Let us theorize. Saruman's treachery. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mhoram · 02-28-2002, 09:36 PM

How do the chips fall if Saruman doesn't reveal his true plans to Gandalf?

Kuruharan · 02-28-2002, 10:01 PM

Hmm..., very interesting question.

1. Gandalf would not have been late, and would have been with Frodo & co. on their way to Rivendell, thus saving much excitement along the way, but not materially changing the story that much.
2. Saruman (perhaps) attends the Council of Elrond, which would have had a catastrophic effect on the Quest. He would have had Ugluk's merry band of fellows pounce on the Fellowship when they were wandering through the lands west of the Misty Mountains, or something.
3. The Fellowship is more willing to go through the Gap of Rohan on their way South and East. Game Over. This event would probably have been worse than Saruman attending the Council of Elrond.

Pretty much, if Saruman had not revealed himself to Gandalf when he did, the chances that he would get the Ring greatly increase.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-01-2002, 06:11 AM

Of course if Saruman falls on the fellowship at the Gap, and manages to get all of them back to Isengard as captives, Gandalf isn't free to rouse Theoden; Aragorn can't take the Paths of the Dead and Minas Tirith falls (not to mention that Merry and Pippin can't turn up in Fangorn just at the right time to spark off the rising of the Ents). Assuming that Saruman would be stupid enough to take up the Ring and challenge Sauron immediately (I think that he would; he seemed pretty confident of his power) the main army of Mordor then turns up at Isengard and pulls it to bits. Result: catastrophe; the rule of Sauron and Saruman ends up worse off than he does in the real story.

Gorin Icearms · 03-01-2002, 06:26 AM

"The ring had given him power according to his stature" Gollum used the ring for petty sneakiness. But Saruman is a buff guy (magicwise), he had his own army of day-time orcs, was the head of the council, andhad a palantir. Of course Sauron had one too so he could prepare for an attack by Saruman. I don't know if having the ring would be enough to take Sauron down, but it would be one heck of a battle. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Mhoram · 03-01-2002, 06:35 AM

Galadriel was convinced with the ring she would replace Sauron as a queen, and she was only an elf(even if she was nearly equal the Feanor) Saruman was a Maia.

This is off subject, but if say Saruman were to get the ring, he wouldn't have that loss of personaly power that Sauron had to make the ring. eek.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-01-2002, 07:13 AM

I was thinking of the fact that Saruman was utterly outnumbered by the hosts of Mordor, with no buffer zone between himself and his rival (if Rohan is removed, which seems likely).
I'm sure that Sauron wouldn't have given so much of himself to the Ring's making if he didn't gain some sort of advantage over other users and there are a number of references to the Ring's having but one master. Just look at the arrogant confidence with which he announces through the Palantir that he'll send for the Ring; it must have occurred to him that Saruman might try to challenge him, yet he can't even be bothered to deal with the matter personally.
One could also see Galadriel's queen speech as a fantasy created by the Ring, akin to Sam's of making Mordor bloom, combined with a desire to frighten Frodo out of trusting the Wise unquestioningly (I'm sure that if the Ring was trying to turn her she was aware of it).

It would be one hell of a battle, though. If he hadn't played his hand too soon, Saruman would have been in a position to destroy Rohan unimpeded, which in turn helps Sauron to reduce Gondor and leaves a straight contest between Mordor and Isengard. Not a pleasant thought, but I'm still fairly sure of the outcome.

Mhoram · 03-01-2002, 07:16 AM

If Saruman controled the ring, he would also control the Nazgul and perhaps all of Sauron's armies.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-01-2002, 11:12 AM

Good point.

What if he couldn't control it properly, though? As I said earlier, Sauron didn't seem unduly worried when he thought that Saruman already held the Ring. Perhaps he built some sort of loophole into it against just such an eventuality.

Thingol · 03-01-2002, 03:13 PM

Even if someone else claimed the Ring that does not mean that Sauron just disappears. The person who claims the Ring must still deal with Sauron. I do not believe that anyone in Middle Earth, with the exception of perhaps Gandalf the White could have defeated Sauron, even with the Ring. Galadriel says that if she took the Ring she would through down Sauron and become a dark queen. However, Tolkien stated that he was skeptical that Galdriel could have done this. Tolkien said the nature of the Ring is such that it corrupts the mind, making you believe that you are capable of great deeds (The vision of armies flocking to Boromir, Sam's vission of creating a garden in Gorgoroth, and Gollum's vision of punishing all those that were cruel to him and eating fish from the sea). Tolkein also said that if Galadriel was capable of doing this than Elrond would have been able to also (I'm sure red would agree with this [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) There would have to be a contest of will between whoever claimed the Ring and Sauron. Sauron might have been confident that he would have won such a contest against Saruman. After all he won such a contest against Saruman with the Ithil Palantir.

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Kuruharan · 03-01-2002, 05:13 PM

All right, if Saruman had been smart here's what he would have done.

He would have concealed his true mind from Gandalf. Given Gandalf an answer to satisfy the reason why he had come. Maybe even say something along the lines of, "Why Gandalf, my dear chap, why don't you bring this little Ring down here to Isengard and then the two of us could together decide on what to do with it." Even if he did not say that he should have let Gandalf depart thinking that he (Saruman) was still on the side of Good. Afterwards, if Gandalf had brought Frodo to Isengard then the Ring would have been his. If not, it is much more likely that the Fellowship would have travelled through the Gap of Rohan, maybe even to Isengard itself to consult with Saruman. Same ending.

During the time that Gandalf would have been away, Saruman would have been visited by the Black Riders searching for the Ring. Saruman would have to come up with a very convincing story sending them off to the Iron Hills or some other place sufficiently remote to get them out of the picture for at least a little while.

After Saruman got the Ring things would not really become less "interesting." As has been suggested, he probably could have more easily squashed Rohan with the Ring, but as has also been mentioned that would only expose him to the power of Mordor. Upon obtaining the Ring he should have continued his hidden course, continuing to pretend to serve Good to keep Rohan and Gondor as buffer states to shield him from the Red Eye. During the initial phases he should refrain from personally touching the Ring, and he would also have to break contact with Sauron through the Seeing Stones. What he should have been doing during this interval is continuing to build up his strength and doing all he can to aid Rohan and Gondor in their fight against Mordor. Obviously, Ugluk and Crew would have given the game away instantly, but I think that a horde of wild Dunlanders sent to aid Gondor and Rohan would have been welcomed.

Sooner or later Saruman would have to gather himself and try to win mastery of the Ring. The moment that he did so Sauron, Galadriel, and Elrond would be aware of him (Gandalf you recall being out of the picture.) However, above all else he should still maintain the guise of serving Good for as long as possible. Obviously, this would not work with the Elves, but the Elves are not important. The Men and their large kingdoms protecting him from Mordor are. This is another reason Saruman must stop using the Stone, because Denethor would be aware of Saruman possessing the Ring and the game would be up. As a matter of fact, if possible, Saruman should not openly reveal that he has the Ring at all. The Elves and Sauron would know of course, but the humans did not trust the Elves (certainly not Galadriel) and Saruman should have made every effort to intercept messages between the more trusted Elrond and Gondor. Sauron would probably not even bother to tell his enemies what he knew, and if he tried they would have no reason to listen to him.

Then would come the showdown. If all went well, Saruman would be commanding the forces of Gondor, Rohan, and Dunland against Mordor and most of the rest of the East and South. This is where things get unpredictable. If the Ring enabled the Bearer to actually command the orcs then Saruman should have brough his own in tow (hidden from his human allies) and then when the moment was right taken control of the orc hosts of Mordor, unleashed his own orcs from hiding, turned the Dunlanders against his erstwhile human allies (unless they submit to him of course), and kill every human (except the Dunlanders) in sight. Who knows, some of the Southrons and Easterlings might have switched sides seeing the "Great and Glorious Saruman of Many Colors" unveiled on the battlefield in all his splendor, but that would probably not really matter. Much of the course of the battle would also depend on the circumstances of the fight, and Saruman's ability as a commander. If he won this battle then Middle earth would have been his for the taking.

There are obviously many, many problems, and holes in the above strategy. The biggest wildcard would have been Saruman's ability (or lack thereof) to control the Ring. Tolkien himself said that this was not possible so there goes the whole thing right there.

However, since this is a speculative sort of thread, assuming that Saruman could control the Ring, there are still several variables. The most important is when he chose to try to assert his control of the Ring, what Sauron would have tried to do, and the role of the Nazgul. They probably would not have been able to do anything to him directly, but their fealty was to Sauron alone, he held their Nine Rings. They would certainly have tried something.

Another variable is Denethor. If he somehow found out about all of this then the game would have been up.

Yet another variable is what exactly one could do with the Ring. Saruman may or may not have been able to control Sauron's orcs. If not the problem becomes much more complex i.e. he would still have been heavily outnumbered.

And still, yet another variable was Saruman's ability as a general. He did not strike me as being militarily gifted. Now if he had the military ability of Napoleon he might have been able to pull it off, even if he were heavily outnumbered. However, he struck me more as having the military ability of Gomer Pyle so...

