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07-09-2009, 02:54 PM | #1 |
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The creature Gothmog at the Siege of Minas Tirith
I never imagined that Gothmog, Lieutenant of Minas Morgul as he is called in RotK, was an orc. Given the hierarchy of Sauron's forces his Nazgul seem to be the leaders of his forces particularly in Minas Morgul the city of the ringwraiths. The Nazgul are described as great kings, sorcerers and warriors; most if not all were great leaders so I always thought of Gothmog as a Nazgul, the second-in-command at Minas Morgul. Unifinished Tales describes Khamul the Black Easterling as the second highest ranking Nazgul but he is also Sauron's lord over Dol Guldor during the War of the Ring. Some might say that once the High Nazgul was killed at the Battle of Pelennor that Khamul would have taken over but in UT it says that Khamul's power was the most diminished in daylight and this might explain why Gothmog, in my view the third ranking of all the Nazgul, would take over command since Sauron's artificial darkness was broken just before Theoden charges with the Rohirrim. I just don't see the eight remaining Nazgul falling under the command of some orc chieftain or brigand after the fall of the High Nazgul.
Any thoughts on Gothmog?
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07-09-2009, 03:50 PM | #2 |
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Gothmog was the name of the chief of the Balrogs in the First Age. I think Tolkien's use of this name was intentional and signifies that the Third Age Gothmog is not a mere Orc chieftain but rather an entity of significant power. When I first read LoTR, or at least before I made any connection between the names, I assumed that Gothmog (TA) was a Nazgul. I also note that the actual quote from LoTR is "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" which also strongly suggests a Nazgul. Making Gothmog second in command for the Battle of the Pelennor is not necessarily inconsistent with Khamul being "second to the Chief [Nazgul]". Khamul may simply have had other duties in the battle. Also, as Khamul was resident in charge of Dol Guldur, the legions of Morgul may have been better inclined to follow a leader they were familiar with, the lieutenant of that city.
While Khamul may have been the second "highest ranking" of the Nazgul at least per Unfinished Tales, we must keep also in mind that The Hunt for the Ring is truly unfinished. Christopher Tolkien comments that portions of the draft were superseded by The Tale of Years and JRRT had not prepared this excerpt for publication. While I hate to raise the issue of canon, I wonder if Tolkien would have modified his description of Khamul if he compared this draft with LoTR or perhaps clarified his "ranking" with regards to Gothmog. As an aside, Tolkien was notorious for not reusing names (there are some exceptions such as Glorfindel, who was apparently the same Elf in the First and Third Ages notwithstanding his death). Yet he had no problem reusing the name Grond so perhaps it is not surprising that he chose to reuse Gothmog.
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07-09-2009, 03:56 PM | #3 |
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Readers suggestions that the later Gothmog was a Nazgul or a Black Numenorean are no more than speculation; in the absence of further detail by Tolkien.
It is not clear if lieutenant here means the second-in-command of Minas Morgul or, more likely, second-in-command to the Witch-king, who is sometimes called the Morgul-lord. (Hammond/Scull)
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07-09-2009, 04:03 PM | #4 | |
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07-09-2009, 05:23 PM | #5 | |
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Also, even more speculatively, naming something is part of what we do to individualise people or things, part of what we do to give them unique worth. It strikes me as typical of Melkor and his ilk to not, for those very reasons, name anything. And, on that note, "Gothmog" is Sindarin, not Black Speech, so it's almost certainly a name given by either the Elves or the Dúnedain--unless Sauron was deliberately evoking the Balrog when he or the Witch-king gave Gothmog II his name.
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07-09-2009, 06:34 PM | #6 | |
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07-09-2009, 06:41 PM | #7 |
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Yes it was built by Finrod and where he died defending Beren, Tol-in-Gaurhoth was the island when Sauron inhabited it.
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07-09-2009, 07:13 PM | #8 |
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Alfirin, and Fellowship Boromir was actually Boromir II. There was the Steward Boromir, who was also a famed 'warrior,' but life was ended too soon suffering a fatal blow from the Witch-King.
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07-09-2009, 07:54 PM | #9 |
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Oh yeah, forgot about that one. What's a bit creepy is that Boromir I is the son of Denethor I son of Ecthelion I and Boromir II is the son Of Denthethor II son of Ecthelion II. Actually Faramir's a II as well, there was a Farmir I according to the ROTK appendix (youngest son of King Ondoher, was supposed by law to stay in Gondor when his father and older brother Artamir rode off to war, but followed them in secret and was slain in battle (as were they))
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07-10-2009, 07:41 AM | #10 |
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Also Denethor and Ecthelion were elves in the first age and there was Boromir son of Boron, also in the first age. Now what did Tolkien mean about not reusing names?
