is, if Gimli heard any of these poems, he'd have good reason not to want to go to Lothlorien. Elves is scary! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

03-05-2002, 07:47 PM	#8
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Read the Mabinogion, about the Tuatha de Danaan. They are one of the sources for Tolkien's Elves. And no, it is not true that Tolkien just made them up out of his own highly original genius, highly original though it was. Nor is that true about Dwarves or Orcs. Remember, in The Hobbit orcs, for example, were called Goblins. Way back in the beginnings of the courtly era, Cretien de Troyes took Celtic myths and retold them as contemporary love stories with knights and ladies; the knights and ladies were Celtic gods and goddesses reconstituted, so to speak. The result of de Troyes' popularity was the Arthurian mythos, with the Lady of the Lake (very elvish - or I should say, faerie). It's important also to remember that Tolkien wrote of his and others' creations in these areas as 'Faerie'. Check out the Arthurian Legends, the Mabinogion, and compare them to the SPIRIT of Tolkien's "Smith of Wooton Major". I think you'll see the connections.

03-06-2002, 08:33 PM	#10
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Quite welcome, milady. (bows and kisses ring {um the Queen does have a ring, no?}) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

03-07-2002, 03:32 PM	#11
Daegwenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 82	I had the idea that they were...eh...of a Roman or Greek origin. Like a nymph. slaps head I'm a dummy. ~~Daegwenn [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ "And still of a winter’s night, they say, when the wind is in the trees, When the moon is a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas, When the road is a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor, A highwayman comes riding— Riding—Riding— A highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn-door. Over the cobbles he clatters and clangs in the dark inn-yard. And he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there But the landlord’s black-eyed daughter, Bess, the landlord’s daughter, Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair" Highwayman Alfred Noyes