How to pronounce "Smeagol" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nenya · 12-26-2002, 02:26 PM

Someone in some other thread (sorry for the vagueness, I honestly can't remeber who it was and where) said that Smeagol's name was wrongly pronounced in TTT. (Kinda like "Smeegol") So, all you lingusts out there: is that really the case? I had thought that the vowels "ea" would sound more like the "ei" in the beginning of the word "veichle". But that has no grounds at all, and is probably just based on the pronunciation of my mother tongue (or the lack of it actually!)Oh, and Estelyn: I wasn't sure where to post this, so I just made a new thread and dumped it her. Sorry. [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

Man-of-the-Wold · 12-26-2002, 02:51 PM

Well, Sméagol is I think wone of JRRT's Old English dirivatives. So, I'll leave it to the linguists.The Film-makers were very much concerned about the same thing.Also, the way it is spelled in the book there is always an accent acute over the "e" or maybe its on the "a" -- Smeágol.In any case, this I think is supposed to create a dipthong or lilting vowell effect that combines very quickly the sounds of both a long e and long a, which may have been how they were saying in the Film.

Arwen Imladris · 12-26-2002, 05:06 PM

I usually call him See gol but I could see that it could also be called Smeh (canadian eh) gol.

Galadrie1 · 12-26-2002, 05:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Also, the way it is spelled in the book there is always an accent acute over the "e" or maybe its on the "a" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The accent is over the "e", so I think it's supposed to be 'Smay'-gol, or maybe even Smay-ah-gol. Oh dear, I'm confusing myself now...

Nenya · 12-26-2002, 05:44 PM

Does that "é" have anything to do with frech l'accent aigu? Wich would mean that the letter should be pronunced as the e in the word "when",for example, if I remeber right. As a sort of "pure" e.

Galadrie1 · 12-26-2002, 05:49 PM

Doesn't "é" make an "ay" sound in French? Think: Touché! or Olé! [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

Manwe Sulimo · 12-26-2002, 06:10 PM

I always thought it was "smEE-a-gol". Poor me, I guess....

Nenya · 12-26-2002, 06:25 PM

Galadrie1: Like in the word "play"? If you mean that, then no, it doesn't sound like that. In fact that is the mistake most english-speakers do, when trying to pronounce french. (Or you could be meaning just the right thing, and I just haven't got a clue of what you are talking about.)[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

Galadrie1 · 12-26-2002, 06:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Like in the word "play"? If you mean that, then no, it doesn't sound like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh. Alright... Well, if that's true it just means that people have been teaching me incorrectly for the past five years (actually, that's entirely possible. My last French teacher wasn't too great. Though my current teacher is very good (and actually French!) and I think it's the "ay" sound. Now, all you need to do is tell me you live in France and you're first language is French and that I'm completely wrong about everything ).[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

Nenya · 12-26-2002, 06:55 PM

I wish it was...! No, I'm one of those brutal Finns from up north. Still, I'm pretty sure about this. Even though it seems a bit unlikely that I would know better than your french teacher...Do you really end "Touché" with the "ay" phonem?! I'm telling you, there shouldn't be that "y" in there. What about the word "été" (summer, isn't it?), don't tell me you pronounce it like "etay"? (my, I'm getting agressive here. sorry about that, it's just that it's 3am in here, so I'm a bit tired...)

Galadrie1 · 12-26-2002, 07:00 PM

OK, when I write "ay", are you thinking more like "aiee" kind of? Like, someone with a South Carolina drawl? Because that's not what I mean. It's more like a gentle "ay" sound.... I can't really explain this. Um, it's like "ai", not "aiee". E.g.: "été" isn't prounouced "aytay", but "aitai".... OK, I give up. I can't explain. It sounds right in my head, but it can't be written down.[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ][ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

Nenya · 12-26-2002, 07:15 PM

Yeah, I probably know what you mean. But I still think there shouldn't be any of that...umm...damn, I give up. As you said, it can't be written down. Bring your teacher along to the Downs, and THEN we'll hav a new conversation... Ah well, we're probably just misunderstanding each other. Now goodnight to you! (whatever the time may be there)

doug*platypus · 12-26-2002, 07:33 PM

I would've guessed smee-ah-GOL, too. But considering how perfect every word sounds in the movies (like Mean-Arse Morrrgul), I'd say that I was wrong, and not the movies. They seem to have put a LOT of time into the languages; they hired several dialogue coaches for the actors. I think it's one of the things the movies brought across perfectly. Shame not to hear more of Gimli's dwarvish, especially his battle-cry at Helm's Deep."A fair jaw-cracker Dwarf language must be!"

12-26-2002, 11:39 PM

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12-26-2002, 11:48 PM

i was just reading the silmarillion and it said theat EA does not run together it is acctually two syllables, like in Earendil, but it might not apply to non-quenya/sindarin names like smeagol

Schmendrick · 12-27-2002, 03:30 AM

I was also thinking about this after seeing the film. I think (but don't know) that it should be pronounced "Sme-ah-gol" . With the accent on "e" (Sméagol), it should be quite clear that the "e" should be pronounced! (I've studied some linguistics, but don't remember much...)

Schmendrick · 12-27-2002, 03:35 AM

p.s. about the french pronunciation- I agree with you Nenya! And I've studied french at the University for years and have also lived in France!

Galadrie1 · 12-27-2002, 10:46 AM

Alright, after a night of thinking, I realize that I was actually trying to get across the same point as Nenya. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the letter should be pronunced as the e in the word "when",for example, if I remeber right. As a sort of "pure" e. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, that's exactly what I meant, I just didn't understand it when I first read it. Sorry about the confusion.I think what I had been trying to say was: It's like an "ay" sound, only "toned down" (I think ).[ December 27, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]

Bêthberry · 12-27-2002, 12:04 PM

Sharkû usually rings in with this, but since he is busy, I'll make a note. Read Appendix E of LOTR, on Writing and Spelling and Pronunciation of Names.Bethberry

***Sharkû*** · 12-27-2002, 10:22 PM

Not fair, I don't check out Movies as often and closely as other fora.At least I still get to link to <A HREF="http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/OEsteps/pronounc.html" TARGET=_blank>my beloved Old English pronunciation site</A>. In short: é as in bade ea begins with the sound of e and glides towards the back of the mouth, giving a sound not unlike that inbared, Baird; éa is similar but beginning with the vowel é.

12-26-2002, 02:26 PM	#1
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	How to pronounce "Smeagol" Someone in some other thread (sorry for the vagueness, I honestly can't remeber who it was and where) said that Smeagol's name was wrongly pronounced in TTT. (Kinda like "Smeegol") So, all you lingusts out there: is that really the case? <BR>I had thought that the vowels "ea" would sound more like the "ei" in the beginning of the word "veichle". But that has no grounds at all, and is probably just based on the pronunciation of my mother tongue (or the lack of it actually!)<P>Oh, and Estelyn: I wasn't sure where to post this, so I just made a new thread and dumped it her. Sorry. <p>[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

12-26-2002, 02:51 PM	#2
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Well, Sméagol is I think wone of JRRT's Old English dirivatives. So, I'll leave it to the linguists.<P>The Film-makers were very much concerned about the same thing.<P>Also, the way it is spelled in the book there is always an accent acute over the "e" or maybe its on the "a" -- Smeágol.<P>In any case, this I think is supposed to create a dipthong or lilting vowell effect that combines very quickly the sounds of both a long e and long a, which may have been how they were saying in the Film. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

12-26-2002, 05:06 PM	#3
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I usually call him See gol but I could see that it could also be called Smeh (canadian eh) gol. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

12-26-2002, 05:24 PM	#4
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 385	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Also, the way it is spelled in the book there is always an accent acute over the "e" or maybe its on the "a" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The accent is over the "e", so I think it's supposed to be 'Smay'-gol, or maybe even Smay-ah-gol. Oh dear, I'm confusing myself now... __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

12-26-2002, 06:10 PM	#7
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	I always thought it was "smEE-a-gol". Poor me, I guess.... __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-26-2002, 05:44 PM	#5
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	Does that "é" have anything to do with frech l'accent aigu? Wich would mean that the letter should be pronunced as the e in the word "when",for example, if I remeber right. As a sort of "pure" e.

12-26-2002, 05:49 PM	#6
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 385	Doesn't "é" make an "ay" sound in French? Think: <I>Touché!</I> or <I>Olé!</I> <p>[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

12-26-2002, 06:25 PM	#8
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	Galadrie1:<BR>Like in the word "play"? If you mean that, then no, it doesn't sound like that. In fact that is the mistake most english-speakers do, when trying to pronounce french. (Or you could be meaning just the right thing, and I just haven't got a clue of what you are talking about.)<p>[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Nenya ]

12-26-2002, 06:30 PM	#9
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 385	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Like in the word "play"? If you mean that, then no, it doesn't sound like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh. Alright... Well, if that's true it just means that people have been teaching me incorrectly for the past five years (actually, that's entirely possible. My last French teacher wasn't too great. Though my current teacher is very good (and actually French!) and I think it's the "ay" sound. Now, all you need to do is tell me you live in France and you're first language is French and that I'm completely wrong about everything ).<p>[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

12-26-2002, 06:55 PM	#10
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	I wish it was...! No, I'm one of those brutal Finns from up north. <BR>Still, I'm pretty sure about this. Even though it seems a <I>bit</I> unlikely that I would know better than your french teacher...Do you really end "Touché" with the "ay" phonem?! I'm telling you, there shouldn't be that "y" in there. What about the word "été" (summer, isn't it?), don't tell me you pronounce it like "etay"? <BR>(my, I'm getting agressive here. sorry about that, it's just that it's 3am in here, so I'm a bit tired...)

