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Old 01-26-2002, 01:36 AM   #41
Marileangorifurnimaluim
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What we're referring to here is ultimate and relative truth. They are co-emergent, so one does not negate the other. One person is tall only in relation to another who is shorter. That tall person will be short standing next to a basketball team. Even white is not an ultimate truth to any human, because white is also relative: to someone from China it represents death, to a European, purity. In an ultimate, non-referential, non-egoistic sense, short and tall are nonsense; the gradations of meaning of "white" are nonsense: without referencing self and other, this and that, they have no meaning. But the ultimate truth does not negate relative truth, because that would be taking ultimate as a reference point - making it relative to something. And no longer ultimate.

To relate this to the topic at hand, to really be speaking from the point of an ultimate truth, the relative interpretation has to be given due consideration. With awareness of its proper context.

As someone once said: Trust in God, but tie up your camel.

Tolkien said: "To please readers was my main object." And that covers his ultimate purpose, and incorporates relative latitude.
To say there was one ultimate preeminent meaning goes against both.

Oh, that was fun! Welcome aboard, River Jordan! I really appreciate your philosophical bent.

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 01-26-2002, 12:17 PM   #42
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I've posted these thoughts elsewhere, so pardon me if you're reading them again.

If you want Christian/Biblical allegory couched in fantasy, turn to C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia. Those have a creation, an obvious Christ figure, an obvious Satan figure, personal salvation stories, a character who turns her back on salvation, and a big Revelation-like finale.

Lord of the Rings has none of these. There are no references to God, period. None. While I certainly salute those who find religious meaning in LOTR, I suspect they carried those religious beliefs in with them in the first place.

As many others have pointed out, the heroic good-vs.-evil struggle can be seen as representing all sorts of ancient stories, not just Biblical ones. I grant that Tolkien's devout Christianity makes it probable that he was greatly influenced by the heroic good-vs.-evil struggles of the Bible; but going from there to the notion that LOTR is somehow a Biblical allegory is an enormous leap not supported by evidence. By that same logic, we would have to look for Biblical and Christian parallels in every work ever produced by any western writer. So, every time someone writes about good triumphing over evil, they're really writing about Christ's resurrection? C'mon.

The quote about LOTR being "fundamentally religious and Catholic" has been taken out of context many times. I am a church-going Christian who also happens to be a professional singer and songwriter. Every time I write a song it is a religious experience for me. But I have yet to write a song with Christian themes.

Again, I have no argument with those who say that they find religious meaning in LOTR. That's wonderful for you. But to say that the work is, by the author's intention, full of Christian and Biblical symbolism is quite another thing. And it is not an opinion shared by professional scholars who've spent their entire lives studying Tolkien and his writings. When I get my car repaired or want advice on a Medieval composer whose music I will be performing, I go to a professional. I think we can trust the professionals on this one too.

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: bombadil ]
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Old 01-26-2002, 01:50 PM   #43
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YOU SAID:
Quote:
Again, I have no argument with those who say that they find religious meaning in LOTR. That's wonderful for you. But to say that the work is, by the author's intention, full of Christian and Biblical symbolism is quite another thing. And it is not an opinion shared by professional scholars who've spent their entire lives studying Tolkien and his writings.
[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: bombadil ]
I wholeheartedly agree with you. As Tolkien himself has said, the work was not written with allegory in mind. Tolkien was a Christian, but LotR is not a Christian or Biblical allegory. The only point I was trying to make is that LotR has rich themes in it that agree with the Bible's teachings about good and evil. To help illustrate my point, let me compare Tolkien (if you will forgive me!) to (dare I mention it in this forum?) Harry Potter. I like Tolkien because in his works you have good that is distinctly good, and evil that is clearly evil. In Harry Potter, you find the so-called heroes who use all manner of evil (lying, rebelling against authority, etc. etc. etc.) to achieve their "good" ends. As Kurt Bruner says, "Tolkien's fantasy world, like our world, is one in which good protects and preserves while evil seeks to dominate and destroy...The ring, designed for evil, cannot be used for good, though well-meaning characters try. The more they surrender to its power, the weaker they become, and the more it becomes their master...The Lord of the Rings is a tale of redemption in which the main characters overcome cowardly self-preservation to model heroic self-sacrifice."

Anyway, all this "philosophizing" aside, I think the purpose of the Lord of the Rings is to be entertained by incredible literature, a wonderful story with fun and fantastic characters. We can discuss and debate all the inner-workings of the LotR novel, but I think Tolkien would be most pleased if we simply read - and enjoyed - the work! Just a thought...

