Elvish Mortality

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Elves, and not Men, are closer to the Earth and to life. Men have less happiness here, and are apparently less in tune with the rythym of things on Earth -- apparently because they belong truly with Illuvitar.

Yet Elves are not natural; they are immortal, and so distanced from the natural world in this respect. Men are, therefore, more natural... Thoughts?

Edit: This post was rather rushed, but I'm sure you'll get its meaning. That is, that although the Eldar are said to be better adapted to the Earth than Men, they are ethereal beings and not of the natural world. Men are of the natural world -- we are mere animals in all biological senses, eg of mortality and afflictions.

[ July 16, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Mariska Greenleaf]

The question is, what do you mean by "natural"?
The elves are much closer to nature than men, they have been around for a much longer time and are like one with nature. Because of their immortality they have a lot more responsibilities than men have. I think this immortality is not only a blessing, but also a curse because of this. They are closer to their creator, which perhaps makes them less natural. Also, because they are so perfect and good at everything, you could consider them to be unnatural. And in that case, men, with all their mistakes and lust for power are more natural.
But I would call them more "real" than elves, and elves in the end more "natural" than men, or is this a contradictio in terminis?

[Finwe]

The way that I see it is, using the definition of natural that means "close to nature," I think that the Elves are more natural. They are very in tune with nature and their world, unlike Men, who romp in and destroy everything in sight to make way for themselves. The Elves managed to make peace with nature, and all of their buildings are in harmony with it. They don't need to raze everything to the ground.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

I think this is difficult to understand, and the reason is logical: we belong to the kind of men.
Therefor, in my opinion, it is hard to discuss what race is more natural.
What we feel as "natural", for instance, being mortal, is maybe not as natural as we think... It is the nature of men to die some day, and it is the nature of elves to live on forever.

[Finwe]

That's very true. But then again, I always think of myself as an Elf at heart. I think the Mannish part of my personality is quickly losing out to the Elvish part. That's also why I tend to identify with Elves far more than I do with Men. We share a similar love for nature and all things good and green.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

I feel the exact same way!
It is the love for nature and it's beings, the love for all beautiful things in the world, and the feeling that you are responsible for the maintenance of it.
It is difficult for other people to understand, because if you don't feel it in your heart, there is no way you can understand what it means...
And most of the time, I'm actually ashamed of being part of mankind, because they destroy everything without thinking about the consequences. Elves would never let that happen. So, thinking of myself as an elf makes me feel a lot better.
And of course, I want to live forever!
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[tinewelt]

just to add this, I agree with the last two posts. I am much more involved with the elves than mortal men. However, I was wondering about this. In terms of being natural, when Illuvatar created the firstborn, he also had his "blueprint" for men also. When he created these two races, do you think he already forseen that the elves would eventually leave middle earth and men would be the dominant race for the rest of ME's endurance? Because if he did, it would seem to me that men are more natural because they stayed in the"natural" world of ME. But, as already pointed out, the firstborn were closer to Eru than any other, so that's pretty hard evidence as well. any thoughts?

[The Saucepan Man]

It seems to me that Elves are actually a lot less natural beings than Men, as a result of their immortality. It is the very essence of nature that living things grow, thrive and then die out, thus making way for the new. But Elves do not experience this cycle of life. They simply grow and thrive and thrive and thrive and so on (unless they are unfortunate enough to die in battle or of grief). The cycle of life allows for flexibility and adaptability to changing conditions, a key weapon in nature's armoury. And adaptability is, in JRRT's world, very much a feature of Man, but most certainly not of Elves.

And this leads me to wonder whether Elves really can be said to be closer to nature. The fact that they are not able to participate in the cycle of life leads them to try to prevent it occurring in other things. They seek to preserve their environment, to prevent change and to maintain it as it is, contrary to the normal laws of nature. The obvious example is Galadriel's use of Nenya to embalm the realm of Lothlorien.

And so I find it difficult to say either that Elves are particularly "natural" or that they are particularly "close to nature". Their existence is out of step with the normal laws of nature and their actions in many ways are directed towards defying those laws.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Mmmm, thanks Saucepan, that's exactly what I mean. (Good to see you in here by the way.) Elves are not normal animals of the living world; Men, however, are. We are born, live and die.

Elves, seemingly, are also biological creatures. They too are born, they too need to eat, they inhabit living bodies and can die (although not simply by themselves). However they are distanced from the living world in many respects. In the living world, Elves are a bizzarre and strange anomaly that does not fit in with the normal pattern of earthly life. Men are not an anomaly in this sense; in terms of Tolkien lore, the only thing that distinguishes us from animals is our mind and our fëa (spirit), and in other respects -- in Arda at least -- Men are simply normal, biologically-functioning animals.

