The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-29-2002, 06:16 PM   #1
Manardariel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 817
Manardariel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting about the Valar&Iluvatar

When I read the begining of the Sil I was kind of confused about the whole Valar/Iluvatar thing.The first impression you get is: "Ok- Iluvatar is god. He created the earth with all its beings." And then you go wait... the Valar are gods too. They helped Iluvatar create the earth. It´s kinda like in Greece, every Valar has its one "subject", where he/she belongs and what he/she has to do. But then you go wait again. Because if the Valar are the gods and Manwe is their king(sort of like Zeus) then who is Iluvatar- the Over-overgod? And so, is the whole thing monoteistic,with only one god, (Iluvatar) or polytheistic, with all of these gods (Valar)?Or is it a combination? Or....??

I´ve read neither the HoME, nor the leters, so I´m pretty clueless... could someone help me out???

[ December 29, 2002: Message edited by: Manardariel ]
__________________
Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)|FanFicDream City
Manardariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2002, 06:55 PM   #2
Manwe Sulimo
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor
Posts: 553
Manwe Sulimo has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Manwe Sulimo
Sting

I tend to think of it more in a monothiestic tone, like Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Eru is God, while the Valar are the archangels and the Maiar are just angels. Valinor is Heavan, Mandos is sorta St. Peter....you get the idea. I hope.
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."
Manwe Sulimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2002, 08:26 PM   #3
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 935
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

Interestingly, the Bible only speaks of one Archangel -- hence arch-, meaning 'chief' or 'principal'. There are different classes of angels -- cherubs, seraphs -- but only one Archangel.
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2002, 08:40 PM   #4
Manwe Sulimo
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor
Posts: 553
Manwe Sulimo has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Manwe Sulimo
Sting

Well, I'm not Christian and haven't gotten around to reading the Bible yet, but weren't there more than one, like Gabriel and Michael?
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."
Manwe Sulimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 01:55 AM   #5
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 935
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

Michael is the Archangel, yes, but not Gabriel.
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 03:45 AM   #6
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 963
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Wow, dude, your posts get shorter and shorter. There were four Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael. The Bible isn't the only source of knowledge on the Hebrew or Christian religions. Much of what we know today comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other documents found around Qumran at various times.

Okay, back to the Tolkien question if that's alright... I think that one of the greatest things about Middle-Earth's system is that it could fit in with so many of our modern world's religions. While it does have one god above all, it's also got a pantheon like the Greeks and many other peoples had, even down to tiny little minor deities (Bombadil? Goldberry?) for specific areas. And there's even reincarnation - Durin, Glorfindel. There's also an age long past where the people of earth (okay, only the Elves) actually lived with the gods. Fantastic.
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.
doug*platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 09:19 AM   #7
mark12_30
Stormdancer of Doom
 
mark12_30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars
Posts: 4,407
mark12_30 has been trapped in the Barrow!
Send a message via AIM to mark12_30 Send a message via Yahoo to mark12_30
Sting

I haven't got the letters here with me, but the final word should really belong to Tolkien himself, and he did discuss the Valar issue. I'll try and dig it up later, unless somebody else beats me to it; but I'd encourage those that are seriously intrigued by Tolkien to get a copy of his Letters to have on hand. They are superb reference material.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.
mark12_30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 11:14 AM   #8
Manardariel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 817
Manardariel has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

Where can I get the letters? Can you buy them or something?
__________________
Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)|FanFicDream City
Manardariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 12:22 PM   #9
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 935
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

Quote:
Wow, dude, your posts get shorter and shorter.
I've made my share of lengthy posts. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:
There were four Archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael.
Source, please.

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 12:25 PM   #10
LePetitChoux
Vegetable of Doom
 
LePetitChoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 721
LePetitChoux has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to LePetitChoux
Thumbs up

I find it is more like Hinduism-there is one God (Brahman) but many deities. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
je suis une bonne odeur
LePetitChoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 12:31 PM   #11
piosenniel
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
 
piosenniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,816
piosenniel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Obloquy:

The Catholic Church recognizes three Archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, who are mentioned in the canonical scripture.

In the apocryphal writings and other non-canon sources are mentioned several other names of Archangels.

Here is a link for the specific references:

Archangel

[ December 30, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]
__________________
Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
piosenniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2002, 01:05 PM   #12
Manwe Sulimo
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor
Posts: 553
Manwe Sulimo has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Manwe Sulimo
Sting

Well, in Hinduism there is Brahma (the Creator), Shiva (the Destroyer), and Vishnu (the Renewer/Preserver?) who are the three main deities, who together are called Brahman. Below them are upwards of thiry thousand minor deites, the gods of specific families and things. (Or was it only three thousand? I can never remember.) It's not really like Tolkien's hierarchy, with the one over-god, since Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu are of equal power and duties to the world.
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."
Manwe Sulimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2002, 12:38 AM   #13
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 935
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

Quote:
The Catholic Church recognizes three Archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, who are mentioned in the canonical scripture.
The Catholic Church's doctrine is based around tradition more than scripture. Neither Gabriel or Raphael are ever given the title of 'archangel' in scripture, and Raphael only appears in the book of Tobias, which is considered deuterocanonical. From the source you cited:
Quote:
The name "Archangel" is given only to Saint Michael, even though sacred tradition and the liturgy of the Church attribute the same title to Saint Gabriel and Saint Raphael...
As I said, there is only one Archangel, and that is why he is called the Archangel.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2002, 12:52 AM   #14
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,803
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
Pipe

We're obviously straying from the topic at hand, oblo, but I think it's clear the number of archangels is determined by each Christian in accordance to one's specific religion. You can tell me that there was only one, but as I was baptized Orthodox, I will disagree, as will our Catholic friends. And Tolkien was Catholic, in case anyone forgot. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2002, 08:25 AM   #15
Manwe Sulimo
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor
Posts: 553
Manwe Sulimo has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Manwe Sulimo
Sting

And in any case, why would there be a "choir" of archangels?
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."
Manwe Sulimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:43 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.