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Old 01-27-2002, 01:53 PM   #44
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General agreement here, RJ. But I'm sure you didn't mean that the good guys in LOTR are purely good! Farmer Maggot wouldn't agree about Frodo, anyway . . .
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Old 01-27-2002, 07:15 PM   #45
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Much food for thot here. My only observation, whether we are speaking of reality or fantasy is that all are flawed whether good or evil. It is our choice or the choice of the author which determine our ultimate destiny and the destiny of any given character. How far down the divergent paths of good or evil any would go is a matter of choice. Many believe a predestined one by the Author of Life, Himself.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: Luineeldaiel ]
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Old 01-27-2002, 10:32 PM   #46
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ho bombadil!
YOU SAID: "General agreement here, RJ. But I'm sure you didn't mean that the good guys in LOTR are purely good! Farmer Maggot wouldn't agree about Frodo, anyway "

Of course not. I quoted Kurt Bruner earlier as having said: "The Lord of the Rings is a tale of redemption in which the main characters overcome cowardly self-preservation to model heroic self-sacrifice."

I was contrasting the good versus evil in Lord of the Rings with that of the modern Harry Potter where the "good guys" aren't really good. See what I mean here:

Harry disobeys teachers (SS, 148-150) lies (COS 128, 164, 209; POA 155, 246, 283-285) disobeys school rules (SS, 153-158, 209-213; COS, 164-165) steals (COS, 165-166) breaks wizard laws (SS, 237-241; COS, 69) cheats (GOF, 329, 341
Ron disobeys school rules (SS, 153-158, 209-213; COS, 164-165) lies (POA, 289) steals (COS, 165-166) break wizard laws (SS, 237-241; COS, 69) uses profanity/swears/off-color slang (COS, 259)
Hermione disobeys school rules (COS, 164-165) steals (COS, 165-166) cheats (GOF, 338-339)
Hagrid disobeys conditions of his employment (SS, 59, 64) breaks wizard laws (SS, 230-233, 237-241; GOF, 438) encourages children to break rules (SS 64, 237) cheats (GOF 329)
Mr. Weasley breaks wizard laws (COS, 31; GOF, 45, 61) lies to wife (COS, 66) uses profanity/swears/off-color slang (GOF, 43)
Fred & George disobeys school rules (POA, 192) disobeys parents (COS, 30; GOF, 88-89, 117, 367) breaks wizard laws (COS, 30) lies to parents (COS, 32)
Dumbledore lies (POA, 353)

In Lord of the Rings, there are consequences for our heroes when the good guys do the wrong things or give into temptation (i.e. every time Frodo uses the ring). In Harry Potter, the "good guys" do the wrong things / bad things but with no consequences. I like the ethics of LotR better than "Potter-ethics"!

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Old 01-28-2002, 03:15 AM   #47
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In my opinion, the Potter-books are actually a bit simpler - more childish, if you like - than LotR (and the rest of Tolkien's works). The Potter-books aims for children (although older people can certainly also enjoy them), while Hobbit, LotR, Sil, UT, etc. are more 'advanced' books (which can of course also be enjoyed by younger people, although I don't think an eight years old child would be able to enjoy Sil).

I do agree with you, River Jordan; I like 'LotR-ethics' better than 'Potter-ethics', but then again, I simply like Tolkien than Rowling.
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Old 01-29-2002, 11:37 PM   #48
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I find Potter to be a relief from the cloying saccharine Disney "good McKids."

I've noticed a number of Christian Tolkien fans putting a distance between the LotR and HP to keep it from being painted with the same brush (for those who don't know, there is concern HP would lead kids to develop interest in witchcraft). I'm all for that. Anything that keeps the picket lines full of people who haven't read the books from blocking my fifth viewing!

As a kid I was always insulted by the insistance TV, books, etc., could write my personality like I was a blank slate. I knew what was real and what wasn't, and had my own ethics (noticably higher than some).
Looking back, I'd say it was my family and friends, and the occassional live role model that had an impact on my life. Primarily my family. Even reading the LotR 14 times in jr. high & high school didn't have a bazillionth of the impact my mother had. The energy expended over HP would be better channelled into Big Brother/Big Sister programs for kids who don't have good role models in their family.

-Maril

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 01-30-2002, 12:14 AM   #49
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YOU SAID:

Quote:
I've noticed a number of Christian Tolkien fans putting a distance between the LotR and HP to keep it from being painted with the same brush (for those who don't know, there is concern HP would lead kids to develop interest in witchcraft). I'm all for that. Anything that keeps the picket lines full of people who haven't read the books from blocking my fifth viewing!
One of the reasons why I - as an Early Childhood Educator in my church - don't recommend the Harry Potter books to our children is of course for that very reason, that it can cause the children to become interested in real-world witchcraft and occultism. There is that very real danger, which the school boards in England had noticed, and for that very reason, are discussing and debating whether or not to ban the books from school libraries...
I already mentioned above another one of the reasons why I don't like Rowlings "Potter-ethics", and that's because the good are not really good, they are rather small and self-serving. (By the way, this comes from someone who is knowledgeable about the subject, having read all four of the Harry Potter books myself...)

