Uruk Hai - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gashberz · 12-10-2003, 10:45 PM

Yes Uruk Hai. The most awesome of the orc species. I love them their sooo awesome. Now tell me in the books they were fierce and showed no mercy, and in the movies they softened them up a bit. Tell me what is wrong with this picture.

Estelyn Telcontar · 12-11-2003, 02:16 AM

Hi! Sounds like you're looking for comparisons between the book and movie versions of the orcs. I'm moving this thread to the Movies forum, where others who are interested can read and answer.

Jjudvven · 12-11-2003, 02:35 PM

I didn't think that they softened them up at all! They were rather mean and viscious in the movie as well as the book. Even more so perhaps, eating one of their own kind! How did you mean that they softened them up? They seemed pretty nasty to me.

Lord of Angmar · 12-11-2003, 02:41 PM

I agree with Jjudvven. They certainly seemed more ferocious and beastly and less human in the movies than they did in the books, at least to me.

doug*platypus · 12-11-2003, 03:22 PM

Yeah, sorry Gashberz but seems like a bad call. They were totally more barbaric and animalistic. Much more one-dimensional, their entire motivation seems to be that they were evil, working class peasants (at least in the TTT with their accents). Uglúk and Co may have chopped a few necks in the book, but no Orc ever ate another one. Even they didn't practice cannibalism. You only have to read Robinson Crusoe to see what Tolkien probably would have thought of that! As a matter of fact, doesn't Grishnákh insult Uglúk by saying he probably eats Orcs' flesh?Hopefully PJ shows the "lighter side of Orcs" with the conversation between the captains in Torech Ungol. But I don't have a lot of faith that it will happen. Trust not to hope, it has forsaken these movies several times already.

Lord of Angmar · 12-11-2003, 03:45 PM

That is a rather grim assessment of the movies, doug*platypus. Personally I have had no major problems with the orcs in Peter Jackson's movies. The changes in the orcs were made because mass audiences want gruesome, "monster"-esque villains. I do hope, however, that the scene in Torech Ungol will stay true to the books (you can't hope for too much similarity though, given the current trend with the orcs in the movies). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Uglúk and Co may have chopped a few necks in the book, but no Orc ever ate another one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that that is accurate. Either Gandalf or Aragorn states at one point that it is "their way" (meaning the orcs) to eat one another at times of scarce food resources, and it was even implied that orcs kill and eat orcs of different breeds simply for the sport of it.

ArathorofBarahir · 12-11-2003, 04:54 PM

I don't think the Uruk Hai were softened up a bit at all. I think they were pretty fearsome and fearocious if you ask me.

Burzdol · 12-14-2003, 08:15 PM

I agree that they were fierce and eveything, but why did they stop and complain? There was one line that one of the Uruk Hai said, "We ain't had nothin but maggoty bread for three stinkin days." I thought that a regular orc should've said that. So I'm kind of half and half on this one.Burzdol

Lord of Angmar · 12-14-2003, 08:19 PM

I don't believe the orc that said the "maggoty bread" line was an Uruk. It was shorter, had a hunchback and was more smarmy and humanlike than the fiercely-portrayed Uruk Hai.

doug*platypus · 12-15-2003, 03:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> eat one another at times of scarce food resources <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Umm... yeah, that might be near the part where Gimli talks about the central nervous system. Where in the book was that again?It wasn't very clear, but I meant that no specific incident occurs in the book that we are told about, where orcs eat one another. It may have happened at some isolated times or places, but it certainly wasn't common practice as Grishnákh's comment shows.I'm quite disappointed with the movie treatment of the orcs. It is understandable, but I don't see any reason why the writers had to follow the norm. I personally believe very little in "good" and "evil" as protrayed in Hollywood. There are many, many instances in the books where evil is shown to not be entirely so. Not just Gollum, but orcs, Sauron, Melkor, a southron warrior, the Dunlendings, the list goes ever on and on. However the scriptwriters of these movies elected to go the old predictable way, on yet another ill-advised departure from the written word. It's basically been turned into Braveheart or The Patriot, where the enemy has no heart, moral code, or basically any human emotion. They exist for the sole purpose of being the enemy of the good guys. This is a dangerous way to portray a war, because this concept can leak its way into peoples' sub-conscious, and for some even affect their view of any real conflicts. In times of war, politicians and generals systematically dehumanise the enemy, try to transform them into some kind of devil so that it will be easier to kill them without pangs of conscience. I'm not suggesting that every war movie should be an endless rant about how even the enemy has emotions, but surely there has to be a middle ground.The way the orcs have been dumbed down is just another case of the book in general being dumbed down to give a more traditional Hollywood feel. I think it's a shame, because the story is worth so much more than that kind of treatment. Orcs represent the darker side of human nature and what we as a pretty barbaric species are capable of, but the point is lost entirely if they are only ever portrayed as animals.

The Only Real Estel · 12-15-2003, 04:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't believe the orc that said the "maggoty bread" line was an Uruk. It was shorter, had a hunchback and was more smarmy and humanlike than the fiercely-portrayed Uruk Hai.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm pretty sure that it was an Uruk-Hai. It's face is the main thing I'm basing my opinion on, but I also don't remember seeing anything BUT a face. No hunchback, etc. I'm sure that the orc that refused to go any further until they 'had a breather' was not an Uruk-Hai, & there is complaints among those 'regular orcs' about all the running in the books, so I dont' think they were weakened any. Also, I agree with Lord of Angmar that somewhere in the books, it did give reference to them not being above eating there own kind. Seriously, Uruks have absolutly no preference as to what kind of meat they eat.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-16-2003, 11:09 AM

And the Orc that wanted "some meat" seemed completely out of place. Beady red eyes and aeroplane wing ears. However, I would side with the majority on this thread and agree that the Uruk's were pretty scary looking.

12-10-2003, 10:45 PM	#1
Gashberz Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Diego, U.S.A Posts: 57	Uruk Hai Yes Uruk Hai. The most awesome of the orc species. I love them their sooo awesome. Now tell me in the books they were fierce and showed no mercy, and in the movies they softened them up a bit. Tell me what is wrong with this picture. __________________ "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man´s flesh to eat!" -Uglúk

12-11-2003, 02:16 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,535	Hi! Sounds like you're looking for comparisons between the book and movie versions of the orcs. I'm moving this thread to the Movies forum, where others who are interested can read and answer. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

12-11-2003, 02:35 PM	#3
Jjudvven Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Land to the West Posts: 154	I didn't think that they softened them up at all! They were rather mean and viscious in the movie as well as the book. Even more so perhaps, eating one of their own kind! <P>How did you mean that they softened them up? They seemed pretty nasty to me. __________________ "I don't know all of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve."

12-11-2003, 02:41 PM	#4
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I agree with Jjudvven. They certainly seemed more ferocious and beastly and less human in the movies than they did in the books, at least to me. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-11-2003, 03:22 PM	#5
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 961	Yeah, sorry Gashberz but seems like a bad call. They were totally more barbaric and animalistic. Much more one-dimensional, their entire motivation seems to be that they were evil, working class peasants (at least in the TTT with their accents). <P>Uglúk and Co may have chopped a few necks in the book, but no Orc ever ate another one. Even they didn't practice cannibalism. You only have to read Robinson Crusoe to see what Tolkien probably would have thought of that! As a matter of fact, doesn't Grishnákh insult Uglúk by saying he probably eats Orcs' flesh?<P>Hopefully PJ shows the "lighter side of Orcs" with the conversation between the captains in Torech Ungol. But I don't have a lot of faith that it will happen. Trust not to hope, it has forsaken these movies several times already. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-11-2003, 03:45 PM	#6
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	That is a rather grim assessment of the movies, dougplatypus. Personally I have had no major problems with the orcs in Peter Jackson's movies. The changes in the orcs were made because mass audiences want gruesome, "monster"-esque villains. I do hope, however, that the scene in Torech Ungol will stay true to the books (you can't hope for too much similarity though, given the current trend with the orcs in the movies).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Uglúk and Co may have chopped a few necks in the book, but no Orc ever ate another one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that that is accurate. Either Gandalf or Aragorn states at one point that it is "their way" (meaning the orcs) to eat one another at times of scarce food resources, and it was even implied that orcs kill and eat orcs of different breeds simply for the sport of it. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.*

12-11-2003, 04:54 PM	#7
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	I don't think the Uruk Hai were softened up a bit at all. I think they were pretty fearsome and fearocious if you ask me. __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

12-14-2003, 08:15 PM	#8
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	I agree that they were fierce and eveything, but why did they stop and complain? There was one line that one of the Uruk Hai said, "We ain't had nothin but maggoty bread for three stinkin days." I thought that a regular orc should've said that. So I'm kind of half and half on this one.<P>Burzdol __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"

12-14-2003, 08:19 PM	#9
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I don't believe the orc that said the "maggoty bread" line was an Uruk. It was shorter, had a hunchback and was more smarmy and humanlike than the fiercely-portrayed Uruk Hai. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-15-2003, 03:30 PM	#10
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 961	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> eat one another at times of scarce food resources <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Umm... yeah, that might be near the part where Gimli talks about the central nervous system. Where in the book was that again?<P>It wasn't very clear, but I meant that no specific incident occurs in the book that we are told about, where orcs eat one another. It may have happened at some isolated times or places, but it certainly wasn't common practice as Grishnákh's comment shows.<P>I'm quite disappointed with the movie treatment of the orcs. It is understandable, but I don't see any reason why the writers <B>had</B> to follow the norm. I personally believe very little in "good" and "evil" as protrayed in Hollywood. There are many, many instances in the books where evil is shown to not be entirely so. Not just Gollum, but orcs, Sauron, Melkor, a southron warrior, the Dunlendings, the list goes ever on and on. <P>However the scriptwriters of these movies elected to go the old predictable way, on yet another ill-advised departure from the written word. It's basically been turned into Braveheart or The Patriot, where the enemy has no heart, moral code, or basically any human emotion. They exist for the sole purpose of being the enemy of the good guys. This is a dangerous way to portray a war, because this concept can leak its way into peoples' sub-conscious, and for some even affect their view of any real conflicts. In times of war, politicians and generals systematically dehumanise the enemy, try to transform them into some kind of devil so that it will be easier to kill them without pangs of conscience. I'm not suggesting that every war movie should be an endless rant about how even the enemy has emotions, but surely there has to be a middle ground.<P>The way the orcs have been dumbed down is just another case of the book in general being dumbed down to give a more traditional Hollywood feel. I think it's a shame, because the story is worth so much more than that kind of treatment. Orcs represent the darker side of human nature and what we as a pretty barbaric species are capable of, but the point is lost entirely if they are only ever portrayed as animals. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-15-2003, 04:39 PM	#11
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,917	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't believe the orc that said the "maggoty bread" line was an Uruk. It was shorter, had a hunchback and was more smarmy and humanlike than the fiercely-portrayed Uruk Hai.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm pretty sure that it was an Uruk-Hai. It's face is the main thing I'm basing my opinion on, but I also don't remember seeing anything BUT a face. No hunchback, etc. I'm sure that the orc that refused to go any further until they 'had a breather' was not an Uruk-Hai, & there is complaints among those 'regular orcs' about all the running in the books, so I dont' think they were weakened any. Also, I agree with Lord of Angmar that somewhere in the books, it did give reference to them not being above eating there own kind. Seriously, Uruks have absolutly no preference as to what kind of meat they eat.

12-16-2003, 11:09 AM	#12
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,916	And the Orc that wanted "some meat" seemed completely out of place. Beady red eyes and aeroplane wing ears. However, I would side with the majority on this thread and agree that the Uruk's were pretty scary looking. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond