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Old 05-14-2018, 12:28 PM   #1
Findegil
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Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations

This is the first draft of the chapter Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations in the part The Black Years.

There is no Basic Text in this chapter and I will give source information for each part that is used. They are mostly from The Five Wizards in HoME 12 and The Istari from UT.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

FW-SL-zz for Five Wizards, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.
Quote:
BY-HL-11<The Five Wizards Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations
> FW-SL-01<The Istari {Most of the remaining writings about the Istari (as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illegible. Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of}Therefore a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë {("}and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel{?")}/was held/, at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. {"}Who would go? ... Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (FW-SL-02{and it is remarked in parentheses that "}Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained FW-SL-03{," apparently to explain Manwë's choice}). But Olórin declared ... and that he commanded Olórin FW-SL-04{(illegible words follow that seems to contain word "}/to go as the /third{")}/emissary/. But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
FW-SL-05{The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him,} FW-SL-06<moved from below Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë> and {that }Alatar took Pallando FW-SL-07<moved from below also chosen by{to} Oromë (but {this replaces Pallando to}/favoured by/ Mandos and {Nienna}[Niënna])> as a friend.[Footnote to the text: Curumo would seem to be Saruman's name in Quenya, recorded nowhere else; Curunír was the Sindarin form. Saruman, his name among Northern Men, contains the Anglo-Saxon word searu, saru "skill, cunning, cunning device." Aiwendil must mean "lover of birds;" cf. Linaewen "lake of birds" in Nevrast FW-SL-08{(see the Appendix to The Silmarillion, entry lin (I).) For the meaning of} Radagast FW-SL-09{see p.407 and note 4}<Note 4 is said to be a name deriving from the Men of the Vales of Anduin, {"}not now clearly interpretable{."}>. Pallando, despite the spelling, perhaps contains palan "afar", as in palantir and in Pallaran "Far Wanderer," the name of Aldarion's ship.] FW-SL-10{
On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that "Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë." There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).}
FW-SL-11<The Five Wizards Was in fact Glorfindel one of them? FW-SL-12{' He observed that he was 'evidently never supposed to be when The Lord of the Rings was written', adding that there}There is no possibility that some of them were Eldar 'of the highest order of power', rather than Maiar.> FW-SL-13<The Istari We must assume that they FW-SL-14{[the Istari] }were all Maiar, … Of the other two nothing is said FW-SL-15{ in published work save the reference to the Five Wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman [The Two Towers III 10]}. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, … and were chosen by the Valar with this in mind.>
FW-SL-16<The Five Wizards No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together. FW-SL-17{, though this has not yet been said. (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

The reference of the last sentence is to Saruman's violent retort to Gandalf at the door of Orthanc, in which he spoke of 'the rods of the Five Wizards' (The Two Towers p. 188). Another note is even rougher and more difficult:
}The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. FW-SL-18{(26)} Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was FW-SL-19{(though not yet said) }pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. FW-SL-20{(27)} But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. FW-SL-21{(28)} Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion FW-SL-22{... }and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause {[? }dissension and disarray{]} among the dark East.{ ...} They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East {... }who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have {... }outnumbered the West.
Some comments on my editing:

BY-HL-11: I don’t think there is much to say about the title, but we might discuss here if we want to include this at all. And I might start with my reasoning for including both these and the Glorfindel chapter: In this very late writing JRR Tolkien stated that the Wizards should not come all at roughly the same time, even so he had written otherwise in older texts. As far as I remember there is nothing in the works published by JRR Tolkien himself that would contradict this. So following the rules of the project, the last statement has to be taken, and that is, that the Blue Wizards came in the second age, at the some occasion to which Glorfindel came back to Middle-earth (even so the fact might have been unknown in Middel-earth for one and half Age of the Sun).
If that is so than the council of the Valar choosing the Istari must have occurred at this time (about Second Age 1600). I think, that Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast did postponed their journey to Middle-earth until about Third Age 1000 must have been a side effect of the intervention of the Númenoreans. But of course this must not be mentioned in our text. That the three came later is fact recorded, but the reason is not explained.