I also agree with your comment, Marileangorifurnimaluim, that parents and people have (at least they should have, and thankfully in most cases do) the greatest influence on the values of our children. However, I also believe that people are influenced (note I said influenced, not controlled) by the music they listen to and the movies they watch, etc. The old adage, "Garbage in, garbage out."

A final thought about the Harry Potter books, they simply pale beside the great authors of fantasy literature like Tolkien and Lewis! It's amazing that they have become so popular, and it is notable that the primary reading audience is children, and not literary critics...

Anyway, having said all that, I thoroughly enjoy and support the Lord of the Rings, both as fantastic literature, and also as an enjoyable movie. (Working primarily with teens in my church, I find more of them have seen the movie than those who have read the books). Well, cheers!

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Old 02-02-2002, 04:16 PM   #50
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I like both for different reasons.

The fact Harry Potter isn't all good is what I find refreshing, and I enjoy the humor.

I enjoy the Lord of the Rings for it's depth and idealism. And I enjoy Tolkien's humor.

As far as witchcraft is concerned, I don't believe it exists. So a non-existent doesn't worry me. The two groups that believe in it, one opposes an imaginary concept, the other is a group of posers who visit scented candle shops and cultivate a mystique. The later is the more absurd.

I'll add: The real evil is hatred, greed, what different religions describe in various ways (the three poisons, the seven deadly sins, the ten non-virtues) but are pretty similar. Hatred for example, is a motive, as is greed. Someone who collects a bunch of religious material just to have something can be in principal just as greedy and accumulative as an investment banker. A kid who buys a rose-scented candle to help their friend's headache - well, it's not going to work, but the underlying motivation is positive. It's a mistake to condemn, say, Murphy Brown (if you remember Dan Quayle), and expect to have the sinners see the light and flock to the side of righteousness. In fact, this results in being laughed at by all but those who already agree.

Any action has multiple levels: the good/bad/neutral nature of the action, the motive driving it, and the attitude following it. Then there's the myriad causes that provoked it, and the effects it produces - the intended effects, and the unintended effects. The intended effects can be good or bad, as can the unintended effects (a bad intention can even accidentally cause something good - that's in fact how good can be produced in a negative environment, an oppressor can unintentionally be a cause of another's noble act; or someone intending harm can accidentally shove them out of the path of a speeding car).

Of these we have control over our motive, our choice of action, and our own attitude after. The internal causes. The effects we have no control over, no more than we can control the weather, because that would mean controlling others responses.
Garbage in, garbage out refers to computers, which mercifully we are not. Mandating good is as effective as Prohibition was in the 1920s.

What one can do however is teach, especially through example, the kind of positive self-discipline of action/motive/reflection. It's the mirror image of "give a man a fish.." in this case "Take away the poison, and they will desire it more. Give them something better, and they will never want anything less."

[ February 02, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 02-04-2002, 01:28 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tolkien118:
<STRONG><font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 3
</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Does anyone think that the Trilogy(Silmarilion, etc.) may be an allegorical representation of the Bible? If so which characters do you thing would represent whom and which events do you think would represent certain events in the Bible.

~just think

</p></STRONG>
my philosophy professor narrated that Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (of the Narnia Chronicles) are buddies who one day decided to tell the world of the Salvation History (the Exodus) through literature. hence you see themes of hope in humanity (Gandalf standing up to Elrond for Aragorn; and when he tells Frodo that even the littlest people can change the course of the world), trust in the Almighty's plans (Gandalf's famous lines to Frodo that goes something like "We do not choose what comes to us. WE must know how to use it when it does. or something), and other things.
hope that helped [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
 
Old 02-04-2002, 02:32 PM   #52
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I've been thinking about this topic a lot for the past couple or 3 weeks. In fact my subconcious won't leave it alone!

Besides the obvious similarity in the healing powers of Aragorn and Christ (and thus their identification as King and Messiah respectively), I've found about 15 or 20 other similarities. I'm trying to write it up in some kind of readable essay, but typing up the dozens of quotes alone is very time consuming.

Anyway, my theorem about the reason there appears to be no definitive "Christ figure" in tLotR" is because it takes 3 characters to represent Christ: Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn. A trinity if you will! (Ugghhh!) Read again the passage about the crowning of Aragorn to see how closely intertwined these characters are for achievng "The Return of the King".

