Currency in Aman and Arda?

[Galadriel]

I know, I know. I just started two threads in quick succession. So sue me By the way, I think this topic has already been discussed, but I couldn't find it anywhere, so I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

I'm a little confused about the currency in Aman and Arda. It's said that Aman grew rich with the jewels of the Noldor, but I've never seen elves engage in any kind of monetary trade or system. There seems to be a very primitive sort of barter system, where one favour is met with another. I know that jewels and pearls were given to the Dwarves when they built Menegroth, but I still don't know. There seems to be little distinction between an elf that is a fisherman and an elf that's a lord, only that their jobs are different, and the lord probably wears better clothes. The reason I'm saying this is because I've never seen an elf-servant (there's a butler in The Hobbit, but even he seems to be rather authoritative); that probably indicates that elves were generally rather well-off, and few engaged in 'lowly' jobs.

The only currency I've come across in ME is the silver pennies that are used in Bree when Merry loses his ponies.

Either way, could someone clear this up? Thanks!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As for most of the kingdoms of Men, I guess that's just what you said - the silver pennies, I am not aware of any other mention of currency elsewhere. We can only speculate if there was more or less unified currency (perhaps left from the Númenorean times), or if other kinds of people had different currencies of their own. It would make sense, in my opinion, if the more "primitive" nations of Men had simpler sort of barter-systems, somewhere using different things than money as the "currency" (as in, it used to be e.g. silk in some nations in the past in our world, and so on); and those who came in contact with the Dúnedain (so in time of LotR, the lands which used to be the provinces of Gondor and Arnor, including Hobbit-lands; it seems logical that Rohanians would accept the system as well by that time) started to use money (which I can easily imagine being "invented" by the Númenoreans, especially with their sort of colonial system it would make a lot of sense, because they would need some common currency for trade among themselves, when their merchants brought goods from various parts of the world).

As for other races, and earlier times, I can imagine the Dwarves trading for gems and various metal ingots, of which they'd have really abundant amount. Gems and precious metals would be used also in "inter-racial trade", as it seems to be mentioned also in Sil and everywhere. It is worth mentioning that in the Hobbit, Thorin, when explaining the history of Erebor to Bilbo, mentions that the Dwarves under the Mountain used to trade their craft for food provided by the Men of Dale; and it is not clear whether they used money as a sort of means for it or if it was just a sort of barter-trade. Also, I don't know if the Dwarves would have had any need for having a currency among themselves.

Personally, my belief is that the non-human races would have had rather different system of trade, or even a rather different attitude towards personal ownership. For that matter, I am pretty convinced that the Elves did not really care - yes, that's the word - about private ownership of something. Everything indicates that they did not have much of a bond to material things (with a few exceptions, and note that it is mostly considered negative, like Fëanor's case). Also, you never hear about any social differences between Elves in this manner - simply because, I believe, there was nothing to begin with. Yes, an Elven King probably had much more fancy clothes than the others, adorned with jewellery and such, but that was simply as a symbol of his status as a King, which had nothing to do with ownership - and the other Elves would simply not wear an adorned crown, because they were not the King, but if they wanted, I think nothing would prevent them from getting themselves one. Especially given the Elven immortality, it is only natural that they would not care so much about material possessions - as they would pass, sooner or later, while the Elf will continue living. The Elves seemed to merrily enjoy material pleasures when they lasted - their houses, food, drink, clothes, everything was wonderful, we are told - but they were not, sort of, bound to it. They also enjoyed the nature and so on, which of course did not belong to anybody, and I think they'd perceive their crafted materials in the same way: simply as an "extension" of the nature, something they only made more beautiful, but using the substance which did not belong to anybody in the first place. Of course, if an Elf warrior owned a sword, the others perceived it as his and would not use it, but there was probably no need for "law" like that, and nobody would come to him asking "how much do you want for it?" If the Elf wanted to give it away, he would do so and anybody could pick the sword up, but if he didn't want to, nobody would force him. We can see an echo of this, I believe, also in the request of the Valar themselves to Fëanor: they had the respect for private property in this way that they would not force Fëanor to give his Silmarils away as they were his. Note also that they did not start talking about buying them from him or something.

