Controversy - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rosa Underhill · 02-07-2002, 05:20 PM

Okay, I've got a fifteen page research paper to start and I need something to write it on. The paper is supposed to be an arguementative essay and I wanted something to do with LotR.

I know about the "gay" controversy and the "Christian" controversy, (both of which seem to have been bashed into the ground). Are there any other controversies about LotR that I could form an opinion on and write an essay about? Thanks in advance for the help! (If I can, I'll be sure to credit this place as a source; I'll likely be back to ask questions as the paper progresses, too, so I'll have to credit the source for sure then!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

KayQy · 02-07-2002, 05:57 PM

well, there's always the balrog-wings controversy. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Granted it's been battered down into the pits of Moria, but if you're wanting something relatively unbashed, then you might as well give up now.

Or you might try something along the lines of the difficulties of making it into a movie.

Those are my two pennies, anyways.

Meriadoc · 02-07-2002, 06:55 PM

Well, there's my favourite, who is Tom Bombadil?

Elendur · 02-07-2002, 08:27 PM

I think if you try to write about Who Is Tom Bombadil you will quickly run out of ideas. I think it would be too challenging to write a long paper about Tom. The research would be hard as well.

If you are well read in all of Tolkiens books, the Balrogs Wings/No Wings can easily get you writing ALOT. But then again, do you really think a teacher will want to read such a paper? I dont.

I suggest the Christian thing that has already been pounded on. It is very easy to make connections between the Bible and Tolkiens work. But I try not too seeing as he specifically said there is no allegory whatesoever.

Have fun though.

littlemanpoet · 02-07-2002, 08:46 PM

Hmm...

- You could claim LOTR as a first rate work of twentieth century literature (monstrously huge topic but plenty of available research material)

or

- You could show the important APPLICATIONS (not allegory) of LOTR to modern life such as liberty versus totalitarianism in the Scouring of the Shire -

or

- the significance of the Ring as an application regarding - you name it - money and politics and power - etc.

or

- racism, using the Dwarves as a type of the Jews (that's straight from Tolkien - see his letters), elves versus dwarves, men versus both, the application of hobbits in that entire mix, etc.

all kinds of fun stuff.

Aralaithiel · 02-07-2002, 09:03 PM

I would go with the race relations theme. There is plenty of fodder in Unfinished Tales regarding race realtions, especially between men & elves. And, the Silmarillion also has some juicy tidbits!
I wish you luck! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

02-07-2002, 09:25 PM

Or you can argue that the entire trilogy is an allegory, contrary to what Tolkien has stated. There are many essays and books out there that explain Tolkien's intentions in writing the lord of the rings.

Or else, you can write about LOTR and WWII (Sauron=Hitler).

Or write about the one ring as a source of technology that is curruption, etc. blah blah, and theres always the environmental issue! Good luck!

Kuruharan · 02-07-2002, 10:23 PM

GROAN!!!! Don't even mention research papers. I have two of them to do this semester, and neither one of them are on anything even as remotely interesting as Tolkien. Or even on anything remotely interesting... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Rosa Underhill · 02-08-2002, 03:42 AM

*groan* I'm sorry to hear that, Kuruharan. At least we got to pick what we wanted to argue about...

Thanks for all these great suggestions, guys! Sadly, though, I don't think I can use any of them for my paper. I believe what Tolkien said about LotR not being allegorical (but he did say that it was Christian at heart! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]).

One thing that keeps popping up as an idea to me is: the importance of LotR as an "escapist" novel or the importance of "escapism" in literature. Anyone have any thoughts on how I might research/narrow this topic? I know the critics all about had heart attacks when LotR was named greatest book of the twentieth century but that's about it...

Kuruharan · 02-08-2002, 01:05 PM

How about doing a research paper about the importance of reading Tolkien as an escape from doing research papers. It's a topic I am VERY familiar with. However, I must warn you that professors tend to get very upset when you start trashing their reason for existance. Take it from someone who knows.
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Rhudladion · 02-08-2002, 02:59 PM

You mentioned reading Tolkien as escapism.

