THE THEME OF LOTR - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 04-24-2002, 06:33 PM

I have a report on my favorite book i have to do. Naturally I chose LotR. To me the theme is this; Little people, not especially stong or inportant (Frodo), can be most inportant.

Does anyone see a different theme?

Beren87 · 04-24-2002, 06:39 PM

I see quite a few

such as triump of love
That of companionship (Sam and Frodo)
Destruction of Nature (Sauron),
and of course the classic good vs. evil

Birdland · 04-24-2002, 10:45 PM

I think your first instinct is a good one, Gimli. Look at the words of Elrond: "This is the hour of the Shire-Folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it?" (The Fellowship of the Rings, "The Council of Elrond", page 284, second paragraph; in case you need a footnote. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

This is a powerful message; that the least among us can do the most. And bears repeating, over and over, throughout history. There are many excellent themes in LoTR, but this is the most important one.

Neferchoirwen · 04-25-2002, 05:27 AM

I am very fascinated with the triumph of teh underdog coupled by a change in the paradigm of the way the world works or thinks.

I'd love to go on and on about that, but I've got to go...

ElanorGamgee · 04-25-2002, 08:13 AM

I think that one of the themes is good triumphing over evil, even against impossible odds. There are so many times when evil has a huge advantage but is still defeated. For example, Éowyn, with Pippin's help, defeats the Witch King. Pippin makes a foolish mistake in Moria, and although it seems that evil triumphs when Gandalf falls, he returns later, stronger than ever. Frodo and Sam face all the horrors of Mordor, including Shelob, and still manage to get the Ring to Mt.Doom. Frodo claims the Ring as his own, but it is still destroyed one of the characters who wants it the most.

Orodhromeus · 04-25-2002, 11:01 AM

I see a more political meaning in some sense (no allegory though!): Memory of the past must not be forgotten, even when times are changing.

The fading of the elves, the coming Dominion of Man, the loss of the Entwives (and one could argue the passing of Frodo, see the "Did Frodo complete his quest?" thread I think) are all variations on the same theme: the glorious past fades away and something new comes into play. The return of the king of the days past (Aragorn) and the fact that those who know history are considered as wise in M-E underline the idea that rememberance is important. Anyone must get the feeling of loss when reading, say, the Grey Havens. What makes it political is that it's a quite conservative message (in the literate sense, not political party sense) - giving respect to the old, not to forget the ancient wisdom.

I'm perfectly certain nobody understood what my point is - I'll have to think about how to express my confused mind better. I'm lame at expressing feelings & ideas, I'm better at materialist descriptions!

Birdland · 04-25-2002, 11:51 AM

I think you summed it up well Oro. It comes down to the old adage: "Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them".

It's a double-edged sword though. If we remember the past only to avenge the honor of long-dead ancestors, bringing those old mistakes to light deliberately, and repeating them willfully, then we wind up with a world very like the one we're living in now. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 04-25-2002, 02:00 PM

I think that you all have very good points. I think that the main theme is that little guys can do big things to (yes, from Vegetales) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] If you chose that theme, you can also look at the story of David and Galith (in the Bible). That could be where tolkien got his idea from.

Jessica Jade · 04-25-2002, 02:06 PM

That is an excellent choice for a theme, Gimli Son of Gloin. I can think of many others, but yours is certainly one that is positively garrulous!

There are other factors to consider when writing about your theme. You can also include other themes, since they are all interwoven. Good and Evil always comes into play. One of the most important things Tolkien implicates is that evil cannot prevail. Compassion, charity, and companionship are more powerful than, and in the end will defeat, evil and morbidity.
This theme is perfectly exemplified by Frodo's resilience to the evil of the Ring. He binds himself not to the Ring's power (which is inherently evil) but to other things: his forbearance toward Gollum, and his love for Sam. He finds himself in this dependence, based on humility, purity, and goodness...and that dependence saved him from becoming ensnared by the Ring as so many others had. The fact that frodo chooses humility over the ever-seductive power (and ultimately evil) prove that Indeed, evil cannot prevail.

A really good quote for your theme from The Council of Elrond:
"Yet such is oft the deeds that turn the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are looking elsewhere."

You can also write about why powerful people, like Elrond Gandalf, and Galadriel, couldn't possess the ring. Their very prowess and wisdom was what made them dangerous and inappropriate for such an important periolous task. Also, Frodo's innocent strength was what made him the only person fit for the task--there certainly might have been others who would have willingly taken up the responsibility, but no one to whom it would have meant as much.

