Eagles: Great Heros Of Middle Earth

[Marroc Underhill]

Don't you find it great that J.R.R. Tolkien used Eagles as great, powerful creatures in his books? There a symbol of hope and power.

[Måns]

Basicly yes, but since when has the eagle been a symbol of hope? It is a frequently used symbol, and in the latin religion (related to the etruscan) eagles could carry messages from higher powers that the Augurs would understand and interpret. tThis is true of other birds as well but not in the same degree, look at Livius story about the death of Remus where eagles carry signs to both the brothers. This could also be inherited from Greece, if you see the Iliad, an eagle comes flying from the right and drops it's prey, that it comes from the right for the Greeks, is seen by Idomenevs as a sign from the Gods that Zeus supports them now against Hektor and his Troyans and allies. (Here however Hektor displays his pride and hybris by shouting that he cared not for birds, he was going to set fire to the Greek ships.) It was also a sign of the Roman dominance over the other realms they governed, used in their legions symbol. Anyway, the eagle has been a symbol since then, noble families in medieval times had it as a symbol and Poland, Russia and even Prussia have had eagles with varying numbers of heads on them as symbols. Another famous chap with the eagle was Napoleon, also there the eagle symbolized power, great power. Nazi Germany ahd a tendency to use eagles as well, and now the United States use it frequently, none fo the three stand for any hope for most people in this world, only power and in many cases fear. It is a symbol of power, not hope.

Måns

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I agree with marroc in that Tolkien uses the Eagles as a symbol of hope. In the Battle of the Five Armies, and in Cormallen, the cry ¡Eagles! ¡The Eagles are coming! is a cry of hope, it represents that not everything is lost, that the Valar (Eagles are the messengers of Manwë) care for them and are sending their help.

In some sense, eagles remind me of the Seventh of Cavalry in westerns [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ August 10, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for
we are the true power!

Hear, hear! So true, Marroc! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Eagles definately have a special meaning in Tolkien's world, more so than any other 'real' animal. Many times in the Silmarillion they show up at need, to whisk away an injured Man or Elf or too keep watch over a guarded realm. As Amarie says, they are also saviors in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, in the Battle of Five Armies, the escape of Gandalf, the reincarnation of Gandalf, and at the Field of Cormallen. Many of Tolkien's main characters owe their lives to an eagle coming by at the right moment. There are too many to name!

Whether this was symbology for hope or that eagles represented a consistent (and 'holy', because of their link to Manwe) guardianship over the doings of Middle Earth, eagles certainly do play an important part. I daresay things would be very different if it wasn't for the eagles stepping in now and then!

[Rumil]

I always believed that Tolkien included the eagles because his favourite pub in Oxford was the 'Eagle and Boy' (On Woodstock road more or less opposite St. John's and the 'Lamb and Flag' if memory serves).

The pub sign depicts a giant eagle carrying a boy (or at least it does now). Apparently JRRT used Z

I too remember hearing this somewhere, Rumil. While Professor Tolkien certainly seemed to dislike allegory, he did allow many things to (inadvertantly or not) influence his works. Things like his religion, his ideals, and just personally things in his life. But then, I guess we all let our lives represent our works. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I would liken Eagles to angels. They fly, they are beautiful, powerful and majestic; sent to Middle-Earth as the agents of Manwe. (Actually, if anyone has noticed, 'eagle' is in fact a similar phonetic enunciation to 'angel'. The two words are related in they way they are said.)

Since eagles do fly, and since they are powerful and majestic -- surely we all admire them (well obviously I do myself...) -- they are effective in this role. The manifestation of divine assistance and power, if you like.

[Måns]

But surely, the eagles cannot be emant as the angels fo Middle Earth, since that obviously were the Valar and maiar. Well, my first post's point is to point out htat it is indeed a strange symbol to use as the symbol of hope.

Måns

[Marroc Underhill]

Thank you Lord of Angmar, for it is true. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Evisse the Blue]

I don't think the valar and maiar are what you would call angels.
They seem to me like the major resp. minor gods of ME and their (specifically Manwe's) servants were the eagles. Then it makes sense to say that they're like the angels of ME, because angels are the servants of God, and they act as tools of divine intervention as did the eagles.

[Kaiserin]

Eagles have been a symbol of strength, though I'm not sure about hope. What I do know is that they can be used as a sign of renewed strength - and I guess that's where the hope comes in (Eagles go through a moulting process when they become generally weak; after which they renew their strength and become the glorious lords of the skies). It's significant, I guess, in relation to renewed strength, that the eagles came at times when our heroes were helpless and seemingly hopeless - cornered by warg-riding goblins, trapped at Orthanc, the Battle of Five Armies, etc. The words "the eagles are coming" even conveyed a hope for renewal, drawn from Frodo's subconsciousness, as he and Sam laid helpless at Oroduin.

Anyway, just love them eagles. I like the way Tolkien exaggerates their size, speed and strength.

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

[Måns]

Ah but you see Evisse the Blue, Tolkien was a devout catholic. As he clearly experesses in his letters, there cannot be more than one God, the One, the Highest. The valar are his servants, and put as guardians of Eä and angels were the guardians of men. Check up Letter #131 to Milton Waldman, and Letter # 153 to Peter Hastings (both in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, hence the numbers) for some information on the subject.

Måns

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Mans, the Ainur are not like Angels. As Evisse says, they are the 'gods' of Arda under Eru -- as they are sometimes referred to.

They are not God, however. Illuvatar is this. The Ainur in Ea are spirits confined within this world, and are not gods on anything like the same par as Illuvatar the One is.

And the Eagles are well likened to Angels, as I described them in my post. They are not actually angels, but are like them in the roles they play in Middle-Earth.

Eagles have been a symbol of strength, thought I'm not sure about hope...

In Tolkien they are both. Powerful, majestic, coming unlooketh-for when they are needed (angel analogy again)... Kaiserin by the way, I think you are referring to the moulting process of sea-going birds. I am fairly sure that Eagles do not do this. They'd starve fairly quickly. At any rate, I don't think this really had anything to do with it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kaiserin]

In the Silm, eagles and ents were agents of the Valar. They were created after that "dwarvish havoc". I read an LOTR commentary saying that the eagles and ents intercede only when Orome (and the other Valar) allowed - so they would then be, in fact, like angels. On a literary perspective, they were an element of divine intervention.

Mr. Windlord: Eagles do molt - (ask National Geographic) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Anyway, the reason I put that in my previous post is that I was thinking about eagles symbolizing renewed strength, and noted they came in handy when the characters were weak and helpless [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ August 15, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm, a bit remote though isn't it? And I'll get back to you about the facts on Ealge moulting (I've got a terribly feeling that you may be right [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img])...

[Måns]

No, no and again no. They were not the Gods of Arda, they were the guardians of it. I do not know if you are a Roman catholic, but I am personally not religious, but there is only one God, one, the single creator. He is raised above the others and put his angels to guard men. They may have been viewed by men as Gods, but they were not that. Neither did men worship them or did they seek to be worshipped, two of what we would call criterias of being a God. I completely fail to understand your reasoning when you say they are Gods, it is simply not possible in Roman Catholicism that htere should exist a sub-God. I could accept that they are of a 'higher angelic order' and thus, some kind of archangels, whilst the others may be claled angels... But no, I reject that anything could be called God except Eru the creator.

Måns, sorry for the awful mess and tone.

[Evisse the Blue]

Måns, there are no worship rituals in LOTR, not even for Illuvatar. I think there is a passing reference to such rituals in Silmarillion, though. But then, one could also argue that elves worshipped Varda - they made hymns in her honor, didn't they? However, I think you make a mistake in drawing parallels with Roman Catholicism; even though Tolkien was a devout believer - I agree on that - he specifically insisted that there is no explicit religious 'system' in ME to whom elves, hobbits, etc would adhere to. In my opinion, he made a world after his own rules, even though he was inspired from many sources.

Back to the eagles: the famous phrase "The eagles are coming" does seem to be the major trigger for eucatastrophe in LOTR, the Hobbit and Silm. This phrase seems to have miraculous powers in itself - regenerating health of mind and body, restoring hope of those who had been defeated or hopeless- precisely because they know from stories or personal experience, the coming of the eagles is associated with miraculous happenings and the 'turn of the tide.'

[Måns]

Which is my point, actually, that they were not Gods, even if they migh be seen as such by the lesser ebings, as Melkor wanted to be seen by his inferiors. You are sayin that they were not Gods, as if you're contrasting with my opinion when my last words are that I reject that they were Gods, the ainur that is. Could you please help me a little, I don't get it.

Kindly, Måns

[Lush]

and Poland, Russia and even Prussia have had eagles with varying numbers of heads on them as symbols.

Russia's eagle is two-headed, with one head looking toward Asia, and the other looking toward Europe.

Tolkien's eagles might have been great heroes, but, as some have argued elsewhere (another great old thread worth reading), they might also the deus ex machina of Middle Earth, though on much more complex terms than the said theory implies at first glance (i.e. not something totally random that helps the story along during critical moments, but as an element that is one of the essential parts of Tolkien's mythology).