How about suggesting that Tolkien's works are escapist of a different kind. He suggested that Myth is the only way to talk about "real truth", yet I don't know a reader who is not captured by the LOTR and as a result doesn't experience some form of escape. So we have an interesting paradox: an author writes an epic story claiming that it communicates real truth (trancendant truth/supernatural or spiritual truth), yet reader's of the epic experience a great release from the world around them, desiring to be part of Middle Earth.

What a concept: Escape into Reality.

There! I've even given you a title. You could easily discuss Tolkien's view of Myth, Tolkien's style, the LOTR's difference from other "fantasy" (I hate calling it that) works, all within the confines of the topic.

Take it or leave it. Good Luck!

Pips · 02-08-2002, 03:46 PM

Hehe, don't you love these kind of papers. I'm writing one like that too.

And it's kinda fun cause I'm turning it against this small little college I go to. It's spilt down the middle. Half for Star Wars, half for Tolkien and I've been comparing them. Did you know Jedi is a recognized as an actual religion now!

We Tolkien Fans aren't that crazy are we?

Aralaithiel · 02-08-2002, 04:19 PM

Hmmm...had not pondered the escapism theme. That's a good one!
Research papers should be considered a form of cruel & unusual punishment! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

goldwine · 02-09-2002, 01:17 AM

There is always the male dominant theme which of course was relational not only to the era but also the theological/ proffessorial time frame. You could relate it to Tolkien's childhhood etc.

the Lorien wanderer · 02-09-2002, 05:29 AM

You could also explore the class hangover that is often debated about. You know, the kind of importance given to one's lineage and the 'servant-master' realtionship between Sam and Frodo.

littlemanpoet · 02-09-2002, 08:16 AM

Great idea, Rhud! Rosa, if you decide to go that way, Tolkien's own essay "On Faerie Stories" is must-reading, in which he describes the PURPOSE for fairie story as being "escape to (oh shoot I forget the right word - something like) recapturing to consolation". Escape is from the dry existence we find ourselves in, recapturing (NOT the right word but my book is loaned out and not handy) is about finding all over again a sense of wonder, and consolation is about bringing back that sense of wonder from the faerie story and seeing that our own existence actually does reflect a piece of it. Like Rhud said, take it or leave it, but it's a good one.

Enedhil · 02-09-2002, 05:29 PM

Re: escapism. I found that, while reading the book, if I had had a bad day, i thought that Tolkien's world was a damn sight better than our own. Granted you have good and evil still having it out with each other, but look at the state of the world here: cars, pollution, holes in the o-zone layer, killing animals for 'sport' and 'fashion', scientist faffling about with our food (GM), 'designer babies', cloning, rape, murder, mugging, vandalism, etc. Whew. Makes middle earth seem slightly better option, despite its flaws. But, like I said, it was after I had a bad day [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Rosa Underhill · 02-09-2002, 11:39 PM

I hear you, Enedhil.

I was reading "On Faerie Stories" last night and am determined to use it as one of my sources. I love what Tolkien says about the gospels of Jesus of Nazareth in there,(but I'm too lazy to go and look it up).

"Escapism" is very important to me, for certain. It's all that got me through middle-school. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think I will start researching the importance of "escapest" literature, particularly LotR. Thanks again for all your help, guys!

littlemanpoet · 02-10-2002, 02:50 PM

Good luck, Rosa! Let us know how it goes. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Pips · 02-10-2002, 08:53 PM

Yeah, Good Luck! Tell us all about your paper and how it went when your done!

Rosa Underhill · 02-10-2002, 09:39 PM

Of course I will! Heh, I might even submit it to the fanfiction section at The Barrow-Downs! (But it'll be a while; the essays not due to be finished until the end of the sememster in May.)