Frodo bears the burden and "dies" to save the world. (He cannot return to a normal hobbit life.) Gandalf sacrifices himself for his friends and is reborn. He also is the flame or "Holy Spirit" that encourages the Fellowship to act. (Pentecost is discussed in Acts 2.) Aragorn lives a fully human life as did Jesus.

I've got 10+ pages on how Aragorn's story is similar to Jesus'. Here's a partial list.
* detailed genealogy to legitimize claim
* similar childhoods - naming of the child, foster/adoptive father, hiding child from enemy
* mothers' feelings when confronted with prophecies about their sons (not exactly the same, but both mentioned)
* coming of age stories (at 20 and 12 years respectively)
* temptation by the Devil or the Ring - offer of earthly power
* both predict the end of the Age - which relates to the next...
* the reforging of the Sword and the separation of Arwen & Elrond by Aragorn remind me of Matthew 10:34-38
* the various names, titles, descriptors of both - some are similar if you stretch it
* healing powers - already discussed
* entering and then leaving "the City" on the day they are hailed as King and Messiah
* "communion" or drinking from a common cup occurs many times in tLotR, but Aragorn's farewell to Éowyn before he takes the Paths of the Dead brings to mind the Last Supper
* the many Transfigurations of Aragorn (a BIG one) - I count 10 instances at least.
* Aragorn's decision to find and save Merry and Pippin rather than follow Frodo reminds me of the Parable of the Lost Sheep.
* Aragorn hears Boromir's deathbed confession. He never tells anyone what Boromir did. Only he and Frodo know. (Priest?)
* their roles as Judge at the end of the War or at the end of time
* Frodo and Sam sit on the right and left sides of Aragorn's throne - much debate among disciples as to who was going to get this honour in Jesus' kingdom. (See also Rev 5:13 - is Frodo the Lamb and Aragorn the one who "sits on the throne"?)
* Aragorn has his apostles or followers - male and female - as did Jesus - Sons of Elrond, Halbarad, Éowyn, Éomer, Imrahil, Gimli and Legolas.
* the preparation of the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen has a hint of the Wedding Feast of Canaan (water into wine - saving the best 'til last)

Want more detail? Quotes? Let me know. Like I said it's VERY LONG. And I'm sure it's not original. (I see in another thread Movies: LOTR fanatics.. read on.. help? that I should probably read "Finding God in 'The Lord of the Rings'" – author?)

Post Script:
I was interested in this topic as a literary exercise only. For fun. I don't believe the idea that there is any Christ figure in LOTR. It's not an allegory. I just thought it would be interesting to explore imagery and story elements common to both these pieces of literature (and others). For example, why are "coming of age" stories so important to people? (Frodo's is also told in LOTR.)

After reading some of the messages here, I've concluded that I don't have the stomach or the thick skin needed to write up this piece of fluff. Not to mention the time.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]
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Old 02-04-2002, 02:52 PM   #53
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Lostgaeriel, sounds like you have the makings of an article that could be published on the Downs's main website if you care to pull it all together!
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Old 02-04-2002, 03:13 PM   #54
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Oh my God! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] What have I done? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Well, Mister Underhill, I'll keep plugging away. Thanks for the encouragement. But when will I have time to do some more comics? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 02-04-2002, 04:57 PM   #55
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Lostgaeriel:
The authors of "Finding God in Lord of the Rings" are Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware. I found it @ my local Christian bookstore. I think your research is amazingingly thorough!!! It would indeed be worth publishing. I would someday like to compile a list of all the wise sayings which often parallel biblical thots, eg., "Even the smallest person can change the course of the world," perhaps a baby in a manger? Thanks for all your insights!!!
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Old 02-04-2002, 08:13 PM   #56
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Lostgaeriel:
That was wonderful. I have been thinking about this since I read the books too. I am deeply spiritual and see many references to Biblical things in these books. Could you please send me the whole thing, and I would love to chat with you about some things that I have observed. Email me at KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com
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Old 02-04-2002, 10:12 PM   #57
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I'm sympathic to spiritual perspectives, for obvious reasons, and not surprised at all that so many Tolkien fans are deeply spiritual. Not surprised one bit.

But given Tolkien so openly disliked allegory, and made it undeniably clear that such was not his intent, we are then extrapolating what we wish to see in his books. Fair enough.

But opening that particular door is opening
Pandora's box.