FW-SL-01 I inserted here a part from UT about the council of the Valar. In my opinion it fit here well because of the prayer for help mentione in the Glorfindel chapter just before.

FW-SL-02, FW-SL-03, FW-SL-04, FW-SL-05, FW-SL-12: Removing the open comments of Christopher Tolkien explaining the reconstruction of the text.

FW-SL-06, FW-SL-07: This movements of passage is needed for a (re-) construction of a closed readable text.

FW-SL-08, FW-SL-18, FW-SL-19, FW-SL-20, FW-SL-21: A comment by Christopher Tolkien removed.

FW-SL-09: The linguistical information about Radagast and Pallando are best placed here, I think.

FW-SL-10: This is the text moved to a slightly earlier place.

FW-SL-11: This question from HoMe 12 is their reported as the beginning of the essay about the Istarí and I re-established it as such. For me it fits well with the placement of the chapter and the choosing scene just given.

FW-SL-13: Here I added the main essay about the Istari from UT.

FW-SL-14: For me the reference of ‘they’ is still clear enough, so that we do not need change to ‘the Istari’.

FW-SL-15, FW-SL-19: This is JRR Tolkien talking about his story writing and has to be removed.

FW-SL-16: Here we go back to HoME 12 to tell story of the earlier arrival of the Blue Wizards.

FW-SL-17: The last part this Note should be used later, when Gandalf actually arrives. And the second part that is remoeved here is again an open comment of Christopher Tolkien explaining the reconstruction of the text.

FW-SL-22: At the end this note became very rough, so we have to edit out some editorial markers by Christopher Tolkien to create a closed text.

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Old 05-14-2018, 03:35 PM   #2
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BL-HL-11: I am loathe to put this here, as I have said before. In Appendix B to LotR we have this statement:
Quote:
When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth.
This seems to me to be statement we would be contradicting by adopting his later change. If they appeared in Middle-earth only 1000 years into the Third Age, then to say that two had come almost 4000 years prior would certainly contradict this statement. In addition, as you have said, in every other source, Saruman is said to have been the first to arrive. Therefore, I think that the published Appendix B sentence prevents us from taking up Tolkien's proposed change.

As for the rest, much of the comments would depend on where we place the narrative in time, and so I will refrain from commenting until we solve the first question.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:10 PM   #3
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BL-HL-11: As ArcusCalion has already mentioned his doubts about this placement, this come not unexpected. I thnk we have to take the words in LotR; Appendix B by their face value, not by their implication: ‘appear’ does not mean ‘arrive’. Especially in the context of these annals it means that they became known to the people in Middle-earth. About the two Blue Wizards it is explicitly said that they their existence was unknown until the debate between Gandalf and Saruman in which Saruman mentioned the Rod of the Five Wizards. As the Annalse were clearly compiled much later, the mentioning of Istari here means not much that from that date on any think about them could be extracted from the stories preserved when the Annals were compiled to be put in these Annals. As the two Blue Wizards never work in the West (it seems that they only visited it once to fetch up Saruman for his journey into the east) it is natural that their appearance in Middle-earth (in the middle of the Second Age) was not recorded in these Annals concerned only with the history of the Westlands.
As JRR Tolkien felt free to change the date of the arrival of the two Blue Wizards, it seems clear that he as well saw no contradiction in this statement from LotR; Appendix B that was already in print.
That some other sources say that Saruman came first is true. But the sources seem to be all more or less contemporary, so which should have priority is not that clear.

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Old 05-23-2018, 03:33 PM   #4
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Very well, after much long thought and hesitation, I agree that the text published is indeed ambiguous enough to follow Tolkien's later notes. However, I have a few changes I would like to make all the same which I will lay out here.

My main point of remaining dissent is this: the narrative as put together by Fin (which is almost identical to the one I used in my own Third Age placement) does not emphasize that these Istari were mostly not arriving at this time. The only explanation of that is given in the last paragraph, where the blue wizards are said to have come earlier during the Second Age than the other two. Are we claiming then that all the Istari arrived far earlier than the time of their first 'appearance' (albeit the Blue Wizards said to be earlier than the others)? If so this is a radical revision indeed, and not what Tolkien intended, as he only wished to change the timeframe of the Blue Wizards. However, I fear that placing this chapter here lends the implication that all five came far earlier to the text.

BY-HL-11: Personally, I think this headline is unsatisfactory. As the narrative stands in this version, only two of the wizards landed at this time, with the other three arriving later on. In that case, it can hardly be called the 'landing of the five wizards' if only two of them arrive. Perhaps we can shorten it to 'Of the Five Wizards' since 'and their functions and operations' seems almost too much.

FW-SL-16: This addition contains a strange contradiction. As Fin has so far championed, the two blue wizards must come first during the second age, but here in this text it is said that Saruman came first. If indeed we are to go with the later revision of the 2nd age Blue Wizards then I think we must remove this. In addition, we have the remark 'no names were recorded for the blue wizards' which is clearly untrue, as in the next paragraph we give two names! We must thus change this addition:
Quote:
FW-SL-16<The Five Wizards {No names are recorded for the two wizards. They}The two wizards were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first of these three and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together.
The rest may proceed as Fin compiled it.
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:42 AM   #5
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Hello to all. Again repeat I have not my material with me. But I wanted to share my opinion in this matter.
In this project as well as mine, some later ideas from the professor were rejected (the matter of G and C is the most important). And in my humble opinion if is necessary include the matter of the Istari into the narrative line the best place is in the TA. And left the SA only to Glorfindel.
I assume you have reviewed the Letters if they have some more information about this matter (i think say something but I cannot remember where) , it would be worthy to do it.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:26 AM   #6
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I wonder if it is best to put the narrative in the Third Age, but leave the mention that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age. That way the majority of the wizards are left in the place they were meant to be, and we learn retroactively of the presence of the Blue Wizards in the Second Age.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:37 AM   #7
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I forgot to include this in my post, but I propose adding in the short poem about the Istari right before the council (we could discuss if it is better to include it after the council):

FW-SL-00.5:
Quote:
FW-SL-00.5 <The Ist Will thou learn the lore / that was long secret
of the Five that came / from a far country?
FW-00.7 {One only}[Not all] returned. / Others never again
under Men's dominion / Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath / and the Doom cometh.
How hast thou heard it: / the hidden counsel
of the Lord of the West / in the land of Aman?
The long roads are lost / that led thither,
and to mortal Men / Manwë speaks not.
From the West–that–was / a wind bore it
to the sleeper's ear, / in the silences
under night-shadow, / when news is brought
from lands forgotten / and lost ages
over seas of years / to the searching thought.
Not all are forgotten / by the Elder King.
Sauron he saw / as a slow menace ....>
I changed the one line from "One only" to "Not all" since Tolkien's late note changed the fate of the Blue Wizards to be successful in their mission, and also due to Christopher's comments about the illogical nature of the statements about the failure of Radagast. Regardless of Radagast, the Blue Wizards were sucessful, so it cannot be said that only one returned.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-26-2018 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:11 PM   #8
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Posted by ArcusCalion:
Quote:
Are we claiming then that all the Istari arrived far earlier than the time of their first 'appearance' (albeit the Blue Wizards said to be earlier than the others)?
To be first clear about this: I don't think that Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf came in the Second Age! It is clear that all the emessaries from the west (the Istari and Glrofindel) came by the propose of the Valar not as a group. My theory behind this, is that the events in Middle-earth were faster that the Valar expected and that when the Blue wizards and Glorfindel had been transported to, the intervention of the Númenoreans stopped the Valar from letting Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf go. Their journey was postponed until it made sense again in about 1000 Third Age.
I see the issue you have with the text as compiled by me, but I don't see a good solution that is not nearing fan-ficion as my theroy given above.