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07-10-2009, 09:11 AM | #11 | |
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07-10-2009, 09:27 AM | #12 |
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Well, for clarity perhaps, Tolkien himself did not say that Elves or Men did not reuse names, and in general they did reuse them.
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07-14-2009, 03:00 PM | #13 | |
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The assumption that the second-in-command on the Pelennor was a Nazgul is a fairly reasonable one. |
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07-14-2009, 05:17 PM | #14 | |
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Otherwise the lieutenant of Morgul had to be something like a really special creature and sure Tolkien would have described that kind of an "one more interesting weirdo" more closely - whether it be a very accomplished troll, a great werewolf, a Balrog (like the name suggests) or something else. The fact that he is just named as the second in command would suggest there is nothing unusual in it ie. it would be another Nazgűl just second in command?
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07-15-2009, 01:38 AM | #15 | ||
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Moreover, let us look at the history of the sentence about Gothmog: Quote:
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07-15-2009, 08:58 AM | #16 | |
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07-15-2009, 01:31 PM | #17 |
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Well, yes and no...
As a matter of fact it is the name "Witch-King" which is rarely used in LOTR: only once in the text itself (and it refers to the Angmar period) and several times in the Appendices, most of the cases also refer to the Angmar period. In other cases in LOTR he is called "The Morgul-lord" (Many meetings), "the Morgul-king" (the Stairs of Cirith Ungol) "Lord of Morgul"(App. A), and only once "King of Minas Morgul" (App. A.). The sentence about Gothmog II looks like one of the occasions where the WK seems to be called simply "Morgul". (I believe that all the mentions of "legions of Morgul" in LOTR mean the "Witch-King's legions", not "the host of Minas Morgul", because the host of the Minas Morgul fortress constituted only about a third of the army assembled at the Pelennor). There is another sentence in the "Hunt for the Ring" published in Reader's Companion, where the WK is called simply "Angmar". As to the the WK' names I have my own little theory: In Sindarin "King (Lord) of Morgul" would most likely sound as "Aran Morgul". It sounds like a name given by enemies, yet flattering, one that he would accept and use. "Lord of Black Magic!" A title more befitting Sauron himself, I would say. Not bad for he who had been a mere Man once... And if we go a tad further and consider how "Aran Morgul" would translate into Westron by a person from the "good side" - what do we get? The Witch-King! King of bad, Dark Sorcery = witchcraft. Translate both parts of the name and you get the Witch-King, translate only the title and you get Lord/King of Morgul. I believe the Nazgul Lord never changed his name: Aran Morgul he had been in Angmar, Aran Morgul he remained in Minas Morgul, the city named after him. Likely the Minas Morgul fortress, the former Minas Ithil, took its new name from its new ruler, not the other way round: it may simply mean "Morgul's Tower." Last edited by Gordis; 07-15-2009 at 01:40 PM. |
07-15-2009, 03:10 PM | #18 |
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07-15-2009, 04:34 PM | #19 | ||
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07-15-2009, 04:45 PM | #20 | |
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It appears to me 'Angmar' simply refers to the region.
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If he was 'the lord of that land', and himself called Angmar, why was he known as 'the Witch-king?
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07-15-2009, 04:50 PM | #21 | |
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Not in this quote, speaking of events of TA 3018 following the disaster at the ford of Bruinen. Here is the fuller quote:
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07-15-2009, 04:55 PM | #22 |
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I don't have the Reader's Companion, nor have I read it. Is it considered 'canon'?
And why' The Lord of Angmar, and not the Lord Angmar?
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07-15-2009, 05:05 PM | #23 | |
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The Hunt for the Ring in UT and RC is as uncanonic or canonic as all the unpublished Tolkien writings...