The same cannot be said about Elves. While it is true that they do 'belong' in Arda to a greater extent than the fëar of Men do (that is, because they live out their entire existence here while Men depart), the statement that they are more a part of the natural world -- of the laws that govern it, the laws that govern life -- than we are is untrue. Humans fit in perfectly with these laws; Elves break a great many of them. Their place is in Arda and not with Illuvitar, but they are not more involved in the processes of nature. They place here is more that of a 'governer', I feel, than a 'part of' the world -- the reason they have mostly departed to aptly named Undying Lands, and do not dwell in Middle-Earth any longer. (This also, with me at least, puts paid to the suggestion that the intercession of the Valar, i.e. in taking the Eldar to Valinor, was not right; it is clear that they belong there more than they do here. It is said that they are closer to the Maiar than Men, much closer, and thus it is apt that they live there with them.)

But, as already pointed out, the firstborn were closer to Eru than any other, so that's pretty hard evidence as well.

To the contrary, that statement is untrue. Elves are closer to Ainur, but Men are closer to Eru. Elves, staying in Arda, are distanced from Illuvitar but akin to the Ainur; but Men, departing from the world, join Eru at last. 'Happiness in the world' is not theirs, but happiness with Eru is -- much as the Ainur are with Elves (Elves must leave Middle-Earth and go to Valinor to be happy).

Ok, sorry for the hasty thread-starter, I hope I have elaborated on it satisfactorily now.

[The Saucepan Man]

Mmmm, thanks Saucepan, that's exactly what I mean.

Yes, I had thoughts along these lines too, when I first became aware of this Elvish obsession with preserving things. The link between their immortality and their desire to imbue this quality in their surroundings seemed clear to me. But I also found it strange that their condition seemed so out of step with the normal laws of nature.

Then again, my view of the key importance in nature of the cycle of life is premised upon the applicability of the process of evolution, which requires that one generation dies out and makes way for the next so that organisms can continue to evolve to suit changing conditions. Now, I regard evolution as a given in the real world (and I recognise that many disagree with me on that), but it seems to me that it is a concept which has very little (if any) applicability in ME. Elves and Men were born as such - they did not evolve from apes. Indeed, all life in ME seems to exist in the state in which it first appeared in the world, save for those creatures which have been twisted and/or bred by Morgoth and Sauron.

So, if there is no evolution in ME, this begs the question of whether the cycle of life is actually an integral part of nature in that world. If creatures exist in a perpetual state and never evolve, there is really no need for generations to die out so as to make way for the new. And if this is the nature of nature (so to speak) in ME, it follows that Elves may in fact be the more natural creatures within the context of that world (if not our own).

[ July 16, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Finwe]

The way I see it is that since evolution as we know it doesn't play a part in Middle-earth, then it would be Men who would be the "unnatural" ones. If you look closely at their history, they did go through a bit of evolution, or at least culturally. In the beginning, when they first awoke, they were a rustic, uncultured folk. When they came into contact with the Elves, they "evolved" into a very cultured race, almost like the Elves.

[tinewelt]

Gwahir... after reading your post I begin now to understand more of what you are saying,and rather agree with you because until now i have been rather neutral onthis subject. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I have a question though... about this quote you made...

'Happiness in the world' is not theirs, but happiness with Eru is -- much as the Ainur are with Elves (Elves must leave Middle-Earth and go to Valinor to be happy).

this is a tough question to word correctly, so here goes. Is this true of all elves from the beginning? Example.... it kind of seems to me like certain elves (legolas) were content and wonderfully happy in middle earth. When the ents arrived at helms deep, he wanted badly to go into the forest and walk under the trees, then also the pact with gimli to come back and see fangorn together and visit the glittering caves. Also, he rather enjoyed lothlorien. However, when he recieved his message from Galadriel about the gulls, he started longing for the sea. Do you think maybe elves who are not subjected to the sea or have knowledge of Valinor (or wise elves such as Galadriel or Elrond) really have a longing for the undying lands? (such as the woodland elves of mirkwood?) Or do all elves have the hidden desire (sixth sense) to leave for Valinor? Also, it seems funny to me that if all the elves did not care for middle earth and were not happy in it, that they would stay and fight for it for so long. (especially if they knew that they would later be leaving it anyway) But I guess thats way above my reasoning. lol What is your opinion? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

All Elves have a Sea-longing deep inside them, no matter how much they love Middle-earth. Those who haven't really accepted it, for example, Legolas in the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring, will realize it as soon as they see the Sea. They have that Sea-longing, especially the Moriquendi, because on the Great Journey to the Sea, and thence to Valinor, they turned aside, and weren't able to sail over the Sea that they loved so much.