It seems like there are some variables that I have left out, but I can't remember them, and this post is long enough already.

Basically the whole key to this strategy is Saruman's ability to keep his secret, well, secret for as long as possible. The more time that he was able to gain, the better off that he would have been.

Comments, scalding criticisms, flaming rebukes? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Mayla Took · 03-01-2002, 06:12 PM

Ha ha! Very good points on all accounts (and I agree with you emmencly Kuruharan)! But the main point of reality is, that Sauraman is (or was) not cleaver, not smart and deffinatly not cunning! He was down right a moron! There are thousands of points where he could have turnd the course around for his favor but wasn't smart enought to do so! All I have to say is that due to Sauramon's idiocy, the Fellowship succeded!

Kuruharan · 03-01-2002, 08:57 PM

Thank you Mayla. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I'd agree that Saruman was actually partially responsible for the success of the Fellowship. All that distraction and bother he caused for Sauron.

Saruman definitely made some rather stupid mistakes, but I would not exactly characterize him as a moron. He became corrupted, and as your sig so aptly puts it he outgrew his hat.

That was the basic problem with his schemes, he could not really support them. He had no real realm, just Isengard. As Beleg said to Turin when they were in Amon Rudh a lord needs many things. Basically it boils down to an economic base. Denethor had the Kingdom of Gondor, Theoden had Rohan, Sauron had Mordor. Saruman had...well, he had a barren rock with a spire. He had great influence in Dunland, but I don't think he totally controlled the country.
As an example of what I am talking about, on another thread somebody was asking where they got their food in Mordor. Sauron grew much of it himself near the Inland Sea of Nurnen in the Lithlad (Ash Plain). Saruman got his food and other types of economic support from...... I'm sure you can see the point. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

(Hmm...this whole post seems to go against the my other one doesn't it?)

Aralaithiel · 03-01-2002, 09:30 PM

Well said, Kuruharan!
I defintely agree that Saruman was lacking a few key ingredients to become truly dominant, especially since he only had his tower. And I don't think he got out much to greet his public like the good politician. Definitely lacking in people skills! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

02-28-2002, 09:36 PM	#1
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Let us theorize. Saruman's treachery. How do the chips fall if Saruman doesn't reveal his true plans to Gandalf?

02-28-2002, 10:01 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,639	Hmm..., very interesting question. 1. Gandalf would not have been late, and would have been with Frodo & co. on their way to Rivendell, thus saving much excitement along the way, but not materially changing the story that much. 2. Saruman (perhaps) attends the Council of Elrond, which would have had a catastrophic effect on the Quest. He would have had Ugluk's merry band of fellows pounce on the Fellowship when they were wandering through the lands west of the Misty Mountains, or something. 3. The Fellowship is more willing to go through the Gap of Rohan on their way South and East. Game Over. This event would probably have been worse than Saruman attending the Council of Elrond. Pretty much, if Saruman had not revealed himself to Gandalf when he did, the chances that he would get the Ring greatly increase. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-01-2002, 06:11 AM	#3
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,184	Of course if Saruman falls on the fellowship at the Gap, and manages to get all of them back to Isengard as captives, Gandalf isn't free to rouse Theoden; Aragorn can't take the Paths of the Dead and Minas Tirith falls (not to mention that Merry and Pippin can't turn up in Fangorn just at the right time to spark off the rising of the Ents). Assuming that Saruman would be stupid enough to take up the Ring and challenge Sauron immediately (I think that he would; he seemed pretty confident of his power) the main army of Mordor then turns up at Isengard and pulls it to bits. Result: catastrophe; the rule of Sauron and Saruman ends up worse off than he does in the real story. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

03-01-2002, 06:26 AM	#4
Gorin Icearms Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 67	"The ring had given him power according to his stature" Gollum used the ring for petty sneakiness. But Saruman is a buff guy (magicwise), he had his own army of day-time orcs, was the head of the council, andhad a palantir. Of course Sauron had one too so he could prepare for an attack by Saruman. I don't know if having the ring would be enough to take Sauron down, but it would be one heck of a battle. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The Moon is Rising! Oh hey, I'm a wight now. WORSHIP ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

