What if?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ManofDale · 12-04-2005, 10:11 PM

What if Smaug was never destroyed and became swayed under the influence of Sauron with promises of gold (However he might ensnare him to his dark will), would the Eagles be able to contend with Smaug and the Nazgul on their Fell Beasts at the same time? What are your thoughts on this? Please elaborate as well on possible outcomes...

mormegil · 12-04-2005, 10:53 PM

My first thought here is that Smaug's will is his own and would not be held under Sauron's sway because while Sauron is powerful he is no Morgoth and controlling a dragons is something I don't see possible especially without his ring.

Now as for an Eagle taking on a dragon there is no competition, a dragon is much greater.

Farael · 12-04-2005, 11:12 PM

but it'd make for an interesting story, as it is believed that the fire of the dragons could destroy the Ring!!

I don't believe either that Sauron could control the will of a Dragon, yet it is possible that they could work together, trying to outsmart each other yet moving towards the same goal in the beginning. Something along the lines of destroying the oposittion first and then they'd probably kill each other. After all we should consider that Smaug fell of a single (Well placed) arrow and Sauron could probably defeat him if caught of guard, but Smaug would be too smart to be easily tricked.

the phantom · 12-04-2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

My first thought here is that Smaug's will is his own and would not be held under Sauron's sway...

I'm not so sure.

Gandalf says this in UT, The Quest of Erebor-

Quote:

The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: 'I must find some means of dealing with Smaug.'

Gandalf thought Sauron would be able to "use" Smaug.

mormegil · 12-04-2005, 11:43 PM

I see your point but Sauron also thought he used Shelob but he didn't control her, so my point remains valid if it is seen that Smaug is his own master. Using a creature like that can be unpredictable.

Fingolfin II · 12-05-2005, 12:41 AM

I'm inclined to agree with mormegil here. While, as the phantom points out with that quote from UT, Smaug could be used by Sauron, the control Sauron would have over him IMHO would be very limited- like Shelob, as astutely pointed out by morm.

I suppose the same thing may be said of the Balrog of Khazad-Dum also; if Sauron tried to persuade Smaug or the Balrog to his service, they would probably start out by following his instructions, yet Smaug's desire for gold and riches and the Balrog's desire to....kill....would in the end overcome their 'servitude' to Sauron and they would serve only themselves, destroying for pleasure. Not that this is totally out of line with Sauron's desires- only they probably wouldn't completely obey all his desires.

deal_with_it · 03-30-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManofDale

What if Smaug was never destroyed and became swayed under the influence of Sauron with promises of gold (However he might ensnare him to his dark will), would the Eagles be able to contend with Smaug and the Nazgul on their Fell Beasts at the same time? What are your thoughts on this? Please elaborate as well on possible outcomes...

If Bards arrow goes astray, Smaug destroys Lake Town. The dwarves (via the Ravens) hear Smaug is coming back and are forced to leave. They return to the Iron Hills. Bilbo and Gandalf return to the West. There is no Battle of Five Armies. There is no rebuilding of Dale or of Erebor.

When the Battle of Dale occurs, Lake Town may have been rebuilt, but without the aid of the Dwarves, the men are quickly defeated. If Smaug helps, its a quick battle. Logically, Thranduil's kingdom is the next logical target. I don't see Thorin or Dain sending aid from the Iron Hills.

The Battle of Mirkwood - Here's where it can take a turn for good or bad. I'll keep it short. The wood elves, like the Lorien elves, use the woods as there defense and can easily defend against the Easterlings, also the wood elves are likely better archers than Bard of Lake Town was. If they have knowledge of Smaug's bald patch, they could in effect stop Smaug right there at the eaves of Mirkwood. The Easterlings would probably flee the woods in fear.

On the other hand Smaug could make quick work of the Elven Palace and burn the forest to ashes, creating another Desolation in the immediate area. The fleeing elves would get picked off by spiders (who stay out of the fight) and flee to Rivendell and Lorien. At that point the Eastern Army would proceed to conquer the lands east of the Misty Mountains.

12-04-2005, 10:11 PM	#1
ManofDale Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the streets of Dale in Wilderland. Posts: 11	What if?? What if Smaug was never destroyed and became swayed under the influence of Sauron with promises of gold (However he might ensnare him to his dark will), would the Eagles be able to contend with Smaug and the Nazgul on their Fell Beasts at the same time? What are your thoughts on this? Please elaborate as well on possible outcomes...

12-04-2005, 10:53 PM	#2
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,657	My first thought here is that Smaug's will is his own and would not be held under Sauron's sway because while Sauron is powerful he is no Morgoth and controlling a dragons is something I don't see possible especially without his ring. Now as for an Eagle taking on a dragon there is no competition, a dragon is much greater. __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

12-04-2005, 11:43 PM	#5
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,657	I see your point but Sauron also thought he used Shelob but he didn't control her, so my point remains valid if it is seen that Smaug is his own master. Using a creature like that can be unpredictable. __________________ When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. -- P. J. O'Rourke

12-05-2005, 12:41 AM	#6
Fingolfin II Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Where you want me to be Posts: 1,039	I'm inclined to agree with mormegil here. While, as the phantom points out with that quote from UT, Smaug could be used by Sauron, the control Sauron would have over him IMHO would be very limited- like Shelob, as astutely pointed out by morm. I suppose the same thing may be said of the Balrog of Khazad-Dum also; if Sauron tried to persuade Smaug or the Balrog to his service, they would probably start out by following his instructions, yet Smaug's desire for gold and riches and the Balrog's desire to....kill....would in the end overcome their 'servitude' to Sauron and they would serve only themselves, destroying for pleasure. Not that this is totally out of line with Sauron's desires- only they probably wouldn't completely obey all his desires. __________________ Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.

12-04-2005, 11:12 PM	#3
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,541	but it'd make for an interesting story, as it is believed that the fire of the dragons could destroy the Ring!! I don't believe either that Sauron could control the will of a Dragon, yet it is possible that they could work together, trying to outsmart each other yet moving towards the same goal in the beginning. Something along the lines of destroying the oposittion first and then they'd probably kill each other. After all we should consider that Smaug fell of a single (Well placed) arrow and Sauron could probably defeat him if caught of guard, but Smaug would be too smart to be easily tricked.