Ok, i think i've rambled on long enough. Good luck on your report and i hope you enjoy writing it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Jessica Jade · 04-25-2002, 02:12 PM

More themes of LOTR!

Here are some more themes, if you choose to write about them! At least, they are good food for thought [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The fallen nature of man, who fights with himself instead of fighting the true enemy; the inevitable fading of beautiful things and the disappearance of unspoilt nature; the evil results that come from using evil means, even with good intentions; and the saving power of courage, humility and simplicity of heart, as personified in the hobbits. By weaving these elements into a well-told story, Tolkien does more than entertain; he throws into relief important ideas that can become obscured or forgotten in the real world.

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 04-25-2002, 09:37 PM

Yeesh! I think I need to read more deeply [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]! I had thought about a couple of these themes, like friendship, but I didn't hardly think of all those! Maybe it's because I only read LotR once. I thank each and every one of you for you amazing analasysises (is that how you spell it??) of this great work of litrature (espeacialy Oro). [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Jessica Jade · 04-25-2002, 11:47 PM

Orodhromeus - I completely felt that huge sense of loss at The Grey Havens. I cried so much when i read that chapter. Espeicially the very end. I reread that section over and over and i get teary every time. There IS such a big sense of loss there and right now for me it's hard to explain in words how it makes me feel and why it's such a powerful ending. Ack, this is a little off topic for this thread. Sorry!

I've only read LOTR in its entirety once as well. I need to reread it this summer because there are so many things i've missed or forgotten! The beauty of Tolkien is that you can reread a passage you've just read and find about 10 things you didn't notice before. I love it.

Mr. Frodo · 04-26-2002, 12:17 AM

Everyone here has very good points, Iespecially liked Jessica Jade's point about how Frodo was the only one who really could do it because he was innocent. For a good theme, you could look at her signature. Frodo is willing to sacrifice everything and go into this danger to save these people.
The characters told them to us so many times and they go together perfectly throughout the books. Galadriel said that even the smallest person can make a difference, Gandalf warned us not to be to quick to give out judgement, and Sam showed use that the loyalty of a true friend is stronger than any blade. Each character teaches us something new or stops to remind us of something we've forgotten. These books are about loyalty, courage, and love, because that is what made these people real.
I hope this helps with your report, I just finished writing one about the Fellowship of the Ring, too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I cried so much at the end of ROTK, too. It was just so unfair that the people who deserved the happily ever after the most aren't allowed to have it. Frodo was supposed to stay at Bag-End and get tricked by Sam into watching his kids on Friday nights, but Frodo wouldn't mind because he would spoil them. Frodo wasn't supposed to get sick. It just wasn't fair, but many who live deserve death, many who die deserve life and the world isn't fair, right?
I guess I've babbled long enough, bye!

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 05-16-2002, 07:33 PM

Well, I wrote my report. I got an A! (no plus [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) And what's more, the teacher wrote a note on how she especially liked the theme part, and she said that rasied my grade from a B to an A because it was written so well and I read the book very deeply [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Thanks everyone!

Baran · 05-18-2002, 02:28 AM

Now that's a happy ending [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

greyhavener · 05-18-2002, 12:10 PM

I think Mr. Frodo is onto something examining Sam's character in the context of your theme of small people under big circumstances. Sam wasn't Gandalf's choice, he got involved sort of by accident. He's not particularly smart, not particularly agile, not much of a fighter. He cooks. But Sam's unwavering loyalty to Frodo and his simple understanding or what's right and what's wrong leads him into Mordor. He takes on a quest for which he hasn't been "chosen". He bears the ring that isn't his to bear. Sam may not be fully cognizant of the importance of the ring's destruction, but knowing that it is evil and has damaged Frodo is enough. He opens his heart to be a channel of healing and help for Frodo as he unleashes a "prayer of power" for lack of a better term in Elvish, a language he doesn't understand. Sam sees himself always as secondary in importance yet willingly and wholeheartedly participates in the quest. Sam accepts his own powerlessness over the situation saying "what a story we are in". Sam's paticipation is key to getting the ring to the Mount Doom, yet he always participates with a servant's heart. In the end he is the one who receives honor. In a way it's Sam's story: he gets the girl, becomes the mayor, and eventually takes his place in the West with the other ringbearers

greyhavener · 05-18-2002, 12:11 PM

Oh, and Gimli Son of Gloin - congratulations on your grade...you rock!