03-01-2002, 07:13 AM	#6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,184	I was thinking of the fact that Saruman was utterly outnumbered by the hosts of Mordor, with no buffer zone between himself and his rival (if Rohan is removed, which seems likely). I'm sure that Sauron wouldn't have given so much of himself to the Ring's making if he didn't gain some sort of advantage over other users and there are a number of references to the Ring's having but one master. Just look at the arrogant confidence with which he announces through the Palantir that he'll send for the Ring; it must have occurred to him that Saruman might try to challenge him, yet he can't even be bothered to deal with the matter personally. One could also see Galadriel's queen speech as a fantasy created by the Ring, akin to Sam's of making Mordor bloom, combined with a desire to frighten Frodo out of trusting the Wise unquestioningly (I'm sure that if the Ring was trying to turn her she was aware of it). It would be one hell of a battle, though. If he hadn't played his hand too soon, Saruman would have been in a position to destroy Rohan unimpeded, which in turn helps Sauron to reduce Gondor and leaves a straight contest between Mordor and Isengard. Not a pleasant thought, but I'm still fairly sure of the outcome. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

03-01-2002, 06:35 AM	#5
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Galadriel was convinced with the ring she would replace Sauron as a queen, and she was only an elf(even if she was nearly equal the Feanor) Saruman was a Maia. This is off subject, but if say Saruman were to get the ring, he wouldn't have that loss of personaly power that Sauron had to make the ring. eek.

03-01-2002, 07:16 AM	#7
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	If Saruman controled the ring, he would also control the Nazgul and perhaps all of Sauron's armies.

03-01-2002, 11:12 AM	#8
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,184	Good point. What if he couldn't control it properly, though? As I said earlier, Sauron didn't seem unduly worried when he thought that Saruman already held the Ring. Perhaps he built some sort of loophole into it against just such an eventuality. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