[Måns]

Ah thank you for the note on the heads, Polands eagle has also got more than one, I think but well, things slip out of my mind at this ripe age.

sum Måns optimus maximus.

[Evisse the Blue]

Måns,
You said:

Neither did men worship them or did they seek to be worshipped, two of what we would call criterias of being a God

I reject that anything could be called God except Eru the creator.

I was still trying to argue that they are gods (although notice that I didn't spell it with capital G as in God)by proving that your worship rituals idea by which one would be considered a god is not true in ME even for Illuvatar, who we all agree is the Supreme Being.

[Måns]

The cult of Illuvatar was practiced at one place in Middle earth, Meneltarma, the top of the mountain in the middle of Númenor. There was a worshipping of him as God, creator and lifegiver, offering of the first fruits and other rituals that belong in peasant religions. This is not mentioned passing by, it is said much of it in the unfinished tales and it has an importnat palce in the Silmarillion as the only palce Sauron dared not to desecrate. I refer once more to that Tolkien always defended his work as fully christian and monotheist, he explicitly said tha tthey were not Gods. What you say is worshipping of Varda is comparable to calling for a saint, knowing thet his/her power is limited but wishing help in need. In ME, it seems to have had more of an effect that hte very name made orcs shiver, even the nazgul didn't like Frodo shouting Elbereth. Something that supports this si the strict dividing of valar into special areas, for example Oromë hunting and Aulë smithing. Just as with saints, they have different responsibilities, St. George wasthe patron of the Knights, Anna of the miners and so no. This seems to indicate that Vlar ahd the twin role of powerful saints and guardian angels at the same time. I do not think it is a mistake to draw a paralel between Tolkien's religion and his works, in a letter to a reporter he says that it is what has affected his works most deeply. He ahs numerous times defended his works as fully acceptable within the frames of Christian theology, with one God and creator, and since he saw ME as a paralell to our world, why should he see them as Gods there?

Måns

[Evisse the Blue]

I basically disagree with drawing parallels or analogies, particularly when they involve religion, but I can follow your argument that valar can be likened to saints. However saints equals not angels. Correct me if I'm wrong - you seem to be more learned that me in religious canon, but, while saints and angels both have the job of watching over men, it's the angels that act as direct tools of divine intervention (see eagles) while saints have a more passive role, like -if you will, the Valar in LOTR. They can intervene in the lives of mortals, but they generally do not and if they do, they use messengers.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Although we hear several 'prayers' to the Valar ( note Damrod's request that the Valr 'turn aside' the Mumakil) we still get the impression that Eru is acknowledge as the 'supreme authority' by those who knew of him. Who would these people be? Well, the descendants of the Atani. Notice in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (HoME 10)we hear from Andreth that the House of Hador alone had kept a name for 'Eru' and that the Beorian elements of the Edain had almost forgotten about them. I think that the Marachian tribes who remained in Eriador or Rhovanion may have forgotten about Eru, after a while and mayhap the elements of Bereg's tribe that went into Eriador and the Marachian peoples who passed over the west may have kept some element of Elvish teachings esp. Eru but this too, eventually may have passed. Evidently, the Atani knew many customs from the Eldar. For example, in the Wanderings of Hurin(HoME 11) we learn that the Haladin had inherited the 'custom' of naming Namo and Manwe before a moot, so the moot was 'hallowed'. The House of Stewards and tomb of Kings was also hallowed (Maybe Rath Dinen was too hallowed?) and so evidently such customs were passed on to the Numenoreans (I don't know if this is significant in any way but Norinan, the tombs of the Numenorean kings was on the valley on the south-eastern valley of Meneltarma, maybe all Dunedain burial places were hallowed, a custom they made themselves since Elves would not have or have had burial grounds in Aman or Beleriand) also, since the custom of naming certain Vala to hallow the moot was taken from the Elves, one can presume that Eru was too 'high' to be named in such circumstances. We learn in Cirion and Earlthat Cirion swore a oath of friendship with Rohan, and in it he named Eru, and such a oath had not been sworn since Elendil and Gil-Galad's and presumably the only other time a oath upon Eru would have been sworn was when Aragorn and Eomer re-newed the oath of Eorl and Cirion. So a oath sworn upon Eru was not something to be taken lightly.

The Valar, you must remember, are not gods, though men do confuse them as being gods, at times, many men confused the Numenoreans as being 'gods' and later on the men of darkness took Sauron who preached atheism (to wekane resistence to himself) as 'god'.

Also the Eagles are not Maia or gods.