The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > The New Silmarillion > Translations from the Elvish - Public Forum
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-29-2018, 05:38 PM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Of the Rings of Power

This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Rings of Power in the part The Black Years.

There is no Basic Text in this chapter and I will give source information for each part that is used. They are mostly from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age from Sil77.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

RP-SL-zz for Of the Rings of Power, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.
Quote:
BY-HL-12<Of the Rings of Power
> RP-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the Mírdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. >RP-SL-02<Of the Rings of Power Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, ... and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. ... and he came against them RP-SL-03{ with open war}, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel.>
RP-SL-04<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, ... They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, {"}but they failed to find the strength.{"} Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be.> RP-SL-05<Of the Rings of Power Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. ... yet they also were subject to the One.> RP-SL-06<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn It was at that time that {she}Galadriel received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lórinand wasRP-SL-07<editorial addition later> strengthened and made beautiful; but its power upon her was great also and unforseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and for return into the West, so that her joy in Middle-earth was diminished. RP-SL-08{9} Celebrimbor followed her counsel that the Ring of Air and the Ring of Fire should be sent out of Eregion; and he entrusted them to Gil-galad in Lindon. RP-SL-09{ (It is said here that at this time Gil galad gave Narya, the Red Ring, to Círdan Lord of the Havens, but later in the narrative there is a marginal note that he kept it himself until he set out for the War of the Last Alliance.)} RP-SL-10 <LotR, Appendix A III It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk, that{ to be} the first of the Seven that was forged{; and they say that it} was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven. But the possessors of the Ring did not display it or speak of it, and they seldom surrendered it until near death, so that others did not know for certain where it was bestowed.>
When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. RP-SL-11<Of the Rings of Power But the Elves fled from him. RP-SL-12{; and three of their rings they saved, ... yet they also were subject to the One.
}From that time war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves RP-SL-13{; and Eregion was laid waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut. In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured}.> RP-SL-14<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix D: The Port of Lond Dear The denuding of RP-SL-15{the lands}Minhiriath and Enedwaith was increased during the war in Eriador; ... burning many of the great wood-stores of the Númenóreans.
>RP-SL-16<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; … with a different power and purpose. RP-SL-17{ [It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.]} Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; … and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.
In black anger he turned back to battle; ... and it was at that time RP-SL-18{[}in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years{]} that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell). ... all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.
But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador: ... prevent him coming down upon his rear.
Now for long years the Númenóreans ... The Númenórean admiral Ciryatur sent part of his ships to make a landing further to the south.
Sauron was driven away south-east after great slaughter at Sarn Ford ... for Ciryatur had put a strong force ashore at the mouth of the Gwathló (Greyflood), {"}where there was a small Númenórean harbour.{"} RP-SL-19{[}This was Vinyalondë of Tar-Aldarion, afterwards called Lond Daer{; see Appendix D. p. 274.]} In the Battle of the Gwathló Sauron was routed utterly ... but lay largely in ruins.> RP-SL-20<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix D: The Prot of Lobd Daer When Sauron was at last defeated and driven east out of Eriador most of the old forests had been destroyed. The Gwathló flowed through a land that was far and wide on either bank a desert, treeless but untilled.>
RP-SL-21<Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men{Very great changes came to pass as the Second Age proceeded. ... that had formed an alliance also with the Longbeards of Moria.} This marked also the end of the Alliance of the Longbeards with Men of the North. ... and lived mostly in caves or in the borders of the Forest.>
RP-SL-22<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn At this time the first RP-SL-23<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, note 10 White >Council was held, RP-SL-24{10} and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador; but the Red Ring he kept.RP-SL-25{, until he gave it to Círdan when he set out from Lindon in the days of the Last Alliance.11} For many years the Westlands had peace, and time in which to heal their wounds; but the Númenóreans had tasted power in Middle-earth, and from that time forward they began to make permanent settlements on the western coasts RP-SL-26{ [dated "c. 1800" in the Tale of Years]}, becoming too powerful for Sauron to attempt to move west out of Mordor for a long time.
RP-SL-27{In its concluding passage the narrative returns to Galadriel, telling that the}At this time the sea-longing grew so strong in {her}Galadriel that (though she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered) she determined to leave Lórinand and to dwell near the sea. She committed Lórinand to RP-SL-28{Amroth}[Amdír], and passing again through Moria with Celebrían she came to Imladris, seeking Celeborn. There (it seems) she found him, and there they dwelt together for a long time; and it was then that Elrond first saw Celebrían, and loved her, though he said nothing of it. It was while Galadriel was in Imladris that the Council referred to above was held.> RP-SL-29<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Amroth and Nimrodel
The people of Lórien were even then {[i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth]} much as they were at the end of the Third Age: Silvan Elves in origin, but ruled by princes of Sindarin descent (as was the realm of Thranduil in the northern parts of Mirkwood RP-SL-30{; though whether Thranduil and Amroth were akin is not now known.}) RP-SL-31{15} They had however been much mingled with Noldor (of Sindarin speech), who passed through Moria after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age. At that time Elrond went RP-SL-32{westward [sic; probably meaning simply that he did not cross Misty Mountains]}[northward] and established the refuge of Imladris; Celeborn went at first to Lórien and fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin.> RP-SL-33<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Amroth and Nimrodel {The implication of the extract just given is that after Eregion’s fall Celeborn led this migration to Lórien, while Galadriel joined Gil-galad in Lindon; but elsewhere, in writing contemporary with this, it is said explicitly that they both}Both Galadriel and Celeborn at that time {‘}passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien{‘}.> RP-SL-34<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Amroth and Nimrodel When however Sauron withdrew to Mordor, and was (as reported) wholly concerned with conquests in the East, Celeborn rejoin¬ed Galadriel in Lindon.{
}Lórien had then long years of peace and obscurity under the rule of its own king Amdír.
> RP-SL-35<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Note 2 {In a note in unpublished material the}The Elves of Harlindon, or Lindon south of the Lune, are said to have been largely of Sindarin origin, and the region to have been a fief under the rule of Celeborn.>
RP-SL-36<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned {twice}a second time before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age.> RP-SL-37<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn But at some later time RP-SL-38{ [there is no indication of the date]} Galadriel and Celeborn together with Celebrían departed {from}and over Imladris{ and} went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth; there Amroth RP-SL-39{ their}, son of Amdír, at times visited them, and their company was swelled by Nandorin Elves from Lórinand.> RP-SL-40<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Amroth and Nimrodel {Thus in a discussion of linguistic and political interrelations in Middle-earth (dating from 1969 or later) there is a passing reference to the fact that in the days of the earlier settlements of Númenor}/In that time/ the shores of the Bay of Belfalas were still mainly desolate {"}except for a haven and small settlement of Elves at the south of the confluence of Morthond and Ringló{"} (i.e. just north of Dol Amroth). RP-SL-41{

}This, according to the traditions of Dol Amroth, had been .established by seafaring Sindar from the west havens of Beleriand who fled in three small ships when the power of Morgoth overwhelmed the Eldar and the Atani; but it was later increased by adventurers of the Silvan Elves seeking for the sea who came down Anduin. RP-SL-42{

}The Silvan Elves RP-SL-43{(it is remarked here) "}were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes. RP-SL-44{" To relate this story of the "three small ships" to the traditions recorded in The Silmarillion we would probably have to assume that they escaped from Brithombar or Eglarest (the Havens of the Falas on the west coast of Beleriand) when they were destroyed in the years after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (The Silmarillion p.196), but that whereas Círdan and Gil-galad made a refuge on the Isle of Balar these three ships' companies sailed far further south down the coasts, to Belfalas.}
{But a}A quite different account, making the establishment of the Elvish haven later, … There was already a primitive harbour there of fisherfolk, but these in fear of the Eldar fled into the mountains.{"}[Footnote to the text: The place of the Elvish haven in Belfalas is marked with the name Edhellond ("Elf-haven{,}" RP-SL-45{ see the Appendix to The Silmarillion under edhel and lond}) on the maps.{decorated map of Middle-earth by Pauline Baynes; but I have found no other occurrence of this name. See Appendix D, p. 274. Cf. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (1962), p. 8: "In the Langstrand and Dol Amroth there were many traditions of the ancient Elvish dwellings, and of the haven at the mouth of the Morthond from which 'westward ships' had sailed as far back as the fall of Eregion in the Second Age."}]
>
RP-SL-46<Of the Rings of Power But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he RP-SL-47{gave}[dedicated] to the Dwarves; ... and some Sauron recovered.
Men proved easier to ensnare. … and they cried with the voices of death.>
Some comments on my editing:

BY-HL-12: The title is taken of course from the part of Sil77. It is used here only in part to dedicate the chapter that tells about the making of these Rings and the War about the possession of these Rings that followed immediately.