We are obliged then to allow other prevarications that have only a tenuous, tangental, purely theoretical interpretive relationship to the Lord of the Rings. In a word: we'd need to bring back Eve. And not complain about it. At least with homoerotic subtext there is no direct quotes from Tolkien emphatically denying it. Although I'm sure there would be, if someone had thought to ask. If we're gonna 'blue-sky' here, and have some spiritual fun (face it, you guys are having a blast picking out the quotes from Matthew) we'll just have to respect other unsupportable blue-sky theories. Including implausible ring-representing-marriage theories, WWII theories (which Tolkien has also emphatically denied), race theories, you name it.
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Old 02-05-2002, 01:07 AM   #58
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Quote:
...implausible ring-representing-marriage theories...
Implausible?! How dare you! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The board is open to theories of all shapes and sizes, subject to the ability of our membership to maintain a reasonable level of self-control and to keep the discussion within hailing distance of Tolkien. Even your homoerotic inquiry that foreshadowed the later, more explosive thread to which you allude was conducted at a reasonably intelligent level. In the case of Eve, the moderators bent over backwards to protect the integrity of the board’s policy of freedom of expression; the aforementioned thread was eventually closed not because of the ideas expressed, but rather because of the discussion styles employed and because the thread eventually wandered hopelessly off-topic. WWII threads have arisen in the past, but since the parallels quickly break down (and since WWII isn’t exactly a controversial hot-button topic), they’ve never picked up much steam. Other theories (I’m thinking in particular of a certain complex of Ring-symbolism analysis here) are perhaps ahead of their time, and are met with scorn, confusion, misunderstanding, or just plain old apathy – cases of pearls before swine and all that, you know, which nevertheless create relatively little fuss.

Religion is a notorious hot-button topic, yet we’ve had surprisingly little ruckus over it here, for a variety of reasons. One is that it’s difficult to assert that there’s no Christian content in LotR. Even if we take the prof at his word, the simple fact is that Tolkien was as outspoken about his religion as he was in his denials of allegorical content. It would be rather amazing if certain symbols and motifs from his belief system weren’t found within his magnum opus, even if the prof consciously intended a completely religion-free work. Probing for these parallels isn’t necessarily the same as claiming allegorical intent or content.

Another reason that religious discussion has never gotten far out of hand is that the prof was successful after all – his references to Christianity are so abstract and his anti-allegorical intentions so pure that he’s made no controversial claims which might give rise to doctrinal battles. You can see shades of Christianity (and other religions and cultural mythos, perhaps, if you like), but you ultimately have to accept Middle-earth for what it is – a “sub-creation” and not an allegory.
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Old 02-05-2002, 02:28 PM   #59
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[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Bravo, Mister Underhill!!!!!
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Old 02-05-2002, 03:47 PM   #60
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Welcome to the Downs, Luin. Suddenly there seem to be a lot of us (some former) MI people about...

Touche Mr. U. Actually, I was very careful to refer specifically to the allegorical intentions of Tolkien. Otherwise I contradict myself from my post earlier in this thread. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

So long as we ignore Tolkien's intentions, the Christian influence, the influence of WWII, of being an orphan, male bonding during war (and whatever subtext you may derive), all are there whether he willed them or no.

But I feel Tolkien sought to strike a more universal chord, or why deny the immediate embrace of Christian allegorists? I believe he mentioned his dream to create a truly English epic, more suitable than Mallory's. I also I believe he succeeded. Perhaps several colonies beyond his intentions.

Why deny the Christian theorists their fun? Or the political commentators on WWII?
He wanted everyone to enjoy his books.
  • To avoid the ownership of his epic by an exclusive club, (Christian or otherwise).
  • Whereupon it would be further exclusively owned by a particular view. (Protestant? Catholic?)
  • And thereupon, further removed from his intended audience, to a more specific corner of that spirallingly ever smaller world.

Those who territorially claim the LotR as a solely Christian work *vision of dog at fencepost* over Tolkien's own protests, is to miss the juxtapoint between his Christian views, those protests, and vision for his epic.

But blue-sky theories, that don't attempt to be exclusionary, don't violate the spirit of his works at all.
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Old 02-07-2002, 04:38 PM   #61
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I sort of stepped out of this discussion (I soon realized that it went to a higher league than the one I'm playing in) and just lurked at it from time to time, and I have to say: this is probably one of the best I have seen. You guys are simply amazing!

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Old 02-07-2002, 07:43 PM   #62
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I usually stay out of discussions of this sort, but as this thread has accumulated so many posts I decided to take a peek. In my opinion, one tends to interpret what one reads according to one's world-view. It is thus not surprising that Christians seek religious references in Tolkien's works. Oddly enough, some early criticisms of LoTR included arguments that it was anti-Christian or even pagan in nature. One does not have to look very hard to find such criticisms (even contemporary ones - a church website recently warned parents against letting their children read Tolkien). Clearly, LoTR lacks any overt references to religon. In Letters, Tolkien frankly admits this. There are no churches or temples. Yet if one goes beyond LoTR to the Silmarillion, there is an odd combination of monotheism (Eru) and paganism (the Valar, called the Gods in early drafts). However, by LoTR Eru and the Valar "only peep through" and while there is a form of recognition of both Eru and the Valar in the Men of the West and the Elves, they are remote... "there would be no temple of the True God while Numenorean influence lasted." (Letters, No.156).

Tolkien's quotes, repeated often in other posts, about lack of allegory and no conscious injection of Christianity, need not be repeated and should be taken at face value. To do otherwise is to call Tolkien a liar, and I do not believe he was. So what is the source of inspiration found in Tolkien's writings which is so often interpreted as religious allegory?

As he said, he wanted to write a good yarn. Interpret this as he wanted to write a story he himself would like to read. And what did Tolkien enjoy? Northern, Norse and Icelandic Mythology... fairy stories as he states in an essay. Many scholarly works are dedicated to Tolkien's writing with most attributing his inspiration, if not his sources, as the Icelandic Eddas. It is suggested that Turin is a direct rip-off of Kullervo from those tales (gotta read those Eddas someday).

But JRRT did not just rewrite old myths. He wrote his own tales, perhaps in a style or genre that he himself enjoyed. But as he wrote them, he inserted his own world-view via the ethics, logic and morals of Middle Earth. Thus no bad deed ultimately goes unpunished; good triumphs over evil; loyalty, steadfastness, determination in the face of adversity, honor and duty are virtues. Tolkien's Judeo-Christian world-view seeps into his writing unavoidably and does so over and over again. But Middle Earth and its characters are not based upon the Bible, purposefully (he expressly denies this over and again) or otherwise. What can be found in Middle Earth, the Men of the West, Hobbits and more or less the Elves and Dwarves are the values, ethics and morals which JRRT cherished (which happen to be Judeo-Christian as was he, but not exclusively so -- most religons espouse the same principles) as well as a ripping good series of stories in the style he loved. As such, his work, in a way, transcends and is loved by Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Atheists, etc. Yet none can (or should) claim it as their own -- this was not what he intended. He wanted to write a good yarn and he did. And if people find inspiration in his writing, all the better.
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:57 AM   #63
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Letter 142:
Quote:
The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.
...[No 'cults' or practiced religions in LotR]...
For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.[/i]
Letter 165:
Quote:
[LotR] is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion'. ... It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. ... I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world.
Tolkien didn't write LotR with preaching in mind, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a Christian book. Tolkien himself says so, but I think that he doesn't mean the same kind of a "Christian book" as many of you seem to think of "Christian books". To me, a Christian book might not be more than a book in accord with the Christian moral teachings - the LotR certainly is - and if a book is "Christian" it isn't necessarily intended to be Christian and Christian alone. A Christian book can be enjoyed by anyone, and its moral import can be valuable for anyone (like it has been said, most major world religions believe in the same kind of ideals).

I, as a Christian, did not (at the first reading) notice any particular religious symbolism in LotR. After I had read the Silmarillion and other posthumously published works it became clear to me how religious Tolkien actually was. On my later rereadings of LotR I have noticed the similarities between the morals taught by Christ and the morality of the good characters in LotR. That doesn't mean that LotR is allegorical, just that it shares the same basic beliefs of human nature as the Bible - and therefore I think that it's accurate and proper to call it a Christian book, especially as the author confirmed that it was written with Christian ideals in mind.


Mithadan, where did you find a quote saying that Tolkien didn't consciously inject Christianity to LotR? There are quotes where he says that it isn't about religion, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any religious ideas there... they're embedded to the story and its symbolism.

PS. The story of Kullervo is not in the Norse Eddas, but in the Finnish Kalevala. Also, I think that it's quite far-fetched to say that Tolkien 'directly ripped off' the story of Kullervo, but there are definitely similarities and even 'directly ripped off' (if you want to use such a phrase) elements.
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:58 AM   #64
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(A double post)

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Elenhin ]
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Old 02-08-2002, 04:58 PM   #65
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Quote:
In my opinion, one tends to interpret what one reads according to one's world-view.
Absolutely, Mithadan. And I also agree that Tolkien's own Christian sensibilities seep into the work throughout. How could they not?

It's an interesting point about Tolkien's goal of a "ripping good yarn" that he himself would enjoy reading. Excellent point, and I think that's the bottom line.

Elenhin, the religious philosophy of the LotR was not apparent to me, either. I think it's because it really is a ripping good yarn not intended to be spiritual in any specific way. The Silmarillion is utterly different, it's a very mystical work. Christian.. that's a hard case to make.

Religions almost universally agree on ethics. Ethics are remarkably similar from one religion to the next. The differences tend to be in the explanation as to why, the philosophy.

To demonstrate that the LotR is specifically Christian then requires not a listing of Christian ethics, which are common to most if not all religions, but a demonstration that the LotR's religous philosophy is definitively Christian in the ways that Christianity differs from other religions.

Tough to do, since it really doesn't refer to Christ (which is the main difference between Christianity and Judaism), and straddles the line between Mono- and Polytheism as Mithadan mentions. It can be done, but usually by referring to the LotR as an allegory. Which Tolkien staunchly refuted, not because he wasn't religious, but because that wasn't what he wrote it for.

With a narrow monocle, a keyhole point of view, a Hindu or Buddhist can point to the reincarnation of the Elves as demonstrating the LotR is Eastern in it's philosophy, as reincarnation is stoutly refuted by the Catholic Church (I can't speak for the various Protestant views). With a similar keyhole point of view, we can point to specific similarities to Christianity. But it has to hit all the main buttons to call it Christian.

Even if we could find all those key points, for either Christianity or Eastern religions, that would still misdirect away from the intent of Tolkien's work. (Though it might be a fun blue-sky theories to toy about.)

Quote:
One does not have to look very hard to find such criticisms (even contemporary ones - a church website recently warned parents against letting their children read Tolkien).
This is one reason in most places I've stayed out of the discussion. It's similar to the situation between some Hindu sects and Buddhists. Some Hindus feel the Buddha was a manifestation of Krishna. The Buddhists don't agree, but this conclusion causes such a convenient spirit of cooperation that it's best left alone.

Generally, I appreciate the common ground that we all like the Lord of the Rings, for all our various reasons. But I couldn't resist such an intelligent thoughtful (and polite) spiritual discussion.

-Maril

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 02-08-2002, 10:33 PM   #66
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I agree with Mr. Underhill. I can see those characteristics of Gandalf as being Christlike. The sacrificial theme of the book relates well to scripture, too. The characters each had a role to play, mostly sacrificing their own well-being to fulfill the larger purpose of their lives. Just as God created us as individuals, distinctly different and with a purpose for our lives, so do the characters in LOTR. As stated, because Tolkien was a Christian his life could not be separate from his writing even unconsiously it had to seep through.
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Old 02-09-2002, 05:42 PM   #67
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So we ALL agree that one can interpret Tolkien as one wishes, Christian or non-Christian. Let's get that straight and stop bringing up that particular angle.

What we disagree on is Tolkien's intent. And it's clear from his writings that he had no intention of writing a Christian allegory.

We can argue for centuries about how his Christianity affected his writing, and of course it did. But that doesn't make LOTR an allegory. So Gandalf, Frodo and Aragorn could together represent a Jesus figure? That's a real stretch and not at all typical of allegory. By that same logic, I could pick almost any book off of my shelf and find three characters who could represent parts of Jesus. I can think of episodes of Star Trek that would meet the criteria. Kirk (the leader), Spock (the philosopher who dies and returns to life) and McCoy (the healer) are the first to come to mind, but there are many other possibilities. Does that make Star Trek a Christian allegory? Gimme a break.

As I've said before, Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia is Christian allegory. LOTR is not. It's a simple definition -- look it up in your dictionary. If you want to go through LOTR and other books finding religious meaning, that's wonderful for you and I wish you well in your spiritual journey. But we shouldn't put intentions in Tolkien's pen that were never there in the first place. That's dangerous for the book, dishonorable to the writer, and dishonest for the reader.
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Old 02-09-2002, 06:03 PM   #68
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Hi! Ok, I'm new and haven't had time to read through all of this, but...

I want to say:
a) that since Tolkien himself said that he hates allegory and it's not allegorical, we may as well accept that.
b) Tolkien himself also said that it's a profoundly religious work, and it's obvious that his Christian worldview plays out in the books... we may as well accept that too.


All that said...
I find it very interesting that Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn do not recognize Gandalf when he first returns in The Two Towers... that made me immediately think of Jesus and the way in which those who encountered him after his resurrection didn't recognize him... the parallel would seem a bit too strong to be coincidental... if it weren't for the fact that Tolkien explicitly says it wasn't an intended paralel...

But I find that interesting and thought I'd mention it...
 
Old 02-10-2002, 09:27 PM   #69
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Welcome to the Downs, Angus Og. Meaty topic for your first post. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think yours and Goldwine's post brings us back to Mithadan's point. We interpret according to our own mindset. A non-Christian wouldn't even notice a parallel.