12-26-2002, 07:00 PM	#11
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 385	OK, when I write "ay", are you thinking more like "aiee" kind of? Like, someone with a South Carolina drawl? Because that's not what I mean. It's more like a <I>gentle</I> "ay" sound.... I can't really explain this. Um, it's like "ai", not "aiee". E.g.: "été" isn't prounouced "aytay", but "aitai"....<BR>OK, I give up. I can't explain. It sounds right in my head, but it can't be written down.<P>[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ]<p>[ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

12-26-2002, 07:15 PM	#12
Nenya Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the hand of Lady Galadriel Posts: 127	Yeah, I probably know what you mean. But I still think there shouldn't be any of that...umm...damn, I give up. As you said, it can't be written down. Bring your teacher along to the Downs, and THEN we'll hav a new conversation... Ah well, we're probably just misunderstanding each other.<BR>Now goodnight to you! (whatever the time may be there)

12-26-2002, 07:33 PM	#13
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I would've guessed smee-ah-GOL, too. But considering how perfect every word sounds in the movies (like Mean-Arse Morrrgul), I'd say that I was wrong, and not the movies. They seem to have put a LOT of time into the languages; they hired several dialogue coaches for the actors. I think it's one of the things the movies brought across perfectly. Shame not to hear more of Gimli's dwarvish, especially his battle-cry at Helm's Deep.<P>"A fair jaw-cracker Dwarf language must be!" __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-26-2002, 11:39 PM	#14
hipsuperstar Guest Posts: n/a	ｉ　ａｌｗａｙｓ　ｔｈｏｕｇｈｔ　ｉｔ　ｗａ&#65 363;　ｓｍｅｅｇｕｌ

12-26-2002, 11:48 PM	#15
hipsuperstar Guest Posts: n/a	i was just reading the silmarillion and it said theat EA does not run together it is acctually two syllables, like in Earendil, but it might not apply to non-quenya/sindarin names like smeagol

12-27-2002, 03:30 AM	#16
Schmendrick Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: unidentified Posts: 105	I was also thinking about this after seeing the film. I think (but don't know) that it should be pronounced "Sme-ah-gol" .<BR>With the accent on "e" (Sméagol), it should be quite clear that the "e" should be pronounced!<BR>(I've studied some linguistics, but don't remember much...) __________________ Be strong, saith my heart; I am a soldier, I have seen worse sights than this. - Iliad -

12-27-2002, 03:35 AM	#17
Schmendrick Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: unidentified Posts: 105	p.s. about the french pronunciation- I agree with you Nenya! And I've studied french at the University for years and have also lived in France! __________________ Be strong, saith my heart; I am a soldier, I have seen worse sights than this. - Iliad -

12-27-2002, 10:46 AM	#18
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 385	Alright, after a night of thinking, I realize that I was actually trying to get across the same point as Nenya. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the letter should be pronunced as the e in the word "when",for example, if I remeber right. As a sort of "pure" e. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, that's exactly what I meant, I just didn't understand it when I first read it. Sorry about the confusion.<P>I think what I had been trying to say was: It's like an "ay" sound, only "toned down" (I think ).<p>[ December 27, 2002: Message edited by: Galadrie1 ] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

12-27-2002, 12:04 PM	#19
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,977	Sharkû usually rings in with this, but since he is busy, I'll make a note. Read Appendix E of LOTR, on Writing and Spelling and Pronunciation of Names.<P>Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

12-27-2002, 10:22 PM	#20
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Not fair, I don't check out Movies as often and closely as other fora.<P>At least I still get to link to <A HREF="http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/OEsteps/pronounc.html" TARGET=_blank>my beloved Old English pronunciation site</A>. <BR>In short:<BR><I>é</I> as in <I>bade</I> <BR><I>ea</I> begins with the sound of e and glides towards the back of the mouth, giving a sound not unlike that in<I>bared, Baird</I>; <I>éa</I> is similar but beginning with the vowel <I>é</I>.