RP-SL-01 & RP-SL-02: I start with the statement when Sauron left Eregion. As in the next paragraph Sauron is reported to smith the One Ring, this seems the logical arrangement.

RP-SL-03: I skiped the open war, since the speed of the narrative as I constructed it is much slower than that of Sil77, so that this seemed not to fit.

RP-SL-04, RP-SL-05 & RP-SL-08: This construction of text should transport the counsel of Galadriel and Celbrimbor and the difference in power of the Elven-Rings.

RP-SL-07: As it is clear from all we know about the Rings, that Galadriel could not at that time (and for a long time in future) us the Ring she received, I added the later here to avoid a false impression that she used it immediately.

RP-SL-08, RP-SL-24, RP-SL-31: A Footonte with comments of Christopher removed.

RP-SL-09, RP-SL-17, RP-SL-26, RP-SL-27, RP-SL-30, RP-SL-38, RP-SL-45: Comment of Chirstopher Tolkien about the construction of the text removed.

RP-SL-10: Here I worked into the narrative the story of Durin reviving the first of the Seven directly by the Elves and not via Sauron.

RP-SL-11, RP-SL-12 & RP-SL-13: I did not use over much of this passage, but wanted to document what I left out or better replaced by the more full telling from UT.

RP-SL-14: This is the first step in the war: Sauron is causing disarrangement about the friends of his foes.

RP-SL-15: The reference had become unclear by my arrangement of the text.

RP-SL-16: UT has the fullest account of the War in Eriador.

RP-SL-18: I am not sure, if we should include this date, so I am open for a different editing.

RP-SL-20: I added this to show some of the results of that war.

RP-SL-21: Now the War was not restricted to Eriador and here we report what we know about the other battle-places.

RP-SL-22: Here we change back to Eriador and report in special the history of Galadriel and Celeborn.

RP-SL-23: The reference to this council as the first has to carry a long with reader if he should make the connection, therefore I added the ‘White’ to help that process.

RP-SL-25: I think we should report the giving of Narya to Círdan when it realy happens.

RP-SL-28: As we know that Amroth came to rule in Lórinand onlky after the death of his father in the Battle on Dagorlad, we have to change this. We also may discuss here if the name is Amdír or Malgalad.

RP-SL-29: Maybe this is a bit redundant, but I felt that some ‘intro’ was usefull for what follows.

RP-SL-32: I think we have to simply this.

RP-SL-33 & RP-SL-34: Here we come to the difficult part of the movement of the pair. As I see it Galadriel left Lórinand in the care of Amdír in search for Celeborn and a home nearer to the Sea. She found Celebron in Imladris but after the council she moved with him back to Lórinand to farther prepare it for the defence. But in the end her longing for the West made her after ‘many years’ go to Lindonm where later Celeborn rejoined her.

RP-SL-35: I think the note referred to is published in the meant time. I will look for it, but if anybody has an idea I would be thankful for a hint.

RP-SL-36 & RP-SL-37: As this is the only fiting place I see, I added here the full story of the movement of the pair.

RP-SL-39: Amroth is now the son of Amdír not of Galadriel, but still since she had been in Lórinand more than once and also for some considerable time, it is quite likely that young Amroth die visit Galadriel at Edhellond. We might remember here that there was a custom among the Edain leaders of Beleriand to send their sons to other relams for education. It could well be that they did so following a custom among the Eldar (e.g. beside Amroth here Gil-galad in the First Age).

RP-SL-40, RP-SL-41, RP-SL-42, RP-SL-43 & RP-SL-44: I took up both stories about the first founding of the heaven as alternatives. This can be discussed of course.

RP-SL-46: Here at the end of the chapter we come back to Sauron and the Rings of Power.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2018, 11:06 PM   #2
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 389
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
Excellent chapter Fin, and I think we will have far less discussion on it than the past few. I still have a few points to make, which I will put below. Anything I do not mention is something I agree to.

RP-SL-12: I see why you deleted the last part of the sentence:
Quote:
; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.
I'm guessing it was to keep some suspense until after the attack when we learn that the Elves have hidden the rings, but we might also consider keeping the last part of this first removed sentence. I do not feel strongly about it either way, but I thought I would mention it.

RP-SL-18: This is an editorial addition by CT, and we do not need it. I say we remove it.

RP-SL-21: This is all fine, but you added an 'also' which does not need to be added.

RP-SL-28: I think we should go with Amdir. Malgalad and Amdir are said by CT to be of the same time period and one cannot supersede the other based on seniority. However, Amdir is the name tied to Amroth, and I think keeping this association is reason enough to use this name instead of Malgalad. We could consider giving him the name of Malgalad as an epithet, but that I think if we have to pick one or the other, we should use Amdir.

RP-SL-29: In this addition, the reference to the realm of Thranduil should be changed to the realm of Oropher for the same reason as RP-SL-28. Thranduil is said to lead back his people from the Last Alliance, where Oropher perished, so at this time, Oropher is still ruling over the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood. Call this change RP-SL-29.5.

RP-SL-35: To answer your question about where this comes from, it is from one of the footnotes to Dwarves and Men, so it is a late source. In my draft for The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves I used it in place of your addition from Appendix B of LotR. I would argue that it makes more sense there, but there is no real harm in including it here instead, as we know he dwelt there longer at this time.

RP-SL-38: This is not related to this deletion (which I agree with) but to the editing you did afterwards which is not marked. We can call this RP-SL-38.5 for convenience. You changed it because they are setting out from Lindon, not Imladris, but your editing is awkward. I think it is smoother to simply remove "from Imladris." This is smoother and accomplishes the same goal.

RP-SL-40 to 45: This is the part with the most difficulty in the chapter, as I'm sure you could predict. There are several points which I must raise:

1) No matter what we do with these additions, we should probably use the actual source material CT is referring to instead of his summary
2) Should we give both alternate versions or only give one?

For the first point: the first story given (about the Sindar from the havens) is given in Dwarves and Men during the discussion of the Middle Men. You already took a large piece of this discussion for the Aldarion and Erendis chapter (which was best), and I think this is also the better place for this info, and so we should include it here instead of in the Middle Men discussion. But we should use the actual story instead of CT's summary. However, half of the actual story is in a footnote, and it may be desirable to raise it up into the main text. Here is the text as it stands in Dwarves and Men:
Quote:
The shores of the Bay of Belfalas were still mainly desolate, except for a haven and small settlement of Elves at the mouth of the confluence of Morthond and Ringló. [Footnote: This according to the traditions of Dol Amroth had been established by seafaring Sindar from the west havens of Beleriand who fled in three small ships when the power of Morgoth overwhelmed the Eldar and the Atani; but it was later increased by adventurers of the Silvan Elves seeking for the Sea who came down the Anduin. The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification, though unknown to the Atani until later days: for they were like the Sindar Teleri, but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the Vales of Anduin. (Of these Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were survivors in the Third Age.) But they were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes.]
This includes some pertinent info for the Middle Men discussion, which we could lift out and place there, but by and large the question is mainly: do we raise the footnote text into the main text? I say we should, since it is obviously more centrally important here than it was in that essay.

Moving on to the second version, this is based on the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor given in Vinyar Tengwar 42. As this is a rare text, I will give it in full here (I apologize for the length):
Quote:
Belfalas: This is a special case. Bel- is certainly an element derived from a pre-Númenórean name; but its source was quite known, and was in fact Sindarin. The regions of Gondor had a complex history in the remote past, so far as their population was concerned, and the Númenóreans evidently found many layers of mixed peoples, and numerous islands of isolated folk either clinging to old dwellings, or in mountain-refuges from invaders. [Footnote: Though none of the regions of the Two Kingdoms were before (or after!) the Númenórean settlements densely populated as we should reckon it.] But there was one small (but important) element in Gondor of quite exceptional kind: an Eldarin settlement. Little is known of its history until shortly before it disappeared; for the Eldarin Elves, whether Exiled Noldor or long-rooted Sindar, remained in Beleriand until its desolation in the Great War against Morgoth; and then if they did not take sail over Sea wandered westward [sic; read “eastward”] in Eriador. There, especially near the Hithaeglir (on either side), they found scattered settlements of the Nandor, Telerin Elves who had in the First Age never completed the journey to the shores of the Sea; but both sides recognized their kinship as Eldar. There appears, however, in the beginning of the Second Age, to have been a group of Sindar who went south. They were a remnant, it seems, of the people of Doriath, who harbored still their grudge against the Noldor and left the Grey Havens because these and all the ships there were commanded by Círdan (a Noldo). Having learned the craft of shipbuilding [Footnote: All Elves were naturally skilled in making boats, but the craft that were to make a long voyage over Sea, perilous even to Elven-craft until Middle-earth was far behind, required more skill and knowledge.] they went in the corse of years seeking a place for havens of their own. At last they settled at the mouth of the Morthond. There was already a primitive harbor there of fisher-folk; but these in fear of the Eldar fled into the mountains. The land between Morthond and Serni (the shoreward parts of Dor-en-Ernil)
This was followed by a brief note from CT:
Quote:
It was perhaps a purely experimental extension of the history, at once abandoned; but the assertion that Círdan was a Noldo is very strange. This runs clean counter to the entire tradition of him – yet it is essential to the idea sketched in this passage. Possibly it was his realization of this that led my father to abandon it mid-sentence.
After this, he notes that this story was replaced with an entirely new passage that does not address the word Belfalas at all.

Having now given both texts as they stand in their origins, I will discuss which one is more fitting, or if both should be given. Both texts are dated c. 1969, so one cannot be shown to be later than the other. However, the second story was rejected by Tolkien, and contains as an essential element a great contradiction to a much later story (Cirdan is one of the latest of his writings.) Therefore, I would posit that the second story is ruled out by nature of its being rejected by Tolkien, and indeed abandoned mid-sentence and replaced. However, as Fin has said, I think we should combine when possible. Thus, I would recommend combining where possible. However, the entirety of the beginning is either not fitting to use here, or a summary of things already said in other chapters, and the main story of the second version is unusable. Therefore, the only detail we can take is this:
Quote:
There was already a primitive harbor there of fisher-folk; but these in fear of the Eldar fled into the mountains.
I would add it into the first story here:
Quote:
... who came down the Anduin. <Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor There was already a primitive harbor there of fisher-folk; but these in fear of the Eldar fled into the mountains.> The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves ...
This, I hope, effectively solves the debate, and takes the best from both worlds. I would recommend using the beginning passage later on in the Last Alliance chapter, when the landing of Isildur and Anarion is related.

RP-SL-47: I do not see the reason for this change. If there is a good reason, then 'dedicated' is certainly the wrong word to use here, but as it is, I am unsure what your reasoning and intention behind this are.

I apologize for the length of the post, but I think it was a good chapter and the discussion will, for the most part, be pretty painless.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-29-2018 at 11:20 PM.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2018, 01:14 PM   #3
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
RP-SL-12: Sorry maybe it is to hot today over here in Europe, but hwhat is your suggestion here to keep the complete sentence or to remove it completely?

RP-SL-18: Okay.

RP-SL-21: If you think so we can go without, but I am not that sure.

RP-SL-28: The association with Amroth was as well my reason to prefer Amdír.

RP-SL-29: Agree and good catch, I missed that one.

RP-SL-35: Thanks for the hint, I will then take the original note to creat our text:
Quote:
... Lórien had then long years of peace and obscurity under the rule of its own king Amdír.
> RP-SL-35b<HoME 12 Of Dwarves and Men; Note 65 Gil-galad's people were mainly Noldorin; though in the Second Age the Elves of Harlindon were mainly Sindarin, and the region was a fief under the rule of Celeborn.>
RP-SL-36<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned
RP-SL-40 to RP-SL-45: As with the issue above I agree to use rather the original text instead of the summary of Christopher Tolkien and I also agree to lift it from Footnote into the text. I as well agree to your reasoning which story should be chosen and what should be combined from the second story. But I would as well take the Note from UT about the name on the maps. Thus we would get the following:
Quote:
… and their company was swelled by Nandorin Elves from Lórinand.> RP-SL-40b<HoME 12, Dwarves and Men The shores of the Bay of Belfalas were still mainly desolate, except for a haven and small settlement of Elves at the mouth of the confluence of Morthond and Ringló. RP-SL-41b <HoME 12, Dwarves and Men, Note 67 This according to the traditions of Dol Amroth had been established by seafaring Sindar from the west havens of Beleriand who fled in three small ships when the power of Morgoth overwhelmed the Eldar and the Atani; but it was later increased by adventurers of the Silvan Elves seeking for the Sea who came down the Anduin. RP-SL-43b <Vinyar Tengwar 42 There was already a primitive harbour there of fisherfolk, but these in fear of the Eldar fled into the mountains.> RP-SL-44b <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Amroth and Nimrodel, Note 18 [Footnote to the text: The place of the Elvish haven in Belfalas is marked with the name Edhellond ("Elf-haven{,}" RP-SL-45{ see the Appendix to The Silmarillion under edhel and lond}) on the maps.{decorated map of Middle-earth by Pauline Baynes; but I have found no other occurrence of this name. See Appendix D, p. 274. Cf. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (1962), p. 8: "In the Langstrand and Dol Amroth there were many traditions of the ancient Elvish dwellings, and of the haven at the mouth of the Morthond from which 'westward ships' had sailed as far back as the fall of Eregion in the Second Age."}]> The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification, though unknown to the Atani until later days: for they were like the Sindar Teleri, but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the Vales of Anduin. (Of these Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were survivors in the Third Age.) But they were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes.
>
RP-SL-46<Of the Rings of Power But Sauron gathered into his hands …
RP-SL-47: My reason was that Sauron is not actually said to take the Seven after he learned where Celebrimbor had hid them. On the contrary it is said that Celebrimbor gave the first of the Seven to Durin himself. So I had some doubt if not more than one of the Seven was given directly to the Dwarves by the Elves.
A secondary thought was that the Elves for sure never made the Rings for anyone else than themselves (why should they?) and that the dedication to the other free people was done by Sauron. But maybe I overdid it here, because you are right the dedication was done while Sauron made the One and created the Ring-poem that the Elves “heard” when he first set the One on his finger (it can as well be that the dedication was part of Saurons original plan that he concealed from the Elves). So I agree that we should simply let the text stand as it was. The Reader will remember that Celebrimbor had proberbly himself given the first of the Seven to Durin.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2018, 02:04 PM   #4
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 389
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
RP-SL-12: I am suggesting keeping the rest of the sentence. So it would look like this:
Quote:
RP-SL-11 <Of the Rings of Power But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them. RP-SL-12 {Now these were the Three that had last been made ...
RP-SL-21: The only reason we would need an also in the phrase 'also marked the end' then we must have referred to something else being ended, but the last paragraph we discuss the denuding of the lands around the Gwathlo, not the ending of anything. Therefore we do not need to include an 'also.' It doesn't hurt anything, but it is not required.

RP-SL-35: Perfect!

RP-SL-40 to 45: This is perfect, but I would only say that to keep the phrase "The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification" we must have already discussed the Númenórean classifications of peoples. Therefore we must either insert this classification into an earlier chapter, or change this sentence. Personally, I think we should remove that bit, since on the Middle Men discussion, it is said that the terms arose at the time of Ar-Adûnakhôr, and relates to the nature of the divide of the Faithful and the King's Men, which we have not yet reached in the narrative. Therefore I would say we should slightly edit it thus:
Quote:
The Silvan Elves were RP-SL-45.5 {Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification, though} unknown to the Atani until later days: for they were like ....
RP-SL-47: Yeah I think the reader can puzzle it out for themselves, and changing this is unnecessary.

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-30-2018 at 02:17 PM.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2018, 02:48 PM   #5
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Rp-SL-12: On the one hand this is probabaly wrong, since the Dwarves beliefed that the Elves rescued 4 Rings. On the other it is redundant info since we tell the tale of the rescue later.

Rp-SL-21: Okay.

Rp-SL-45.5: Agreed. But I think you took out not enough:
Quote:
... The Silvan Elves were RP-SL-45.5{Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification, though unknown to the Atani until later days: for they were} like the Sindar Teleri, ...
Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2018, 03:13 PM   #6
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 389
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
Agreed to all. Looks like another successful chapter!
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2018, 07:31 PM   #7
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 389
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
RP-SL-29.5: I just realized, we should change 'Mirkwood' here to 'the Greenwood' since when Oropher ruled there it was called by that name. We can discuss if the statement about the realm of Thranduil in the Third Age in Mirkwood at the end of the paragraph needs changing, but I think it is ok to leave it.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2018, 06:03 PM   #8
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
RP-SL-29.5: I don't agree to this. At least it is clear that we have a compilation of later days. So the naming made be out of time. Like the use of Dol Amroth long before the death of Amroth.

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2018, 06:32 PM   #9
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 389
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
The usage of Dol Amroth is always in the context of the future: 'In the lore of Dol Amroth.' This case of Mirkwood is used erroneously (before we even explain the name Mirkwood) as the current residence of the elvenking.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 06:07 AM   #10
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
RP-SL-29.5: Okay. I see you are right. BUt I think the article should not be used. It is not 'the Mirkwood' so it should not be 'the Greenwood'. Kapitalisation is enough to show that it is a name. If we want t ob be even more clear about that we should use the full name 'Greenwood the Great', which I think is the best solution.

RP-SL-40b: Sorry for coming up with this again, but I found that I used the complete passage later at the end of 'Tal-Elmar', where I place the discussion about the Middle-men. Therefore I would eliminat it here:
Quote:
... RP-SL-37<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn But at some later time RP-SL-38{ [there is no indication of the date]} Galadriel and Celeborn together with Celebrían departed {from}and over Imladris{ and} went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth; there Amroth RP-SL-39{ their}, son of Amdír, at times visited them, and their company was swelled by Nandorin Elves from Lórinand.> RP-SL-41b <HoME 12, Dwarves and Men, Note 67 This according to the traditions of Dol Amroth had been established by seafaring Sindar from the west havens of Beleriand who fled in three small ships when the power of Morgoth overwhelmed the Eldar and the Atani; but it was later increased by adventurers of the Silvan Elves seeking for the Sea who came down the Anduin. RP-SL-43b <Vinyar Tengwar 42 There was already a primitive harbour there of fisherfolk, but these in fear of the Eldar fled into the mountains.> RP-SL-44b <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Amroth and Nimrodel, Note 18 [Footnote to the text: The place of the Elvish haven in Belfalas is marked with the name Edhellond ("Elf-haven{,}" RP-SL-45{ see the Appendix to The Silmarillion under edhel and lond}) on the maps.{decorated map of Middle-earth by Pauline Baynes; but I have found no other occurrence of this name. See Appendix D, p. 274. Cf. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (1962), p. 8: "In the Langstrand and Dol Amroth there were many traditions of the ancient Elvish dwellings, and of the haven at the mouth of the Morthond from which 'westward ships' had sailed as far back as the fall of Eregion in the Second Age."}]> The Silvan Elves were RP-SL-45.5{Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification, though unknown to the Atani until later days: for they were} like the Sindar Teleri, but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the Vales of Anduin. (Of these Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were survivors in the Third Age.) But they were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes.
>
RP-SL-46<Of the Rings of Power But Sauron gathered ...
Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 06-05-2018 at 06:15 AM.
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 02:14 PM   #11
ArcusCalion
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 389
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
RP-SL-29.5: Agreed to Greenwood the Great.

RP-SL-40b: I see why you removed it, but I think that once this sentence is gone, the antecedent to the 'This' is gone as well. The way this new version flows is somewhat choppy. It sounds at first like Galadriel and Celeborn establish a settlement, and then it says it one was founded aftrwards. I think to remedy this all we need to do is add 'settlement' after the 'This' like so:
Quote:
... and their company was swelled by Nandorin Elves from Lórinand.> RP-SL-41b <HoME 12, Dwarves and Men, Note 67 This settlement according to the traditions of Dol Amroth had originally been established by seafaring Sindar ....
For me this flows better and lessens the awkwardness of the transition.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2018, 04:10 PM   #12
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,433
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
RP-SL-40b: Agreed.
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:40 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.