Kuruharan · 02-10-2002, 11:34 PM

Realising, of course, that we will accept no blame if you bomb! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elven-Maiden · 02-11-2002, 04:18 PM

I guess it's not much of a controversy, but the whole singing thing, you could late singing in LotR to various other legends and myths. Maybe... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

02-07-2002, 05:20 PM	#1
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Controversy Okay, I've got a fifteen page research paper to start and I need something to write it on. The paper is supposed to be an arguementative essay and I wanted something to do with LotR. I know about the "gay" controversy and the "Christian" controversy, (both of which seem to have been bashed into the ground). Are there any other controversies about LotR that I could form an opinion on and write an essay about? Thanks in advance for the help! (If I can, I'll be sure to credit this place as a source; I'll likely be back to ask questions as the paper progresses, too, so I'll have to credit the source for sure then!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-07-2002, 05:57 PM	#2
KayQy Wight Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Currently Spain Posts: 250	well, there's always the balrog-wings controversy. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Granted it's been battered down into the pits of Moria, but if you're wanting something relatively unbashed, then you might as well give up now. Or you might try something along the lines of the difficulties of making it into a movie. Those are my two pennies, anyways. __________________ Do you really want to know / Or are you a little scared, Afraid that God is not exactly what you'd have Him be? --OC Supertones, "Wilderness" "Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter." -- Max Beerbohm

02-07-2002, 06:55 PM	#3
Meriadoc Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Valinor Posts: 12	Well, there's my favourite, who is Tom Bombadil? __________________ "You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass." Gandalf

02-07-2002, 08:27 PM	#4
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I think if you try to write about Who Is Tom Bombadil you will quickly run out of ideas. I think it would be too challenging to write a long paper about Tom. The research would be hard as well. If you are well read in all of Tolkiens books, the Balrogs Wings/No Wings can easily get you writing ALOT. But then again, do you really think a teacher will want to read such a paper? I dont. I suggest the Christian thing that has already been pounded on. It is very easy to make connections between the Bible and Tolkiens work. But I try not too seeing as he specifically said there is no allegory whatesoever. Have fun though. __________________ Son of Isildur.

02-07-2002, 09:03 PM	#6
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I would go with the race relations theme. There is plenty of fodder in Unfinished Tales regarding race realtions, especially between men & elves. And, the Silmarillion also has some juicy tidbits! I wish you luck! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-07-2002, 08:46 PM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Hmm... - You could claim LOTR as a first rate work of twentieth century literature (monstrously huge topic but plenty of available research material) or - You could show the important APPLICATIONS (not allegory) of LOTR to modern life such as liberty versus totalitarianism in the Scouring of the Shire - or - the significance of the Ring as an application regarding - you name it - money and politics and power - etc. or - racism, using the Dwarves as a type of the Jews (that's straight from Tolkien - see his letters), elves versus dwarves, men versus both, the application of hobbits in that entire mix, etc. all kinds of fun stuff.

02-07-2002, 09:25 PM	#7
Amanisilion Guest Posts: n/a	Or you can argue that the entire trilogy is an allegory, contrary to what Tolkien has stated. There are many essays and books out there that explain Tolkien's intentions in writing the lord of the rings. Or else, you can write about LOTR and WWII (Sauron=Hitler). Or write about the one ring as a source of technology that is curruption, etc. blah blah, and theres always the environmental issue! Good luck!

02-07-2002, 10:23 PM	#8
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	GROAN!!!! Don't even mention research papers. I have two of them to do this semester, and neither one of them are on anything even as remotely interesting as Tolkien. Or even on anything remotely interesting... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-08-2002, 03:42 AM	#9
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	groan I'm sorry to hear that, Kuruharan. At least we got to pick what we wanted to argue about... Thanks for all these great suggestions, guys! Sadly, though, I don't think I can use any of them for my paper. I believe what Tolkien said about LotR not being allegorical (but he did say that it was Christian at heart! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]). One thing that keeps popping up as an idea to me is: the importance of LotR as an "escapist" novel or the importance of "escapism" in literature. Anyone have any thoughts on how I might research/narrow this topic? I know the critics all about had heart attacks when LotR was named greatest book of the twentieth century but that's about it... __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-08-2002, 01:05 PM	#10
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	How about doing a research paper about the importance of reading Tolkien as an escape from doing research papers. It's a topic I am VERY familiar with. However, I must warn you that professors tend to get very upset when you start trashing their reason for existance. Take it from someone who knows. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-08-2002, 02:59 PM	#11
Rhudladion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 63	You mentioned reading Tolkien as escapism. How about suggesting that Tolkien's works are escapist of a different kind. He suggested that Myth is the only way to talk about "real truth", yet I don't know a reader who is not captured by the LOTR and as a result doesn't experience some form of escape. So we have an interesting paradox: an author writes an epic story claiming that it communicates real truth (trancendant truth/supernatural or spiritual truth), yet reader's of the epic experience a great release from the world around them, desiring to be part of Middle Earth. What a concept: Escape into Reality. There! I've even given you a title. You could easily discuss Tolkien's view of Myth, Tolkien's style, the LOTR's difference from other "fantasy" (I hate calling it that) works, all within the confines of the topic. Take it or leave it. Good Luck!

02-08-2002, 03:46 PM	#12
Pips Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brandyhall, Texas Posts: 67	Hehe, don't you love these kind of papers. I'm writing one like that too. And it's kinda fun cause I'm turning it against this small little college I go to. It's spilt down the middle. Half for Star Wars, half for Tolkien and I've been comparing them. Did you know Jedi is a recognized as an actual religion now! We Tolkien Fans aren't that crazy are we?

02-08-2002, 04:19 PM	#13
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Hmmm...had not pondered the escapism theme. That's a good one! Research papers should be considered a form of cruel & unusual punishment! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-09-2002, 01:17 AM	#14
goldwine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South Australia Posts: 64	There is always the male dominant theme which of course was relational not only to the era but also the theological/ proffessorial time frame. You could relate it to Tolkien's childhhood etc. __________________ 2A Balrog. A demon from the underpants (Gandalf)

02-09-2002, 05:29 AM	#15
the Lorien wanderer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 276	You could also explore the class hangover that is often debated about. You know, the kind of importance given to one's lineage and the 'servant-master' realtionship between Sam and Frodo.

02-09-2002, 08:16 AM	#16
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Great idea, Rhud! Rosa, if you decide to go that way, Tolkien's own essay "On Faerie Stories" is must-reading, in which he describes the PURPOSE for fairie story as being "escape to (oh shoot I forget the right word - something like) recapturing to consolation". Escape is from the dry existence we find ourselves in, recapturing (NOT the right word but my book is loaned out and not handy) is about finding all over again a sense of wonder, and consolation is about bringing back that sense of wonder from the faerie story and seeing that our own existence actually does reflect a piece of it. Like Rhud said, take it or leave it, but it's a good one.

02-09-2002, 05:29 PM	#17
Enedhil Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 102	Re: escapism. I found that, while reading the book, if I had had a bad day, i thought that Tolkien's world was a damn sight better than our own. Granted you have good and evil still having it out with each other, but look at the state of the world here: cars, pollution, holes in the o-zone layer, killing animals for 'sport' and 'fashion', scientist faffling about with our food (GM), 'designer babies', cloning, rape, murder, mugging, vandalism, etc. Whew. Makes middle earth seem slightly better option, despite its flaws. But, like I said, it was after I had a bad day [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Meanwhile these three remain: Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is Love.

02-09-2002, 11:39 PM	#18
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	I hear you, Enedhil. I was reading "On Faerie Stories" last night and am determined to use it as one of my sources. I love what Tolkien says about the gospels of Jesus of Nazareth in there,(but I'm too lazy to go and look it up). "Escapism" is very important to me, for certain. It's all that got me through middle-school. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think I will start researching the importance of "escapest" literature, particularly LotR. Thanks again for all your help, guys! __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-10-2002, 02:50 PM	#19
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Good luck, Rosa! Let us know how it goes. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

02-10-2002, 08:53 PM	#20
Pips Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brandyhall, Texas Posts: 67	Yeah, Good Luck! Tell us all about your paper and how it went when your done!

02-10-2002, 09:39 PM	#21
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Of course I will! Heh, I might even submit it to the fanfiction section at The Barrow-Downs! (But it'll be a while; the essays not due to be finished until the end of the sememster in May.) __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-10-2002, 11:34 PM	#22
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	Realising, of course, that we will accept no blame if you bomb! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-11-2002, 04:18 PM	#23
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	I guess it's not much of a controversy, but the whole singing thing, you could late singing in LotR to various other legends and myths. Maybe... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile