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Old 10-23-2017, 10:32 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Myths Transformed

To bring the discussion about the MT material forward, I will provide here a simple list of the elements in these text that I can identify as new. I will number these for easier reference in the farther discussion with MT-XX-yy wherein XX is the number of the text in MT and yy the number of the story element. I will first only identify the elements and give my commentaries later.

While working on that list thought to bring it the thread about chapter 1 Of the Beginning of Time. But as the list became longer and longer and drifted to many themes that if taken will form part of other chapters I think it is better to discuss them in this separate thread.

MT-Ia-01: Elvish loremasters know about round earth. => Round Earth cosmology is true from the start.

MT-Ia-02: The Silmarillion is a Manish tradition.

MT-Ib-01: The Great Tales must be manish.


MT-IIa-01: Sun and Moon must be much older than the Elves.

MT-IIa-02: Elvish legends must be more in accordance to at least the shape of the solar system.

MT-IIa-03: The stars are remoter parts of Eä.

MT-IIa-04: Varda cannot be said to have kindled the star in general.

MT-IIa-05: The Valar chose the place of Arda themselves

MT-IIa-06: Manwë and his friends alluded Melkor and begin the making of Arda without him.

MT-IIa-07: Melkor disarrays the Sun.

MT-IIa-08: Melkors first desire and weapon had been fire and heat.

MT-IIa-09: It was in the wielding of Flame that Tulkas defeated Melkor in the first battle.

MT-IIa-10: After the defeat Melkor turns to secrecy to cold and darkness.

MT-IIa-11: Valar create the moon to counteract to Melkors strategy of darkness.

MT-IIa-12: Melkors attack on Arie, in which she is released from Eä.

MT-IIa-13: Melkor captures the Moon for a time.

MT-IIa-14: After the death of the trees Tilion returns to the Moon.

MT-IIa-15: Valar can not drive Melkor out due to the strength of Utumno.

MT-IIa-16: Varda has preserved some of primeval light. With that the trees are made and Valinor is build.

MT-IIa-17: At the end of the days of bliss Melkor had driven the Valar out of Middle-earth.

MT-IIa-18: Melkor darkens the world by clouds.

MT-IIa-19: Manwe fights Melkors darkness with wind. When he has blown away the veil for a time the Elves awacke.

MT-IIa-20: The clouds still linger around after Battle of Utumno.

MT-IIa-21: The march of the Elves is through great rains.

MT-IIa-22: Men awake during a flood on an isle. Only when the world is drier they leave the isle.

MT-IIa-23: Men search for light in the east since from there the sun comes. Only after contact with Elves Men go West (follow the Sun).

MT-IIa-24: Because of the Fall of Men, Melkor is still in Middle-earth during the period of the Great March of the Elves, when Men awake.


MT-IIb-01: Uncounted Ainur labouring in other parts of Eä.

MT-IIb-02: Arda is self healing due to the beginning without Melkor.

MT-IIb-03: Melkor desiring to be exceedingly bright.

MT-IIb-04: Iluvatars gift of holy light to Varda.

MT-IIb-05: Melkors attack on the Sun takes place during First Battle. Melkor is burned black by it.

MT-IIb-06: Tulkas and Orome search for Melkor while he lay hidden in Utumno in the uttermost East.

MT-IIb-07: Valar are grieved that Melkor has turned to darkness and okupies night.

MT-IIb-08: Valar make Moon out of stuff from Earth or like to Earth.

MT-IIb-09: Melkor leaves Ambar after rising of the Moon.


MT-III-01: After the death of the Trees Valinor was unveiled.

MT-III-02: Valinor was covered by the dome of Varda.


MT-IV-01: Varda being associated to stars by reasons of demiurgic period and by the fashioning of the dome.

MT-IV-02: Varda had played little part in the Music but listened intently being therefore well foresighted.


MT-V-01: Trees must be illuminated / kindle by light before Melkor meddled with the Sun.

MT-V-02: The attack of Melkor on the Sun and the Moon must therefore be after the establishment of Valinor.


MT-VI-01: Melkor must be made far more powerful.

MT-VI-02: Melkor is the greatest power under Eru, meaning the greatest created power.

MT-VI-03: Melkor drives Valar out of Middel-earth, before they establish Valinor.

MT-VI-04: War against Utumno with out hope of victory, success was a surprise for both sides.

MT-VI-05: Melkor has ‘dispersed’.

MT-VI-06: Melkor rejects repentance and makes a mockery of selfabasement and repentance to penetrate Valinor.

MT-VI-07: Melkor sues in Utumno for pardon and goes unbound to Valinor.

MT-VI-08: Only the council of the Valar send Melkor to Mandos.


MT-VII-01: Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth.

MT-VII-02: Mogoth had become permanently incarnate.

MT-VII-03: Morogth was afraid to loss his beloved body

MT-VII-04: Sauron inherited the corruption of Arda.

MT-VII-05: Sauron was wiser than Melkor, because he had paid more attention to the Music.

MT-VII-06: Melkor’s greatest time was the physical beginning.

MT-VII-07: Morgoth nihilism was all his aspects.

MT-VII-08: Saurons virtue was love of order and dislike of all confusion and wasteful friction

MT-VII-09: Sauron was infected by Morgoth lust for destruction

MT-VII-10: No one can read the mind of other ‘equal beings’

MT-VII-11: A mind can reveal itself to another mind, but if that is complete is in question.

MT-VII-12: It is forbidden to force a revelation of a mind by any means.

MT-VII-13: Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind.

MT-VII-14: Manwe staing at home has literary reasons: Since he could not be in danger of absolute defeat there could not be any real adventures with him.

MT-VII-15: The concept: ‘the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth’s Ring’

MT-VII-16: Morgoth had to be fought mainly by physical force

MT-VII-17: Complete victory over Morgoth neede a complete disintegration of the matter of Arda.

MT-VII-18: The Valar become more and more impotent: The longer the past, the more nearly defined the Future.

MT-VII-19: Last effort of demiurgic kind by the Valar was the lifting of the Pelori in the Hidding of Valinor. Which can be considered as a mistake.

MT-VII-20: Ulmo disapproved of the lifting of the Pelori.

MT-VII-21: Manwe’s action time with precision using the Noldor as tool to keep Morogth at bay long enough to bring Edain to full stature and taking out Morgoth at exactly the point when Elves were mostly willing to depart and leaf Middle-earth to the dominion of Man and before Man and Elves are annihilated.

MT-VII-22: Morogth was executed after the War of Wrath. His physical body was destroyed.

MT-VII-23: The fading of the Elves

MT-VII-24: The concept of Arda heald

MT-VII-25: Melkor’s impotence: The evil things appeared out the discord of the themes of Eru and Melkor, not out of Melkor’s plans.

MT-VII-26: The Orcs hated Melkor.


MT-VIII-01: Orcs must be corruptions of something pre-existing

MT-VIII-02: Eru would not sanction a work of Melkor like the Dwarves were of Aule.

MT-VIII-03: Melkor could not make the corruption of the Orcs heritable.

MT-VIII-04: Huan and Thorondor are Maiar.

MT-VIII-05: Orcs can be Maiar which as well practises when embodied procreation

MT-VIII-06: Dwindled Orc-state a Poltergeist?

MT-VIII-07: Melkor’s corrupting power starts always on moral or theological level.

MT-VIII-08: Orcs are beasts without fëa whom Melkor taught language.

MT-VIII-09: Huan and the Eagles are as well beast raised by the Valar and thought language.

MT-VIII-10: Possibilty of Elvish strain in Orcs

MT-VIII-11: mating of beasts and later Men with these Elvish orcs.

MT-VIII-12: Orcs of that kind would be held in prison in Mandos until the End.

MT-VIII-13: Wills Orcs and Balrogs are part of Melkor’s power ‘dispersed’.


MT-IX-01: The Name Orok was originaly applied to phantoms (spirits assuming visible forms)

MT-IX-02: Trolls where from elvish point of view orks.

MT-IX-03: Trolls were corruptions of primitive human types.


MT-X-01: No Orks of the later kind were meet in Cuivienen.

MT-X-02: Earliest time for the awakening of men not long before the Great March began.

MT-X-03: Oeks were mortal and even short-lived compared to Edain.

MT-X-04: Concept of Boldogs as Maiar in Orkish shapes.

MT-X-05: Men could mate with Orcs, producing new breads.

MT-X-06: Saruman parctisied this Men / Orc breeding.

MT-X-07: Orks always remained within the Law => no cruelty and treachery no torment of captives, granted mercy if surrendered.

MT-X-08: Sauron had greater control over his Orks than had Morgoth

MT-X-09: Sauron had done the dirty job of Ork breading after the concept had been invented by Melkor

MT-X-10: Orks were already in existence before Melkor’s captivity.

MT-X-11: Use Ork instade of Orc


MT-XI-01: Concept of all inhabitants of Aman (Valar, Maiar, Elves, beats and plants) grow in accordance with the Ageing of Arda that means for them a Valian Year (of 144 Years of the Sun) corresponds in appearance to a Year of the Sun for us.

MT-XI-02: The Valar could live in any speed of time they chose.

MT-XI-03: In Aman were counterparts of all creatures that are or had been in Middle-earth and others that were made for Aman only.

MT-XI-04: In Aman the Elves did not fade.

MT-XI-05: In Aman Men would be the most swift-passing of all creatures.

MT-XI-06: Man would all the more envy they Elves

MT-XI-07: If Mans hröa would become immortal in Aman, the fëa would soon revolt against the hröa. If hröa wins that fight the fëa would case to be active and Man would life on tortured from it fëa but seeking endless bodily pleasures. If fëa will win it either kills the hröa by violence or leaves it resulting in a living witless body.

Respectfully
Findegil
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