It's just natural. Once you think someone is dead, you don't expect them to come walking up to you in Fangorn forest. Haven't you ever bumped into someone you didn't expect to see, and not recognized them at first?

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Old 02-11-2002, 01:08 AM   #70
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I do not have time to read everything written here, so I am sorry if someone already said this. But I think it is odd that the person people associate with Jesus (Gandalf) seems to go around performing witchcraft and such that is prohibited in The Bible. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Im sorry. I had to say it.
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Old 02-11-2002, 08:30 PM   #71
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Oh, the wizards didn't practice witchcraft or necromancy (unlike the Witch-King of Angmar). A little deeper knowledge of the Silmarillion reveals that the wizards were Maiar, which some people liken to lesser angels, sent to help Middle Earth. I don't think Gandalf represents Jesus (any more than head-chopping Aragorn) but I do see the tenuous basis for the wishful thinking.
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Old 02-11-2002, 10:33 PM   #72
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Hi all,

I think what pops up in the Trilogy are a series of types-and-shadows rather than a streamlined allegory. Gandalf exhibits a few Christlike qualities; so does Aragorn; so does Frodo; so does Sam, and even Merry and Pippin. Lots of folks exhibit differing qualities we can compare to Christ. In that way, the trilogy could be compared to the Old Testament; there is no one figure foreshadowing Jesus, but there are lots of folks who display a quality or two.

The question that i wish I could ask Tokien is, 'So you say that "The trilogy is of course a fundamentally Christian work, unconsciously so at first, and consciously so in the revision." Dear Professor, exactly what did you consciously revise to make it more Christian?' I've often wondered.
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Old 02-11-2002, 10:44 PM   #73
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I think, Elendur, that there is a big difference between "witchcraft" and "magic".
Witchcraft involves dark incantations evoking evil. Magic is merely extenstion into the extraordinary. Hope this helps to clarify things for you.
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Old 02-11-2002, 11:04 PM   #74
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Quote:
Witchcraft involves dark incantations evoking evil.
I have a serious problem with that remark, as a practicing wiccan (witch). I have yet to use any dark incantations or any evoking of evil.
Excuse my interruption - I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]
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Old 02-11-2002, 11:55 PM   #75
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[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I was wondering if any Wiccans would turn up.
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Old 02-12-2002, 09:53 AM   #76
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Tolkien

I'm sure that Tolkien got inspiration from the Bible - many places! - But it's not a 'translation' of the Bible in any way...

Did you know the place Abraham did not (he nearly did..)kill Isac was called Moria?
And there is an unknown place/mountain in Israel called Moria - And some believe the other Moria is where Christ was crucified? (And some believe the two places are the same place...)

But, i don't believe Gandalf (who died for the others and resurrected again in Moria)
is a symbol for Christ all the way through the story - but some times you can think you have heard the story before in a way - and think of the Bible - and the next scene they act very 'non-biblish'...
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Old 02-12-2002, 03:27 PM   #77
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I'm new at this, and I'm not really sure what I'm doing, but I couldn't resist adding my two cents. First of all, I would like say what an honor it is to get to watch those of you with more understanding of the books than I in action. I am very impressed with your posts. Lostgaeriel, your list was magnificent. I myself, had drawn some of the same parallels, but not to the extent that you had. Thanks for the insight. As for the main subject of this forum, I do not believe that lotr is an allegory in the slightest. I agree with the person who commented about it being more of a series of types. There are similarities there, but this was not merely just a retelling of the Bible. Also, I , as a Christian, see parallels that most people wouldn't see. I have the Bible as my background and as my basis for everything, and so I would naturally see parallels that someone who hasn't read the Bible would not. Just because I see them, doesn't mean they're there, but that is my personal opinion. I reserve the right to be wrong, but that is what I think.
 
Old 02-12-2002, 06:31 PM   #78
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Lostgaeriel, I went back and re-read your post, and I have to tell you, I loved it! I'm with Mister Underhill, this is definitely article material. By the way, Mister Underhill, I am enjoying your comments very much. Keep posting. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
 
Old 02-12-2002, 09:55 PM   #79
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Im sorry if my witchcraft comment seemed a little misinterpreted. I know Gandalf did not use his 'magic' for bad purposes, but I remember reading in The Bible sometimes false prophets would perform minor miracles like making fire appear with no tinder and stuff like that. Gandalf is a very firey kindof wizard, so I made that connection.
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Old 02-15-2002, 12:25 AM   #80
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I am sorry if I offended you Bruce. I had no intention of doing so. I am a Christian and know very little about witches of any variety.
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