03-01-2002, 03:13 PM	#9
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Even if someone else claimed the Ring that does not mean that Sauron just disappears. The person who claims the Ring must still deal with Sauron. I do not believe that anyone in Middle Earth, with the exception of perhaps Gandalf the White could have defeated Sauron, even with the Ring. Galadriel says that if she took the Ring she would through down Sauron and become a dark queen. However, Tolkien stated that he was skeptical that Galdriel could have done this. Tolkien said the nature of the Ring is such that it corrupts the mind, making you believe that you are capable of great deeds (The vision of armies flocking to Boromir, Sam's vission of creating a garden in Gorgoroth, and Gollum's vision of punishing all those that were cruel to him and eating fish from the sea). Tolkein also said that if Galadriel was capable of doing this than Elrond would have been able to also (I'm sure red would agree with this [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) There would have to be a contest of will between whoever claimed the Ring and Sauron. Sauron might have been confident that he would have won such a contest against Saruman. After all he won such a contest against Saruman with the Ithil Palantir. [ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-01-2002, 05:13 PM	#10
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,639	All right, if Saruman had been smart here's what he would have done. He would have concealed his true mind from Gandalf. Given Gandalf an answer to satisfy the reason why he had come. Maybe even say something along the lines of, "Why Gandalf, my dear chap, why don't you bring this little Ring down here to Isengard and then the two of us could together decide on what to do with it." Even if he did not say that he should have let Gandalf depart thinking that he (Saruman) was still on the side of Good. Afterwards, if Gandalf had brought Frodo to Isengard then the Ring would have been his. If not, it is much more likely that the Fellowship would have travelled through the Gap of Rohan, maybe even to Isengard itself to consult with Saruman. Same ending. During the time that Gandalf would have been away, Saruman would have been visited by the Black Riders searching for the Ring. Saruman would have to come up with a very convincing story sending them off to the Iron Hills or some other place sufficiently remote to get them out of the picture for at least a little while. After Saruman got the Ring things would not really become less "interesting." As has been suggested, he probably could have more easily squashed Rohan with the Ring, but as has also been mentioned that would only expose him to the power of Mordor. Upon obtaining the Ring he should have continued his hidden course, continuing to pretend to serve Good to keep Rohan and Gondor as buffer states to shield him from the Red Eye. During the initial phases he should refrain from personally touching the Ring, and he would also have to break contact with Sauron through the Seeing Stones. What he should have been doing during this interval is continuing to build up his strength and doing all he can to aid Rohan and Gondor in their fight against Mordor. Obviously, Ugluk and Crew would have given the game away instantly, but I think that a horde of wild Dunlanders sent to aid Gondor and Rohan would have been welcomed. Sooner or later Saruman would have to gather himself and try to win mastery of the Ring. The moment that he did so Sauron, Galadriel, and Elrond would be aware of him (Gandalf you recall being out of the picture.) However, above all else he should still maintain the guise of serving Good for as long as possible. Obviously, this would not work with the Elves, but the Elves are not important. The Men and their large kingdoms protecting him from Mordor are. This is another reason Saruman must stop using the Stone, because Denethor would be aware of Saruman possessing the Ring and the game would be up. As a matter of fact, if possible, Saruman should not openly reveal that he has the Ring at all. The Elves and Sauron would know of course, but the humans did not trust the Elves (certainly not Galadriel) and Saruman should have made every effort to intercept messages between the more trusted Elrond and Gondor. Sauron would probably not even bother to tell his enemies what he knew, and if he tried they would have no reason to listen to him. Then would come the showdown. If all went well, Saruman would be commanding the forces of Gondor, Rohan, and Dunland against Mordor and most of the rest of the East and South. This is where things get unpredictable. If the Ring enabled the Bearer to actually command the orcs then Saruman should have brough his own in tow (hidden from his human allies) and then when the moment was right taken control of the orc hosts of Mordor, unleashed his own orcs from hiding, turned the Dunlanders against his erstwhile human allies (unless they submit to him of course), and kill every human (except the Dunlanders) in sight. Who knows, some of the Southrons and Easterlings might have switched sides seeing the "Great and Glorious Saruman of Many Colors" unveiled on the battlefield in all his splendor, but that would probably not really matter. Much of the course of the battle would also depend on the circumstances of the fight, and Saruman's ability as a commander. If he won this battle then Middle earth would have been his for the taking. There are obviously many, many problems, and holes in the above strategy. The biggest wildcard would have been Saruman's ability (or lack thereof) to control the Ring. Tolkien himself said that this was not possible so there goes the whole thing right there. However, since this is a speculative sort of thread, assuming that Saruman could control the Ring, there are still several variables. The most important is when he chose to try to assert his control of the Ring, what Sauron would have tried to do, and the role of the Nazgul. They probably would not have been able to do anything to him directly, but their fealty was to Sauron alone, he held their Nine Rings. They would certainly have tried something. Another variable is Denethor. If he somehow found out about all of this then the game would have been up. Yet another variable is what exactly one could do with the Ring. Saruman may or may not have been able to control Sauron's orcs. If not the problem becomes much more complex i.e. he would still have been heavily outnumbered. And still, yet another variable was Saruman's ability as a general. He did not strike me as being militarily gifted. Now if he had the military ability of Napoleon he might have been able to pull it off, even if he were heavily outnumbered. However, he struck me more as having the military ability of Gomer Pyle so... It seems like there are some variables that I have left out, but I can't remember them, and this post is long enough already. Basically the whole key to this strategy is Saruman's ability to keep his secret, well, secret for as long as possible. The more time that he was able to gain, the better off that he would have been. Comments, scalding criticisms, flaming rebukes? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-01-2002, 06:12 PM	#11
Mayla Took Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 152	Ha ha! Very good points on all accounts (and I agree with you emmencly Kuruharan)! But the main point of reality is, that Sauraman is (or was) not cleaver, not smart and deffinatly not cunning! He was down right a moron! There are thousands of points where he could have turnd the course around for his favor but wasn't smart enought to do so! All I have to say is that due to Sauramon's idiocy, the Fellowship succeded! __________________ Good Things Come in Small Packages. (And don't you forget it!) Pippin:"What is that?!?" Merry:"This, my friend, is a pint!" Pippin:"It comes in PINTS?!?....I'm getting one!" "Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive." Bilbo to Merry and Pippin "Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!" Gandalf to Pippin in Moria E-mail me at mailto:ThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.comThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.com</A> Oh, and please rate me. THANKS!

03-01-2002, 08:57 PM	#12
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,639	Thank you Mayla. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I'd agree that Saruman was actually partially responsible for the success of the Fellowship. All that distraction and bother he caused for Sauron. Saruman definitely made some rather stupid mistakes, but I would not exactly characterize him as a moron. He became corrupted, and as your sig so aptly puts it he outgrew his hat. That was the basic problem with his schemes, he could not really support them. He had no real realm, just Isengard. As Beleg said to Turin when they were in Amon Rudh a lord needs many things. Basically it boils down to an economic base. Denethor had the Kingdom of Gondor, Theoden had Rohan, Sauron had Mordor. Saruman had...well, he had a barren rock with a spire. He had great influence in Dunland, but I don't think he totally controlled the country. As an example of what I am talking about, on another thread somebody was asking where they got their food in Mordor. Sauron grew much of it himself near the Inland Sea of Nurnen in the Lithlad (Ash Plain). Saruman got his food and other types of economic support from...... I'm sure you can see the point. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (Hmm...this whole post seems to go against the my other one doesn't it?) __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-01-2002, 09:30 PM	#13
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Well said, Kuruharan! I defintely agree that Saruman was lacking a few key ingredients to become truly dominant, especially since he only had his tower. And I don't think he got out much to greet his public like the good politician. Definitely lacking in people skills! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"