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Old 07-20-2000, 01:34 PM   #1
Samwisethehobbit
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Ring New Topic= Ecthelion: Man, or Elf?

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All right, I want to introduce a question: Ecthelion, the awesome elf who slew Gothmog, and died in the deed, or the father of Denethor in LOTR? I know there is the same question about Glorfindel, about returning from the dead in a new body granted by Mandos, but an elf returning from the dead as a man? Reply with thy feelings on the subject.

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Old 07-20-2000, 02:01 PM   #2
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Ecthelion: Man, or Elf?

I'm pretty sure that this is just an instance of two people having the same name and I imagine that the latter was merely named for the former.

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Old 07-20-2000, 02:16 PM   #3
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

You think so? Well, I don't know. Ok, I'll start another topic now.
What do you think about the Secret Fire of Anor? Remember the Moria part in Fellowship where Gandalf says that he was the wielder of the Secret Fire of Anor? What's the Secret Fire, and where's Anor? Does it have something to do with his ring, Narya?

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Old 07-20-2000, 02:24 PM   #4
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

See page 17 of the Silmarillion. The Istari were mysteriously bound to uphold the secret fire. In what sense Narya might be understood to partake of the mystery of Ea, I cannot say.

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Old 07-20-2000, 03:06 PM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

OK, I understand now.

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Old 07-21-2000, 12:46 AM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

Then you are a better hobbit than I. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 07-21-2000, 01:20 PM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

I always though that the Secret Fire and the Flame Imperishable were one in the same.

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Old 07-21-2000, 05:14 PM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

The Secret Fire was sent to burn in the center of th Earth, and Anor is the Sun (Minas Anor, the Tower of the (Rising) Sun). Perhaps the Sun is named after the Secret Fire.

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Old 07-21-2000, 11:09 PM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

At various points in LotR and the Silma, JRRT uses the epithets &quot;secret fire,&quot; &quot;flame of Anor,&quot; &quot;flame imperishable,&quot; &quot;heart of the world,&quot; etc., all as equivalent. I suppose that some of these epithets are better understood metaphorically or as mystical correspondences rather than as literal ones, for Burrahobbit is certainly right that Anor is literally the sun and cannot be at the center of the world. I think of it like the mystery of the Eucharist. Is the body of Christ literally in every sacramental wafer? Yes, but (only!) miraculously. But some of you may prefer the Zwinglian idea that the name is repeated memorially.

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Old 07-22-2000, 06:04 AM   #10
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

I think of the Flame Imperishable as the 'spark of life'.

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Old 07-23-2000, 07:09 AM   #11
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

Chief Wraith may have it. Thus the flame could be both [in essence ] the center/heart of the earth and the sun.


</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/25/00 8:18:34 pm
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Old 07-23-2000, 07:13 AM   #12
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

So much for my token ecumenical gesture.

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Old 07-23-2000, 07:22 AM   #13
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

(This message was left blank)

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/25/00 8:19:31 pm
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Old 07-24-2000, 02:46 AM   #14
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor

Your last post has been troubling me for about one day now. I would appreciate if you would explain what you meant by it because I would prefer not to misconstrue you.
g.

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Old 07-24-2000, 07:23 AM   #15
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor-ecumenism

Please forgive me I prob. crossed theline of what anyone else on this page would wish to dialog about[anti-ecumenism ] .
I again apologize for troubling you and now all of us w/ such a theological footnote.
that clears it up I hope -otherwise maybe we can Email in pri . re: the matter.


</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/25/00 8:22:31 pm
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Old 07-24-2000, 04:34 PM   #16
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor-ecumenism

Thank you for your clarification. The leap from Zwingli and what you referred to as &quot;Protestant Eucharistology&quot; to pagans or other anti-Trinitarians strikes me as unjustified and prejudicial in the extreme. Since I was attempting to contrast divergent Eucharistic interpretations which could as easily be characterized as Lutheran contra Zwinglian as it could be characterized as Catholic contra Zwinglian your comprehensive vituperation seems (at the very least) unfair.
If you opt to live in a world of orthodoxy and heterodoxy, it seems the better part of wisdom to figure out which tenets of the faith are essential and which are adiaphora. The Roman tent, itself, has always proved to have room for many more widely divergent theologies than have the (big O) Orthodox churches or many of the Protestant churches, and I think wisely.
I also believe that you will find that there are some pagans (or neo-pagans, I'm not sure quite how -- or whether -- they identify themselves) participating on this board. Since the council that you are lambasting defines itself as a Council of Churches -- in the plural -- to suggest that pagans have no place in their conversations might seem offensive to them. It does to me although I am a member of the Orthodox Church (big O). It doesn't seem to me that conciliar projects make sense if any orthodox line is allowed to exclude other participants on the basis of their heterodoxy. A group which seeks that kind authority strikes me as schismatic rather than as catholic (small c).

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Old 07-24-2000, 07:55 PM   #17
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor-ecumenism

With all due respect gentlemen, too much blood has been spilled in debates of this sort. Please keep your swords in their sheaths and get back on topic. Besides, I confess I have little idea about what you're talking about anyway.

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Old 07-25-2000, 06:27 PM   #18
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: New Topic= Secret fire of Anor-ecumenism

Mithadan, thanks for thecalming words.Galpsi , I have, I hope removed any thing troubling from the thread.
maybe if there's anything left to iron out in mind or heart you could email me at :
theryans@best.com
sincerely

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Old 12-28-2002, 02:36 AM   #19
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Back to the original question (there's a novel idea!), the Men of Minas Tirith, or at least the ruling families, made a habit of naming their children after great Elves. Denethor, Ecthelion, Denethor II, there's a pretty substantial list. They looked up to the Elves. In the same way you still get people named John or Jesus 2000 years after the originals have passed on, and none of them are considered to be rebirths of them (at least in a literal sense). One of the many details that Tolkien employed to make his world seem as real as possible.
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