In general terms, I would say the Elven society would be the closest to what we might call communism: each Elf was working, but when it came to making a banquet (like in Gildor's case), it really did not matter who eats five pieces of bread and who eats only one, it seemed that they had always more than enough, and so one can assume that for example an Elven baker would not mind how much of lembas he made, because he seemingly just enjoyed making them and also sort of knew that if he wanted a jeweller to make him some nice jewels, he would do it for him just the same as he bakes the bread for him.

In any case, at least when it comes to Aman, I cannot imagine any sort of currency existing there - given that it was a Paradise-sort of land, it was really not necessary to trade anything for anything there.

[Galadriel]

That was a very well thought out answer But could you clear up one more thing for me, if you don't mind: For the elves in Aman and Arda, were there shops and places they could ask for clothes and the like? Or did they have to make them themselves?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

That was a very well thought out answer But could you clear up one more thing for me, if you don't mind: For the elves in Aman and Arda, were there shops and places they could ask for clothes and the like? Or did they have to make them themselves?

Well, bear in mind that although it is all based on the sources we have, it is purely my conclusion, perhaps somebody might disagree. Nevertheless, as for your question, I think it is the same - I cannot imagine Elves having "shops" in real at all. If you wanted, say, new clothes, either you had to make them yourself, or you went to somebody whom you knew (and bear in mind that among the Elves, probably everybody knew more or less everybody, given their lifespan), and asked him to make it for you. I got the impression that the Elves preferred to make the clothes for themselves, as that's also the way to make them most to their liking, but obviously there also were some folks who tended to make clothes for the others - for example, in Lórien, we read that the cloaks for the Fellowship were made by Galadriel and some of her maidens, I assume from time to time some Elves might've been given them as well. Also from other things, I think acquiring new possessions among the Elves was often through the way of a gift - you can also see it with the Fellowship, or with various visitors in Menegroth and so on - you simply didn't come and ask "hello, how much would this bow cost?", but somebody gave it to you. I assume that, let's say, if an elven hunter discovered that he needs a new bow, mostly by the time he would start asking for it, some of his good friends would have already noticed it and made him a new one, or something like that. Of course, that's one of the things. Given how skilled the Eldar usually were, I believe they made lots of things for themselves. But there were probably always people around willing to make something for you, if you asked them.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As for most of the kingdoms of Men, I guess that's just what you said - the silver pennies, I am not aware of any other mention of currency elsewhere. We can only speculate if there was more or less unified currency (perhaps left from the Númenorean times), or if other kinds of people had different currencies of their own. It would make sense, in my opinion, if the more "primitive" nations of Men had simpler sort of barter-systems, somewhere using different things than money as the "currency" (as in, it used to be e.g. silk in some nations in the past in our world, and so on); and those who came in contact with the Dúnedain (so in time of LotR, the lands which used to be the provinces of Gondor and Arnor, including Hobbit-lands

Well, there is at least one other mention of coinage in LOTR: curiously enough it also occurs in Bree. Gandalf evidently gave a "gold piece" to Butturbur out of relief that Aragorn had found the Hobbits there.

The fact that gold and silver coins were used in Bree (and probably the Shire, too, since we have many mentions of "money" by the Hobbits) would seem to add weight to the idea that at least the Kingdom of Arnor might have once had a common currency. And in Bree and the Shire, where there was apparently no central government or authority, and thus no "government" workers, only currency trading or bartering would make the local economy workable. I'm inclined to think it was only currency, because of something Butturbur said.

'[Mr. Underhill's] welcome to go where he will, as long as he pays in the morning.'

FOTR At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

No trade or service was expected of Frodo, just payment. There'd been no talk of what service Frodo and his friends could provide, nor of anything they had to trade.
Additionally, I don't recall any reference to banks or counting houses in Bree or the Shire where currency exchanges could be done, and the Kingdom or Arnor had been gone for over a thousand years, so I would think the coins would have been simple metal discs, accepted everywhere the inhabitants of those areas were likely to go.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As for other races, and earlier times, I can imagine the Dwarves trading for gems and various metal ingots, of which they'd have really abundant amount. Gems and precious metals would be used also in "inter-racial trade", as it seems to be mentioned also in Sil and everywhere. It is worth mentioning that in the Hobbit, Thorin, when explaining the history of Erebor to Bilbo, mentions that the Dwarves under the Mountain used to trade their craft for food provided by the Men of Dale; and it is not clear whether they used money as a sort of means for it or if it was just a sort of barter-trade. Also, I don't know if the Dwarves would have had any need for having a currency among themselves.

The Dwarves who traveled through Eriador at least had some of the gold and silver coins to use in Bree and the Shire, I would think. Else they'd always be hauling around gems and possibly metal-crafted things to trade, and I'd think that would be pretty cumbersome to the traveler.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The fact that gold and silver coins were used in Bree (and probably the Shire, too, since we have many mentions of "money" by the Hobbits) would seem to add weight to the idea that at least the Kingdom of Arnor might have once had a common currency. And in Bree and the Shire, where there was apparently no central government or authority, and thus no "government" workers, only currency trading or bartering would make the local economy workable. I'm inclined to think it was only currency, because of something Butturbur said.
[...]
Additionally, I don't recall any reference to banks or counting houses in Bree or the Shire where currency exchanges could be done, and the Kingdom or Arnor had been gone for over a thousand years, so I would think the coins would have been simple metal discs, accepted everywhere the inhabitants of those areas were likely to go.

The currency systems of the Shire and Gondor were discussed last year in this thread (which also contains some links to older ones). It seems plausible to assume that the Hobbits inherited their monetary system from the North Kingdom of old, and that the currencies of Gondor and Arnor were more or less alike if not the same (possibly pre-dating the kingdoms in exile and originating with the Númenórean colonial empire, like Legate suggested).

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Dwarves who traveled through Eriador at least had some of the gold and silver coins to use in Bree and the Shire, I would think. Else they'd always be hauling around gems and possibly metal-crafted things to trade, and I'd think that would be pretty cumbersome to the traveler.

Probably yes. I also can't quite see the Dwarves returning home from their travels with caravans of cattle and wagons laden with grain - it seems more likely to me that they sold the products of their craft for coin which they used to buy food from Men who lived nearer their homes and have it delivered to them.

In general, I think the Dwarves were somewhat more preoccupied with notions of property and private ownership than the Elves - at least in their dealings with other peoples (see the quarrel about the Nauglamír back in the First Age). Among themselves, such issues may not have mattered quite as much, except perhaps between the different Houses (e.g. I could see the Longbeards of Moria trading mithril for gold and silver with their distant relatives); but I doubt they used any internal currency for that, in so far I'm with Legate here.

As for the Elves, I feel Legate has hit the nail on the head; and when we're talking about Aman, any idea of trade and barter seems quite out of question to me. (If you want evidence, the Silmarillion says the Noldor freely gave gems and jewels to the Teleri to do with as they pleased; and later, Fëanor in turn didn't ask Olwë 'How much for those ships', nor did he demand them as recompense for earlier gifts, but asked for permission to use them for old friendship's sake.)

[Puddleglum]

Just a couple of observations to add...

In Aman it is said of Aule:

The delight and pride of Aule is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in posession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work.

Since Aule was the greatest friend (among the Valar) of the Noldor, it seems reasonable to assume that they, at least, would tend to adopt the same attitude toward making and possessing. That is, they would take such delight in the making of things (rather than in possessing them) that giving to your friends and kin (and others) would be the norm - rather than attempting to amass wealth by barter (buy-low, sell-high).

In Middle Earth, in the Hobbit, another example of trading is described where Thranduil's Wood Elves received barrels of apples, goods and wine (some from the vineyards of Dorwinion, near the sea of Ruhn) came up the river and were trans-shipped by the Lakemen. I don't thnk it's said how they paid (in goods or money), but it seems plain they paid in some way.

Also, in Rivendell Gloin tells Frodo about the tolls charged by the Beornings - indicating yet another case of payment being made (goods or money is not specified) for a service or passage.

[Morthoron]

Tolkien did not do commerce very well; in fact, he merely ignored it unless it served a specific purpose to move the story along (the barrel trade with Laketown, for instance, where there is no mention of what the Elves could use in trade/barter/currency).

The Shire and Bree are even more of an anomaly. Considering the last King of Arthedain perished nearly 1000 years previously, it seems incredible that there would be any Dunedain coinage remaining from that time period. Likewise, the Shire had no trade south to Gondor, therefore it seems unlikely that the tharni and castar coins minted in Minas Tirith would have made their way up the Greenway in an amount necessary to be used as everyday coinage.

So, how were deeds and other legal transactions processed? Who paid for the postal service and bounders (as taxation was never mentioned)? No pawn shops or usury (an age-old practice in the real world), no banks -- but, amusingly, there were lawyers (Messrs Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes).

Much like commodes and outhouses, Tolkien simply did not go into detail; otherwise, he would need a many-paged treatise explaining trade, finance, numismatics and global economics. Considering the numerous problems with his personal finances, it is my opinion that Tolkien wanted to stay as far away as possible from the dread realities of finance, even in a fantasy.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien did not do commerce very well; in fact, he merely ignored it unless it served a specific purpose to move the story along...

So, how were deeds and other legal transactions processed?

I think you're right about such matters mostly being ignored and, for the purposes of his stories, I think he made a good decision. He was more interested, anyway (I think) in the more social aspects of how people interrelated and how they thought - and the effect their thinking had on their actions and deeds.

As regards legal matters, there was one other incident I recall where Otho demands to see Bilbo's will making Frodo Bilbo's heir (Otho would have otherwise inherited).

It was, unfortunately, very clear and correct (according to the legal customs of hobbits, which demand among other things seven signatures of witnesses in red ink).

In legal matters, the hobbits in the Shire seemed to be organized in a clan or family structure with each main family having a head. Most likely, justice was mostly handled within the family by the family/clan heads. So a formal court system (with lawyers handling prosecution, defense, etc before judges) would not have been needed or even thought of.

Interesting side note (from one of Tolkien's writings which source I would have to look for), Otho was head of the Sackville family and was hoping to gain the unusual distinction of becoming titular head of TWO families at the same time (if he had remained Bilbo's heir). Thus his wrath at being foiled by Bilbo's will was due to more than simply failing to get Bilbo's (supposed) wealth.

[skip spence]

I think it can be assumed that money of some sort (presumably in the form of coins as a general rule) was in common usage among all the peoples in the North Western Middle Earth, with the possible exception of Elves (though I think that they too may have used money; some of them certainly demonstrate possessiveness)

A few interesting instances of trade/transactions/money that popped into my head:

*Bilbo is hired as a professional thief to go along with the dwarves in The Hobbit. They sign a business contract and both parties seem to regard this as a perfectly normal proceeding.

*The S-B:s buy Bag End and there is no indication that Frodo receives any goods or services in return. But how is he paid? With a sack of gold? And if so, where does he stash it and his pre-existing funds away when he leaves on his journey? Obviously (I think) he doesn't bring all his wealth with him...

*Here's a curious one: during the Orc wars one of the Dwarves (I forget who) goes to Moria and is heckled at the Gate by the Orcs who throw spare change at his feet and call him a beggar. So Orcs also have money and make business, one might presume...

*Also, isn't it mentioned in LotR that Sauron tries to buy black stallions from the Rohrrim for a high price? What does he offer in return, you think?

*And when the Black Rider comes to the Shire he offers to pay for good information regarding Mr. Baggins, does he not?

[Bêthberry]

I suspect that the absence of many direct, specific discussions or references to money in Middle-earth arises from the fact that there were no philological quandries concering the words for coins.

