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Old 07-28-2004, 02:59 PM   #1
Alchisiel
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Question Doom of the Noldor

I'm reading the Silm for the second time and got to pondering about the Doom of the Noldor. It seems that the Doom also applied to the Elves that never came to Valinor. I know the Doom of the Noldor is that they will become weary of the world but the other Elves, the Avari? I believe, had nothing to do with the rebellion. So why doom them, they did nothing wrong. Do I have it wrong or does this just not seem fair?

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Old 07-28-2004, 03:10 PM   #2
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A few random thoughts:

The Doom specifically applies to the House of Feanor and those who follow them.
"On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also ."
The greater part of the Noldor (non-Feanorians) were presumably affected because they wouldn't turn back and allied themselves with the Feanorians.

Doriath and the green elves seem to be part of the curse but their ills might have been at least as great had the Noldor not come. Recall Morgoths offensive as they were entering Beleriand. And Cirdan would have been swiftly driven from Eglarest and Brithombar.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:23 PM   #3
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I was thinking more of the elves that never went to Valinor why involve them? King Thingol wanted nothing to do with Feanor and his sons so why did the doom involve him and his kingdom?

So what you are saying is that because the elves that didn't leave ME were friendly with the Noldor that they fell under the same doom? That doesn't seem fair.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:36 PM   #4
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Now! Didn't your mother ever tell you "life isn't fair."

But I'm really just suggesting that their fates were more intertwined with the Noldor then part of the Curse. Without the Noldor all of Beleriand but Doriath was in the process of being "Morgothized." If they chose to stay in Beleriand it would have to be in some way in cooperation with the houses of the Noldor and hence would have to be effected by Noldor success/failure.

And in a way the Noldor did have some positive effect. By battling Morgoth they essentially contained his influence to an area northeast of Middle-earth and outside of the Middle-earth of the Second and Third Ages, presumably making that area relatively more safe then it would have been.

But one could argue the net Noldor effect for dwarves was negative, despite great technilogical advances for them, learning from the Noldor.
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Old 07-28-2004, 07:41 PM   #5
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Didn't it have to do with the Silmarili? If I remember correctly (I'm not at home at the moment, so I can't look it up in my copy of the Silm), when Beren gave the Silmaril to Thingol, he became obsessed with it, "for such was its power." And I seem to remember something about "any who so even named those blessed jewels in desire were caught up in the Oath, and moved a great power from slumber." (That's not a direct quote, but it's something like that.)

Meh, I'm tired and overly warm. Don't mind me.
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Old 08-03-2004, 04:05 PM   #6
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The Noldor's exile to Middle Earth had to do with the Silmarils -- remember Melkor killed Finwe and stole the jewels -- which was the reason they made war on the dark lord.

No the Silmarils had nothing to do with it -- i quote:

Quote:
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
"Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall swell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in E, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come now to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken." (Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor)
So you see it is all due to kin-slaying -- sad but true.
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Old 08-03-2004, 09:18 PM   #7
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I just don't understand why the Avari become weary of the world. They were never in Valinor so why does the doom pertain to them? I just don't get it. The Avari were never involved in the kinslaying or the Silmarils so why does the doom of the Noldor apply to them? Why would Iluvatar doom all his children to the same fate?
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Last edited by Alchisiel; 08-03-2004 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Forgot something.
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:05 PM   #8
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It is said that the Avari were corrupted by Morgoth -- alot of them became orcs. As to why they became weary of the world -- heheh elves tend to do that alot. I don't think Illuvitar would doom his children needlesly Alchisiel.
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Old 08-05-2004, 01:07 AM   #9
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I just don't understand why the Avari become weary of the world. (Alchisiel)
Men would dominate the world. The Quendi want status quo in Middle-earth preserved, as seen in Galadriel's use of Nenya in Lothlrien. Men, on the other hand, would change the world. It's partly due to Eru's gift . . .
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Therefore [Ilvatar] willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and in deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. (QS I)
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:44 PM   #10
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I just don't understand why the Avari become weary of the world. (Alchisiel)
Maybe it's living for so long in one place? Everyone wants a change.
What's more, the enchanting tales of a realm, the door to which has at last been opened.
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Old 08-10-2004, 10:38 PM   #11
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Silmaril By George I think I've got it!!!

I've read the Akallabeth and I think I understand the weariness of the Elves now.

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The Eldar, you say, are unpunished, and even those who rebelled do not die. Yet that is to them neither reward nor punishment, but the fullfillment of their being. They cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it for as long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?

Basically I understand it like this: The Eldar live for so long that the world becomes almost a torment for them or a weariness if you get my meaning. And that's why they go to the Undying Lands/Aman/Blessed Realm/Valinor because their weariness can be lessened there. Do I have it?
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Old 08-11-2004, 02:40 AM   #12
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Firstly, I have to answer the Thingol/Doriath question. It says specifically in Silm. that it was when he asked Beren to bring back the Silmaril that Doriath fell under the doom.

The sindar were cursed because they had contact with the noldor, and the same goes for the edain. The avari, well... wouldn't you be tired after living for 100,000 years?
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Old 08-12-2004, 08:40 PM   #13
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Sting

All elves faded but it wasn't due to the doom of the noldor. Over time the fea or spirit of the elves consumed their hroar or body. This was because of a weakness of the body due to the general marring of Arda by Melkor. The elves were able to pospone this fading in Aman due to the different passage of time there. If any elf remained in Middle Earth they would fade. The elves in ME became weary of the world due to all the death there, while they remained unchanged all other living creatures would die. This after a while is depressing and so they become weary of the world.
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Old 08-14-2004, 12:15 PM   #14
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Over time the fea or spirit of the elves consumed their hroar or body.
--Voralphion

Really? Could you tell me where you found this information, so I can read up on it?

Something else that is interesting is that the Doom of the Noldor does not seem to be limited to Elves. The Silm says that Huan too fell under this doom because he faithfully served one of Feanor's sons.

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Now the chief of the wolfhounds that followed Celegorm was named Huan. He was not born in Middle-earth, but came from the Blessed Realm; for Orome had given him to Celegorm long ago in Valinor, and there he had followed the horn of his master, before evil came. Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world. [Italics are mine.]
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Old 08-15-2004, 07:15 PM   #15
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Could you tell me where you found this information, so I can read up on it?
It's in HoME X Morgoth's Ring
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Old 08-15-2004, 09:02 PM   #16
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