04-24-2002, 06:33 PM	#1
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	THE THEME OF LOTR I have a report on my favorite book i have to do. Naturally I chose LotR. To me the theme is this; Little people, not especially stong or inportant (Frodo), can be most inportant. Does anyone see a different theme? __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

04-25-2002, 05:27 AM	#4
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 513	I am very fascinated with the triumph of teh underdog coupled by a change in the paradigm of the way the world works or thinks. I'd love to go on and on about that, but I've got to go... __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

04-25-2002, 08:13 AM	#5
ElanorGamgee Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 314	I think that one of the themes is good triumphing over evil, even against impossible odds. There are so many times when evil has a huge advantage but is still defeated. For example, Éowyn, with Pippin's help, defeats the Witch King. Pippin makes a foolish mistake in Moria, and although it seems that evil triumphs when Gandalf falls, he returns later, stronger than ever. Frodo and Sam face all the horrors of Mordor, including Shelob, and still manage to get the Ring to Mt.Doom. Frodo claims the Ring as his own, but it is still destroyed one of the characters who wants it the most. __________________ Soli Deo Gloria

04-25-2002, 02:00 PM	#8
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I think that you all have very good points. I think that the main theme is that little guys can do big things to (yes, from Vegetales) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] If you chose that theme, you can also look at the story of David and Galith (in the Bible). That could be where tolkien got his idea from. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

04-25-2002, 02:06 PM	#9
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	That is an excellent choice for a theme, Gimli Son of Gloin. I can think of many others, but yours is certainly one that is positively garrulous! There are other factors to consider when writing about your theme. You can also include other themes, since they are all interwoven. Good and Evil always comes into play. One of the most important things Tolkien implicates is that evil cannot prevail. Compassion, charity, and companionship are more powerful than, and in the end will defeat, evil and morbidity. This theme is perfectly exemplified by Frodo's resilience to the evil of the Ring. He binds himself not to the Ring's power (which is inherently evil) but to other things: his forbearance toward Gollum, and his love for Sam. He finds himself in this dependence, based on humility, purity, and goodness...and that dependence saved him from becoming ensnared by the Ring as so many others had. The fact that frodo chooses humility over the ever-seductive power (and ultimately evil) prove that Indeed, evil cannot prevail. A really good quote for your theme from The Council of Elrond: "Yet such is oft the deeds that turn the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are looking elsewhere." You can also write about why powerful people, like Elrond Gandalf, and Galadriel, couldn't possess the ring. Their very prowess and wisdom was what made them dangerous and inappropriate for such an important periolous task. Also, Frodo's innocent strength was what made him the only person fit for the task--there certainly might have been others who would have willingly taken up the responsibility, but no one to whom it would have meant as much. Ok, i think i've rambled on long enough. Good luck on your report and i hope you enjoy writing it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

04-24-2002, 06:39 PM	#2
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,266	I see quite a few such as triump of love That of companionship (Sam and Frodo) Destruction of Nature (Sauron), and of course the classic good vs. evil

04-24-2002, 10:45 PM	#3
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	I think your first instinct is a good one, Gimli. Look at the words of Elrond: "This is the hour of the Shire-Folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it?" (The Fellowship of the Rings, "The Council of Elrond", page 284, second paragraph; in case you need a footnote. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) This is a powerful message; that the least among us can do the most. And bears repeating, over and over, throughout history. There are many excellent themes in LoTR, but this is the most important one.

04-25-2002, 11:01 AM	#6
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	I see a more political meaning in some sense (no allegory though!): Memory of the past must not be forgotten, even when times are changing. The fading of the elves, the coming Dominion of Man, the loss of the Entwives (and one could argue the passing of Frodo, see the "Did Frodo complete his quest?" thread I think) are all variations on the same theme: the glorious past fades away and something new comes into play. The return of the king of the days past (Aragorn) and the fact that those who know history are considered as wise in M-E underline the idea that rememberance is important. Anyone must get the feeling of loss when reading, say, the Grey Havens. What makes it political is that it's a quite conservative message (in the literate sense, not political party sense) - giving respect to the old, not to forget the ancient wisdom. I'm perfectly certain nobody understood what my point is - I'll have to think about how to express my confused mind better. I'm lame at expressing feelings & ideas, I'm better at materialist descriptions!

04-25-2002, 11:51 AM	#7
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	I think you summed it up well Oro. It comes down to the old adage: "Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them". It's a double-edged sword though. If we remember the past only to avenge the honor of long-dead ancestors, bringing those old mistakes to light deliberately, and repeating them willfully, then we wind up with a world very like the one we're living in now. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

04-25-2002, 02:12 PM	#10
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	More themes of LOTR! Here are some more themes, if you choose to write about them! At least, they are good food for thought [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The fallen nature of man, who fights with himself instead of fighting the true enemy; the inevitable fading of beautiful things and the disappearance of unspoilt nature; the evil results that come from using evil means, even with good intentions; and the saving power of courage, humility and simplicity of heart, as personified in the hobbits. By weaving these elements into a well-told story, Tolkien does more than entertain; he throws into relief important ideas that can become obscured or forgotten in the real world. __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

04-25-2002, 09:37 PM	#11
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Yeesh! I think I need to read more deeply [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]! I had thought about a couple of these themes, like friendship, but I didn't hardly think of all those! Maybe it's because I only read LotR once. I thank each and every one of you for you amazing analasysises (is that how you spell it??) of this great work of litrature (espeacialy Oro). [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

04-25-2002, 11:47 PM	#12
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	Orodhromeus - I completely felt that huge sense of loss at The Grey Havens. I cried so much when i read that chapter. Espeicially the very end. I reread that section over and over and i get teary every time. There IS such a big sense of loss there and right now for me it's hard to explain in words how it makes me feel and why it's such a powerful ending. Ack, this is a little off topic for this thread. Sorry! I've only read LOTR in its entirety once as well. I need to reread it this summer because there are so many things i've missed or forgotten! The beauty of Tolkien is that you can reread a passage you've just read and find about 10 things you didn't notice before. I love it. __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

04-26-2002, 12:17 AM	#13
Mr. Frodo Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End Posts: 13	Everyone here has very good points, Iespecially liked Jessica Jade's point about how Frodo was the only one who really could do it because he was innocent. For a good theme, you could look at her signature. Frodo is willing to sacrifice everything and go into this danger to save these people. The characters told them to us so many times and they go together perfectly throughout the books. Galadriel said that even the smallest person can make a difference, Gandalf warned us not to be to quick to give out judgement, and Sam showed use that the loyalty of a true friend is stronger than any blade. Each character teaches us something new or stops to remind us of something we've forgotten. These books are about loyalty, courage, and love, because that is what made these people real. I hope this helps with your report, I just finished writing one about the Fellowship of the Ring, too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I cried so much at the end of ROTK, too. It was just so unfair that the people who deserved the happily ever after the most aren't allowed to have it. Frodo was supposed to stay at Bag-End and get tricked by Sam into watching his kids on Friday nights, but Frodo wouldn't mind because he would spoil them. Frodo wasn't supposed to get sick. It just wasn't fair, but many who live deserve death, many who die deserve life and the world isn't fair, right? I guess I've babbled long enough, bye! __________________ "By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" (I'm the only girl in my school LOTR obssessed enough to call myself Mr. Frodo)

05-16-2002, 07:33 PM	#14
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Well, I wrote my report. I got an A! (no plus [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) And what's more, the teacher wrote a note on how she especially liked the theme part, and she said that rasied my grade from a B to an A because it was written so well and I read the book very deeply [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Thanks everyone! __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

05-18-2002, 02:28 AM	#15
Baran Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mordor/Lothlorien Posts: 71	Now that's a happy ending [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

05-18-2002, 12:10 PM	#16
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	I think Mr. Frodo is onto something examining Sam's character in the context of your theme of small people under big circumstances. Sam wasn't Gandalf's choice, he got involved sort of by accident. He's not particularly smart, not particularly agile, not much of a fighter. He cooks. But Sam's unwavering loyalty to Frodo and his simple understanding or what's right and what's wrong leads him into Mordor. He takes on a quest for which he hasn't been "chosen". He bears the ring that isn't his to bear. Sam may not be fully cognizant of the importance of the ring's destruction, but knowing that it is evil and has damaged Frodo is enough. He opens his heart to be a channel of healing and help for Frodo as he unleashes a "prayer of power" for lack of a better term in Elvish, a language he doesn't understand. Sam sees himself always as secondary in importance yet willingly and wholeheartedly participates in the quest. Sam accepts his own powerlessness over the situation saying "what a story we are in". Sam's paticipation is key to getting the ring to the Mount Doom, yet he always participates with a servant's heart. In the end he is the one who receives honor. In a way it's Sam's story: he gets the girl, becomes the mayor, and eventually takes his place in the West with the other ringbearers __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8

05-18-2002, 12:11 PM	#17
greyhavener Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: austin Posts: 169	Oh, and Gimli Son of Gloin - congratulations on your grade...you rock! __________________ Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8