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe that Elves inherently contain a "natural" quality from being bound to the Earth for eternity. Although they may not be involved in the cycle of life and death that we consider natural, they are able to witness and understand it and they are caretakers of this natural cycle, preserving what natural beauty they may as the flow of years passes them by. Let us also not forget that it was the Numenoreans, a race of men, who attempted to disrupt their own natural cycle by trying to preserve their lives and by preserving the bodies of their dead. It seems that men are constantly at odds with the natural world, trying as hard as possible not to be bound with their fates and struggling against the natural course of their lives. Elves transcend this struggle because they feel deeply akin to all things in nature, and being bound to the earth they more fully understand the many cycles of the natural world.

[Cúdae]

Saucepan Man, good point on evolution. That doesn't seem to work in Middle-Earth, which messes up my entire thought process. However I have to say that I feel that the Elves are less natural then the Men of Middle-Earth. At the base of the life cycle is death. Death creates life and life creates death, so to speak. What I mean by death creating life is that whole circle of life thing described in the Disney movie the Lion King: The antelope eats the grass, the lion eats the antelope, the lion eventually dies, the death of the lion fertilizes the grass and so on. (Or something like that, haven't watched the movie in a while.)

It seems to me that the Elves aren't contributing to the life cycle. They seem to be reaping the benefits without putting in their share. Thus bringing themselves in tune with nature, but not being a "working" part of it either. Men, however less in tune with nature they may be, are a working part of it. If one does nothing else in life, one will die. But an elf will not die, will not continue that fertilizing the grass idea but will continue the eating the antelope idea.

**blinks** I have had way too much coffee. Hopefully that made some sense.

[FingolfintheBold]

Gotta throw in my two cents... I agree that men are more "natrual" then elves. Elves are higher, above the things of earth which are mortal. They are much more timeless and remote...

Men are closer to the animals and other beings, not in knowledge of them, but in that they share a common path to their end that the elves never know.

Heres another question: If i were to post again on this subject, will i have thrown in four cents? if again will i have thrown in six, or is it exponentioal*spelling* in which case I would have thrown in eight...

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

So, if there is no evolution in ME...

Are you quite sure there wasn't? How old is Arda supposed to be? I would actually guess at millions and millions of years; the first few chapters in the Sil describe a past -- with Almaran etc. -- that may have existed a billion years ago. The Ainur, of course, could wait it out, and so a billion years of history does not need to be included in the annals.

In this huge timeframe (perhaps not quite a billion but rather less, perhaps more, but surely a very long time), could evolution not have existed? It may well have done. Perhaps some demi-divine intercession on the part of the Ainur was required for it, but it is possible that it did happen.

However, even if evolution is not present, the Quendi still do not fit in with the living world. Whether evolution exists or not, humans are part of a natural world and a cycle of things that Elves are not. Their closeness with nature comes from a love of the earth, of creation and of its beauty rather than an affinity with it.

Tinewelt, yes, all Eldar do have the sea-longing, although it needs to be awakened. Similar, I guess, to the human love of life. The paralell between our own inevitable departure to Illuvitar and the Elvish departure to Valinor is clear. The Elves belong in the Undying Lands, and we, although we have our roots here, belong with Eru.

[Lord of Angmar]

Evolution could certainly exist in Middle-earth. Although I do not enjoy discussing the more "scientific" aspects of Tolkien's world, it is possible to conceive that there was evolution in Middle-earth at the beginning. When we speak of the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings, we are talking about an extremely narrow frame of time, evolutionarily speaking, and it would not be possible to witness in either of these texts the evolution of any species on any level other than emotionally and spiritually. If you believe in such ideas as evolution, then you must note that it takes millions of years for anything to evolve recognizably. This could not have been documented in Tolkien's world after the First Age or even after the awakening of the Firstborn. So it is entirely possible that there was evolution in Middle-earth. Having said this, I feel strongly that this is a topic Tolkien would not have wanted us to discuss, as there can be no definitive argument either way and as his writings were not meant to be scientifically debated.

[Elianna]

To Lord of Angmar: Ha! You think evolution is a scientific debate? That's a laugh. True science is test-able and repeat-able, observe-able. Evolution is none of these.

But that's beside the point, as far as evolution in Middle Earth in general, the Elves were Elves when they first awoke, the Men were Men, the Dwarves were Dwarves. We are clearly told that, so I don't see any room for debate.

And about the Elves being more or less natural: Grab a copy of Morgoth's Ring, HoME v 10. In the ch "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" we are told:
"In the Elder Days, and in the ages before the Dominion of Men, there were times of great trouble and many griefs and evil chances; and Death afflicted all the Eldar, as it did all of living things in Arda..."
So, Elves were affected by Death just like every other living and natural thing.
After that we are told :
"Now the Eldar are immortal within Arda according to their right nature."
So, Elves are natural, it's just that they have their own kind of nature which a bit different than us lowly Engwar.

If you interpret these passages differently, please tell me.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

There is some evolution in Middle-Earth [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Consider hobbits, for instance. They evolved from men. And it is also said that Oliphaunts in the Third Age are bigger than their descendants in later ages (which reminded me of mammoths [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

And taking into account that this happens in such a short period of time, as has been pointed out by Gwaihir and Lord of Angmar, that means that in Middle-Earth evolution is in fact extremly fast, much faster than in 'real Earth' [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Elianna]

Amarie of the Vanyar:
Oliphaunts are an example of de-volution, not evolution. The decendants of oliphaunts are smaller than true oliphaunts. They got worse over time, not better (which it the definition of evolution).

And about Hobbits: Yes they did kinda evolve from Men. But...I would think Hobbits and Men could have children together if they tried, so they're still the same species (technically speaking). So Hobbits are only an example of micro-evolution, not macro-evolution, (changing so much as to become a different species) which is what I thought we were talking about.
If we're not talking about macro-evolution, but just evolution in general, then yeah duh, all the races evolved (got better over time) in different ways.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Sorry Elianna, but evolution is evolution, it doesn't matter whether the descendant is smaller or bigger than the ancestor [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] As long as the descendant is better adapted to the new environment, it will survive, irrespective of its size, and therefore it cannot be considered a de-volution [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

"Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions.
Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

You can find this quote and a further explanation on what evolution is in this link: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evol...efinition.html

[Elianna]

Amarie of the Vanyar:
Yeah, okay, my bad there. I had forgotten about that part of evolution's definition. In that case, oliphaunts are still members of the trunked mammal family/phylum/class/order (whichever it was, I can't remember. It was three years ago! ). So it's micro-evolution again, like Men to Hobbits.

But of course this doesn't help answer Gwaihir's question. Sorry Gwaihir!

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

To Lord of Angmar: Ha! You think evolution is a scientific debate? That's a laugh.

Of course it's a scientific debate. Here within the contexts of Tolkien's creation, I should hope.

Yes, the development of Hobbits is interesting, and does appear to be natural. I think, based on this evidence and on the relatively unchartered (but allowing for satisfacory guesswork) aeons of time that passed before the awakening of the Eldar, that evolution (or some kind of natural process for the changing development of living things) probably does exist in ME. But still, even without evolution, Elves are not natural living things like Men are.

Actually I don't have all that much to add at the moment... I've sort of said everything I think in my posts so far. *scratches head* thanks for all the replies ppl -- including yours, Erianna, although your knowledge of the finer details of biological processes may need touching up [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img].

Note to Erianna (re HoME quotes) : I don't think the Elvish attachment to the Earth can be disputed; it is their attachment to life that can be. It is odd that they should be so unnatural and ethereal themselves, and yet have this connection with Arda that they do. The likeness to the Ainur is striking.

Of course, it all fits in. They may not be natural, but that their immortal home and place is on Earth is undeniable.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Going back to the debate, Gwaihir, I agree with you, Elves are not natural in Marred Arda. In my opinion their nature is much closer than men's to what Arda should have been, and that is why they don't fit in Middle-Earth. And I also agree with you in that the best place for them is Aman, which is the only part of Arda that is not marred. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Elianna]

So, we agree about the Elves. (wow! ; ) ) That's what I was saying with the second quote from HoME. They're not natural here, but they are in Aman, the Blessed Realm.

As far as our little evolution debate goes, I'd love to continue it with you guys, but let's not talk about it here, otherwise the Barrow, or whoever monitors this part of the forum, will get angry. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] E-mail me sometime! (Please no junk mail, I'm trusting you guys) fizgig@comcast.net