Thus, Tolkien didn't have to engage in any "backformation" to create "asterisk"words for money--as Shippey has explained Tolkien's process in The Road to Middle-earth and Author of the Century .

Therefore, it just didn't interest him.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

*Here's a curious one: during the Orc wars one of the Dwarves (I forget who) goes to Moria and is heckled at the Gate by the Orcs who throw spare change at his feet and call him a beggar. So Orcs also have money and make business, one might presume...

As a sort of general remark, I did not mention it in my earlier elaboration, because I considered it self-evident, but it seems clear to me that the more the dominion of Men was coming, the more the money was used also among other nations: simply this "invention" of Men (as I believe it is, for reasons visible above) was used so widely and the Men were everywhere, so it basically became convenient to trade with the help of money (with the exception of the Elves, who I think would have stayed with their original way of trade). However, among themselves, and in some isolated communities or in the case of some pacts (Men of Dale-Dwarves of Erebor? Some Easterlings-Sauron?), I can see the barter system still working. It was normal in the Middle Ages e.g. for vassals to give certain sums, like tribute, in, say, horses. I can imagine some of the Easterlings giving tribute to Sauron in such way, for example.

And, of course, as for the use of money by Sauron, I have no doubt that it was just a wonderful means to corrupt Men, so I am sure that at least in the exterior relations, he would've started using it very soon. After all, money is the root of all evil, right?

The example with the Black Rider is a very good show of that.

*And when the Black Rider comes to the Shire he offers to pay for good information regarding Mr. Baggins, does he not?

If I recall correctly, Khamul says "I will come back and bring gold". I believe that this is supposed to mean gold as in money, not some sort of golden ingots. I also have no doubt that something like that would be expected to mean a lot for a simple farmer like Maggot was. One interesting thing I would like to note, it seems to me that Khamul acts a bit "alienly" in this way, though, basically in the same way as I would assume some, indeed, alien from space would act if it came to Earth, about which he had learned only from books, and tried to bribe some local people. Of course, it has to do with lots of things: Khamul was in a foreign land and totally alien (indeed) society, he tried to use the method which Sauron's agents normally use for the corrupt Men for the hobbits, he also had not been doing such things very often, probably; on top of that, he was a wraith, who knows how much of empathy for human feelings, including greed, was left in him; and I wonder if even during his life, Khamul did not live in still a "pre-monetary" society, especially being an Easterling and all - so the whole concept just would not be part of his "cultural background"...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

After all, money is the root of all evil, right?

Not quite.

The full quotation from I Timothy 6:10 is the love of money is the root of all evil.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

After all, money is the root of all evil, right?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Not quite.
The full quotation from I Timothy 6:10 is the love of money is the root of all evil.

The more accurate translation is the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Thus

• It's the "love of" (or desire for) money, not the money itself.
• It's "A" root - as in, "one of several roots", not the "only" root.
• It's a root of many different kinds of evil (such as embezzlement, theft, cheating, illicit HGH/steroid use, tax evasion, burglary, etc). Not that all evil in the world comes from this one root.

Not that this impacts the main argument in any way, of course.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Not quite.

The full quotation from I Timothy 6:10 is the love of money is the root of all evil.

Ha! Why did I never think of that? Shows how one's brain just does not connect things if it thinks they are unrelated... I always thought that it is some random English (and only English) proverb...

[Rumil]

Hi all,

nice find of orcish small-change skip!

I don't think we should be unduly worried about the thought that the coinage of North-Western Middle Earth was based on a Dunedain system of a thousand years before. An old-money penny was 'd' for denarii after all, which goes back to the Romans.

And the actual coins surviving isn't the key thing, the key thing was the idea of the coin, - a copper, a silver penny, or a gold castar. As long as they were precious metal of about the right size and weight, then anything was probably acceptable. For example the Ancient Britons struck coins based on Alexander the Great's designs, but these were weirdly stylized rough copies of the originals.

I imagine the Dwarves struck coinage, probably with a hammer-and anvil design or similar, but in the same size as the old Numenorean coins, as that was what everyone was used to.

Wonder if Sauron struck his own coins? What would be the reaction if you tried to buy a pony in Bree with Sauronic pennies?? Presumably shady characters might offer to melt them down and recast in more acceptable form, for a price!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Wonder if Sauron struck his own coins? What would be the reaction if you tried to buy a pony in Bree with Sauronic pennies?? Presumably shady characters might offer to melt them down and recast in more acceptable form, for a price!

Sauron's medium of exchange was the Eyero, I guess.

Really though, I doubt Sauron had need of his own coinage. I see Mordor as being even more of an example of Communism than the Elves. Think of it, the people there (mainly talking of the Orcs) don't even have names as far as the higher-ups are concerned; their assigned numbers seemed to be more important. The Mordor citizenry are told what to do and where to live. A free-market economy seems unnecessary and against the nature of a Sauronian society. What the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were up to was a different story.
When Khamûl told Farmer Maggot he'd bring "gold", I've always pictured him as meaning bullion. Notice he doesn't tell Maggot he'll give him "money". Pedantic, I know, but there you are.

[Galadriel55]

I think that Khamul promised Maggot gold, he meant gold coins, that being the highest coin type in value. As little as the Nazguls know about the Shire, they should know what to scare/tempt the hobbits with; they aren't that stupid. A chunk of gold would be as useful to Maggot as a sausage to a vegeterian.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that Khamul promised Maggot gold, he meant gold coins, that being the highest coin type in value. As little as the Nazguls know about the Shire, they should know what to scare/tempt the hobbits with; they aren't that stupid. A chunk of gold would be as useful to Maggot as a sausage to a vegeterian.

Why? Gold is gold. A coin as a coin is only a representative object as concerns its issuer, usually a government. The Hobbits weren't bound to any particular type of coinage, they only used coins because they were convenient. I don't think Maggot would have turned down a gold bar. I wouldn't!

[Galadriel55]

You wouldn't, and neither would I, but neither of us is Maggot. What use would he see in a bar of gold? It's like the Gaffer said, "cabbages and potatoes are better". They're both more down-to-earth-ish, and perhaps more realistic when it comes to the true value of things, not the value that others give them. What could you do with gold? It's an equivalent of money, but what else? Jewelry's nice, I suppose, but its not something that we really need that much. Yes, I said that gold=money, but only because people gave it this value. In reality, it is not as useful as other metals. Maggot is the kind of person that can see beyond the yellow shiny stuff. What would he do with that bar of gold? Fertilize his mushrooms with it?
He could use a few coins, though, since they are a convinient way to trade, as you said. He could get some real fertilizer with those! Gold bars aren't very convenient to trade with, unless you want a dozen wagons of manure at once...

When Legolas and Gimli talk about the caves of Aglarond, they say something about giving gold. Do you think that they meant oney or golden bars or either? Or simply the value of gold in any material/way of payment?

PS: if Maggot would not accept gold in return for information about his..."friend", he probably wouldn't have accepted anything, so I don't blae Khamul for not bribing properly.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Why? Gold is gold. A coin as a coin is only a representative object as concerns its issuer, usually a government. The Hobbits weren't bound to any particular type of coinage, they only used coins because they were convenient. I don't think Maggot would have turned down a gold bar. I wouldn't!

Well, to put it in perspective, Butterbur offered Merry 30 silver pennies in compensation for his lost ponies. If a gold coin is of value about, say, 20 silver pennies (it may have been more), then the value of a gold coin is the value of several modes of transportation - in our society maybe that is several hundred or thousand dollars in equivalent value.

So, if the Nazgul pays with a gold ingot (enough to make several hundred or more gold coins), what is Maggot going to do with it? Walk into the nearest pub, buy a beer (for a few coppers) and ask for change ?!?!?!? He can't do much of ANYTHING with it until he finds someone with enough loose change to convert it - and with a desire to have their very own gold ingot (which THEY can't do much with).

Maybe Gondor would have a banking system able to handle/convert it. I expect the Dwarves could have converted it. But I don't see that the Shire was set up to convert something of that value.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, I'm with G55 and Puddleglum about this one - Khamul's words really sound like the basic way in which the villains of old in 19th-century books offer a bribe. The point is that Khamul is not saying "I will give you 500 gold pieces if you tell me about Baggins", but he is simply saying "gold", leaving it open for Maggot to say the actual price. It is like "here, I am giving you an offer, and you can see for yourself how generous I am". Of course, Khamul's only mistake was indeed that he bumped into a rather incorruptible person, and the whole race, for that matter...

On the other hand, I agree with Inzil about the Mordor part - I don't think that Sauron would have any reason to use currency "inside" Mordor, and no reason to make his own coins. Nobody will buy anything from anybody inside Mordor, you either have slaves, or you are a boss, but you get everything you ought for your work by the system which divides stuff among people according to Sauron's, and only his, plans. It's a classic centrally controlled society, if you can even call it a society in the proper sense.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

On the other hand, I agree with Inzil about the Mordor part - I don't think that Sauron would have any reason to use currency "inside" Mordor, and no reason to make his own coins. Nobody will buy anything from anybody inside Mordor, you either have slaves, or you are a boss, but you get everything you ought for your work by the system which divides stuff among people according to Sauron's, and only his, plans. It's a classic centrally controlled society, if you can even call it a society in the proper sense.

I have heard dragons worked for union scale.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I have heard dragons worked for union scale.

Oh, Morth...

For myself, I always figured that there was some kind of "currency" among all the different races of ME, not a unified system, but one that worked among themselves and those with which they did any kind of trade. That Tolkien gave no details of these systems is no surprise to me, since he had an obvious emphasis on culture rather than commerce. But there is plenty of evidence that such systems existed, in the mentions of things like coins, payment, etc. I can't see Sauron feeling any need to have a currency of his own; he didn't pay his slaves, and for things like the bribes offered to Maggot, he probably had caches (no doubt stolen) of the various things needed to do business in the regions where he wanted to "do business."

In Aman, since the three groups of Elves have realms with kings, they probably have established some way of doing trade among themselves based on whatever means they might have established prior to the Great Journey. Aman may be the Blessed Realm, but it is not a perfect paradise, nor are the Elves themselves a perfect people. But that's my personal take on things.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

The more accurate translation is the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.

an even more accurate translation would be love of riches, not necessarily money.

[Galadriel]

I just saw something very interesting in Unfinishes Tales, of the Druedain: "...the Atani had a knowledge of metals and smith-craft before they came to Beleriand, for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly.

So. There was a sort of monetary system perhaps, even at that time with the Edain...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I just saw something very interesting in Unfinishes Tales, of the Druedain: "...the Atani had a knowledge of metals and smith-craft before they came to Beleriand, for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly.

So. There was a sort of monetary system perhaps, even at that time with the Edain...

Well, "costly" does not have to mean price in coins. Especially in this context of early times, it simply means that they were rare. Imagine some ancient cultures of our Earth in their beginnings, the weapons there were costly too, when there still was not anything like money. It simply meant that you had to give twenty cows or two horses for a sword (and a bad one, at that).

It does not really make sense for the Edain to use any monetary system before they came to Beleriand, what for, expecially if they were just tribal, migrating people (and basically all in one place - who would they trade with)?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, "costly" does not have to mean price in coins. Especially in this context of early times, it simply means that they were rare. Imagine some ancient cultures of our Earth in their beginnings, the weapons there were costly too, when there still was not anything like money. It simply meant that you had to give twenty cows or two horses for a sword (and a bad one, at that).

It does not really make sense for the Edain to use any monetary system before they came to Beleriand, what for, expecially if they were just tribal, migrating people (and basically all in one place - who would they trade with)?

True. But that's just my interpretation, though your answer is more realistic. I just like to think there was some kind of exchange system that went beyond a simple barter system. You're right, they probably traded in terms of cloth and cows, but I think there might have been a monetary system lurking around somewhere...