Posted by ArcusCalion:
Quote:
I wonder if it is best to put the narrative in the Third Age, but leave the mention that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age. That way the majority of the wizards are left in the place they were meant to be, and we learn retroactively of the presence of the Blue Wizards in the Second Age.
This is an option, but if we have as you observed dificulties to make clear that 3 of the 5 came much later, than we will in that way have dificulties to explaine that the choosing of the five was already in the Second Age. And we have in the chapter "Glrofindel" the mentioning of the arrival at the same time as the 2 wizards, which if we do not mention the wizards any more in the Second Age stuff would be a bit strange or not?

I am not so sure which dificulties are eassier to solve, and still tend to include the chapter here.

Gondowe, I couldn't find any thing in the Letters that would add inside to our discussion.

BY-HL-11I can see the reasoning behind that change. I agree that 'Of the Five Wizards' should be enough.

FW-SL-16: Agreed, the changes might help to lessen the issue with the early choosing and later arivial.

FW-SL-00.5: I like that additon.

FW-SL-00.7: I don't think this change is necessary. Radagast is not reported to return. It is said explicitly that he became enamoured to the fauna of Middle-earth and that this prevented him of fullfilling his mission properly. And the two Blue Wizards, well they did a good job for a long time as it seems but that does not mean that they did not faile in the end. See Saruman for excample, he also did for a long time the best he could to promote the mission of the Istari.

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Old 05-26-2018, 06:32 PM   #9
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FW-SL-16: I think you are right and these changes might help to alleviate the erroneous implications of the chapter placing. I shall have to revise my Third Age draft for these things, but I suppose that will not be a problem. Perhaps this chapter may as well go here.

FW-SL-00.7: Christoper Tolkien points out that if Yavanna sent Radagast explicitly because he was a lover of birds and beasts, then how could he fail his mission by becoming enamored of them? I suppose you could argue that his secondary goals supplanted his primary goals and that was what made him fail, but due to the fact that Christopher Tolkien himself expressed doubts about the logic here, as well as Tolkien's apparent change of heart about the Blue WIzards, throws this into doubt for me. Liek you said however, the Blue Wizards may have turned to evil eventually, but it must have been very late, if even at the end of the Third Age the armies of Sauron were smaller due to their work. Personally, I think from a timeline perspective their turning evil is extremely unlikely.
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Old 05-27-2018, 08:17 AM   #10
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Turning top evil does not mean going over to Sauron! If they did build their own realm of power in competition to Sauron as did Saruman, or probably even more open, since Saruman played a double game with bith sides, that would have still be helpfull in distracting forces that Sauron could have used against the west, but would have been a failure in the Istari quest.

And for Radagast that is exactly how I see his failure: Even so Yavanna wished to have one emessairy that had a special care for here beasts and birds, the main mission was to raise opposition to Sauron, and I don't see Radagast doing that in his actions around Rosgobel.

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Old 05-27-2018, 12:23 PM   #11
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Ah you are correct, I had not thought of that. I suppose since there is no explicit contradiction here then we must leave it as is, as sad as that is.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:28 PM   #12
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Actually, I had a new thought reading the beginning of this work. The narrative starts off somewhat abruptly, but I have an idea. If we take the last line of the poem: 'Sauron he saw as a slow menace.' And place it as prose right before the 'Therefore' it would be a better opening. So, like so:
Quote:
FW-SL-00.8 <The Istari Sauron {he}Manwë saw {_} as a slow menace. FW-SL-01<The Istari {Most of the remaining writings about the Istari (as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illegible. Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of}Therefore /he summoned/ a council of the Valar, {summoned it seems by Manwë,} and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel, ...
I think this flows more smoothly, and is a more dynamic opening.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:55 PM   #13
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I think we reach a similar effect with simply add a full stop after 'menace' and remove the '....'.

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