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Old 03-02-2003, 11:43 AM   #1
nPiLL
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Sting Moria Orcs or Balrog?

The dwarves had been thriving in Moria for quite some time. As said in the FotR, something had come and killed them all. Was it actually the Moria Orcs, or the Balrog that killed the dwarves. I was wondering if anyone knew this.
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Old 03-02-2003, 12:30 PM   #2
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I would suggest that the orcs did the "dirty work" of killing the dwarves. The last words in their Annals or whatever that book was that Gandalf studied read "they are coming" and had other references to "them" not "it" so that seems to indicate the dwarves saw the orcs as their main enemy. The Watcher in the Water is also named but there is no reference to balrog.
So there you have my opinion! Some more educated answers will propably be posted later by someone else. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 03-02-2003, 05:43 PM   #3
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As far as I can remember, Tolkien never really distinguishes whether or not the dwarves of moria were slain in the wars with the orcs or by the balrog. I've seen timelines saying that Balin was slain in the wars, but the journal in Moria sure does make conspicuous references to the drums sounds from the deep (the balrog). Maybe someone more knoweledgable in this area can shed some more light on this dilemma. Maybe Tolkien never really wanted us to know?
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Old 03-02-2003, 09:27 PM   #4
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Sting

I believe all of you are wrong. It specifically states in the book that the dwarves dug so deep, that they awoke the Balrog or possibly even Balrogs. So, the Balrog(S) could have killed some dwarves, and when the dwarves were no longer a threat, the orcs moved in. Note: Balrogs are Maia, or beings sent ny the Valar.
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Old 03-03-2003, 01:22 AM   #5
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Just to avoid misunderstandings...are we talking about the time when 1.) Khazad-dūm was invaded for the first time or 2.) does this conversation concern Balin's venture to recolonise the place?
If the answer is 1. then there is no doubt that a balrog had a great deal in the ravage of the dwarves ("Durin's Bane"). This first settlement of dwarves was the one that woke the balrog.
But in the second case I would stick to my first thought that the orcs (and perhaps a few cave-trolls) finished Balin and his crew. The balrog was there no doupt but did it bother to waste his flames on the dwarves? Well, they were really no threat to him as said he/it was a former maia and the greatest(?, excluding Sauron) among Morgoth's corrupted servants. My point is that I think the balrog grew aware that the Ring and another great spirit (Gandalf that is) had entered his realm and therefore took part in the action.
Again, this is just my opinion. May wiser correct me! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 03-03-2003, 02:43 AM   #6
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I agree with Annunfuiniel's concise statement. The Balrog was drawn to the ring, and did not trouble Balin's party. The "drums in the deep" were the drums of the orcs. One question, though, is why the orcs let them be there so long before attacking? Were the upper reaches of Moria then abandoned when they found it?

Sorry about the name!

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]
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Old 03-03-2003, 03:23 AM   #7
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Glad that you agree, Dain (you might still wanna check the spelling of my name, though [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). I agree with you on that drum part, I see them also as the drums of the orcs and not the sound made by the balrog.
To your question: yes, I would think that the upper reaches of Moria were deserted when Balin arrived there. It seems that at first they had to defend themselves against a threat that came from the outside, from east.
I have the feelin' that the orcs were pretty much as scared of the balrog as any other creatures on earth so I really don't see them lodging with it in the dark ditches.
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:10 PM   #8
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Annunfuiniel~
For the most part I agree with your interpretations of the occurrences in Moria, however, I can't see where there is any room for real interpretations on where the drum sounds came from. The drums, as I understand it, came from "the deep." Plus, I've never seen any reference to orcs wielding any sorts of war drums. This is where my feelings of doubt come from concerning Balin's demise. Could you shed any more light on this subject?
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Old 03-04-2003, 03:05 PM   #9
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Good point, Scott. Now you have made me hesitate... Well, it truly seems (I had to re-read the part once more [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) that the drums were a sign of some greater evil than the orcs; the sound appears as a starting shot for them. First the drums then the charge of orcs.

When the drums are first mentioned in the Book of Mazarbul (that's my translation, don't know if the term is right) Balin is already dead and there are only remnants of his force left. So, maybe the few dwarves left only heard those "drums in the deep" without ever facing the source of the sound. Yep, that's just maybe. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Oh, I just found a passage where Gimli asks Gandalf did he face the drummer (while Gandalf was left behind to hold back the attack). This once again seems to indicate that there was A drummer and not a bunch of orcs drumming. So thank you for making me take a closer look on this, Scott! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 03-04-2003, 03:32 PM   #10
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Tolkien

Thanks to you too for shedding some more light on the subject... I think many times people are a little too "stodgy" in their interpretations on the forums.

The only thing that I'm left to wonder about now is the gate watcher. I find it hard to imagine that the Fellowship were the first ones to come across it. Then again, it could have meanderd over to the gate after the dwarves weren't around to defend it.

Opinions, anyone?
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Old 03-04-2003, 06:35 PM   #11
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Sting

The watcher in the water was certainly there towards the end of Balin's reoccupation of Moria. The book from the chamber of Mazarbul recorded that it 'took' one of the Dwarves and that the water had risen to the base of the cliffs.

We cannot get out...........
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Old 03-04-2003, 08:48 PM   #12
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Sting

Thank you all for your input. It answers my question very thouroghly. To give my own input, I believe it was Balrogs that eventually killed off the dwarves. This is because, in the FotR, Gandalf says that swords will not do them any good against a Balrog. So i feel that the dwarves had been fighting orcs for sometime, until they awoke the Balrogs.
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Old 03-04-2003, 10:13 PM   #13
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Balrogs? Just the one, probably. While there could be one or two others left, they would be somewhere else- all the remaining balrogs back together is a scary thought. They wouldn't stay cooped up.
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Old 03-04-2003, 11:19 PM   #14
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Sting

Suillinan,

Sorry to bust your bubbles folks, but in the Silmarillion it clearly states that the Moria Balrog was not the last and only remaining Balrog or Quenya: Valaraukar, The surviving Valaraukar hid deep under ground yet in 1980 of the third age one was found in moria at the base of a mithril vein. It killed two kings of Durin's folk in two years and the Dwarves fled. In 2480 Sauron sent Orcs to habitate the mines of Moria, and both them and the Trolls they brought with them were put into submission by the Balrog, or Durin's Bane. Durin's Bane was killed by Gandalf after a ten day battle. Yet still there are a few remaining demons, of shadow and flame... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

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Old 03-05-2003, 04:21 PM   #15
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Sting

Ten day battle? Last and only? I don't remember any of that said in ANY Tolkien writing.
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Old 03-05-2003, 04:29 PM   #16
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Shield

I think in the Sim it's mentioned. Can't remember exactly were it is at the moment.
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Old 03-05-2003, 05:17 PM   #17
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Sting

Once again thanks for the impressive replies that you left me. My question is certaily answered. I think i will have to read the silmarillion, i have it just never got to reading it. Its just been collecting dust which shouldnt happen. I want to find out more about these Balrogs.
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Old 03-07-2003, 12:05 PM   #18
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Say the balrog attacked. And since he/she was made of fire and such, wouldn't the dwarves be burnt, there wouldn't be anything left. And in the movie and books the balrog broke through the wall and ceiling to get in. Wouldn't that be the same in the entrance way?

Orcs definatly attacked, not a balrog. Orc arrows were foung in corpses of the dwarves and the book said '...drums in the deep...they are coming.'

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