But the RC quote is indeed the single case in all the Legendarium where Tolkien calls the WK simply "Angmar", likely for shortness sake. As for Morgul, I believe in many cases "Morgul" might mean the "Lord of Morgul", not "Minas Morgul": Quote:
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07-15-2009, 05:07 PM | #24 | ||
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No one I know what call it such, as it's merely someone else's (Robert Foster's, if memory serves) index and brief explanation of people and places in the LotR--not bad, given when it was published (pre-Silm, or at least pre-Unfinished Tales), but not fully accurate, as it gets speculative in places and is directly contradicted by later, more authoritative (dare I say "canonical"? ) sources. Quote:
I don't want to say for certain, because my memory can't site any cases, but I think this type of usage is used in Shakespeare, possibly for monarchs, possibly (in the History places) for the Dukes (not saying these are Shakespearian examples, but they would be ducal examples: York, Lancaster, Norfolk). When you are referring to a monarch/lord as the body public, it is eminently properly to say "England," "Norfolk," or "Angmar." The "of" comes in when you use, additionally, his title, but the title is implied in the use of the place, since "Angmar" means, really, "the person who, by right of his office, is the body public of Angmar." Gordis is not arguing at all, as I understand it, that the Witch-king's personal name was Angmar, but merely demonstrating that this type of usage is made use of by Tolkien in reference to the Witch-king: that is, he is referred to by the land he is identified with as lord. In the case of the Kingdom of Angmar, this is incontrovertible. Personally, I find Gordis's reasoning for a like reference where "Morgűl" is made use of in the text to be convincing.
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07-15-2009, 05:14 PM | #25 | |
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That being said, though... I don't know that that actually proves that "Morgűl" on its own can be taken, therefore, as a marker of the Witch-king--at least not on a straight parallel to Minas Tirith, since if one refers to a ruler by the place he is ruler of, then it would follow here that, to parallel the use of "Angmar" as signifying the Witch-king, you should really be using "Minas Morgűl" to signify the Witch-king--unless, perhaps, you want to make the argument that "Black Sorcery" is being used, not to signify a place the Witch-king is lord over and identified with, but a thing or idea he is being identified with as the public body--the embodiment of. Which is an argument you can make... but I don't think the parallel with Minas Tirith entails it.
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07-15-2009, 05:23 PM | #26 | |||
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Actually I am arguing that the WK likely used the Sindarin name Aran Morgul= "Lord of Black Sorcery" for most of the Third Age. This translates both as the Witch-King and as Morgul-King Last edited by Gordis; 07-15-2009 at 05:40 PM. Reason: spelling |
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07-15-2009, 05:26 PM | #27 | |
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However, it does lie in the Morgul vale, or Imlad Morgul, which as far as I know was always the name of the area surrounding Minas Ithil/Morgul.
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07-15-2009, 05:32 PM | #28 |
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I am pretty sure Imlad Morgul was formerly known as Imlad Ithil and Morgulduin likely was Ithilduin...
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07-15-2009, 05:43 PM | #29 |
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Hmm...I thought Imlad Morgul was the original name, or in the very least the original name was never given and when the Nazgul came to town it is called Imlad Morgul. Given Minas Ithil (to Minas Morgul) and Ithilduin (to Morgulduin), Imlad Ithil would make sense, but I haven't come across Imlad Ithil before.
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07-15-2009, 05:50 PM | #30 | |
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Whether or not the Gondorians previously used Ithil in all cases where Morgűl later sufficed is impossible to be certain--though not unreasonable. It's quite possible, though, that they had "Minas Ithil," "Imlad Isildur," and "Duathduin" for all we know. All that we know is that, in 3018-3019, they all used "Morgűl" and that it seems to be inferential that the names in all three cases followed from the capture of the tower and city.
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07-15-2009, 05:58 PM | #31 |
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Note also that Minas Ithil reflects the name of Isildur and Minas Anor reflects the name of Anarion.
Likely Minas Morgul reflects the name of the Witch-King. Otherwhise how come both the Gondorians and the Mordorians started to use the same name "Minas Morgul" after 2002? It is unlikely they have agreed on it. So, who was the first to call it "Minas Morgul" and why? |
07-15-2009, 06:38 PM | #32 | ||
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As to who used the name 'Minas Morgul' first, Gandalf called the Black Captain 'a great king and sorceror of old'. I see no problem with the view that it was so named by the Gondorians, who were well aware of the nature of the creatures in command there. Another question, having to do with this passage: Quote:
The Morgul-king? Why not 'face King Morgul'?
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07-15-2009, 07:23 PM | #33 | |
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But I guess you can call him whatever you like. |
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07-15-2009, 08:18 PM | #34 | |
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Other rulers are referred to as 'King Théoden', ' King Eärnur', and 'King Brand'. Why is WK not once called 'King Morgul'?
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07-15-2009, 09:38 PM | #35 | |
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Within the tale, I think it's fair enough to note that this is not a particularly common way of referring to other people, past and present, and my general impression is that it's more literary than spoken--but, that being said, it's also a rather familiar way to speak of a king or lord, the sort of way, perhaps, that would be most likely to come from a peer. Hence, the King of England might refer to Louis N as "France" but it is less likely that an English or French peasant would. A peasant being derogatory would be more like to play off a knock-off of his title or address, as in "His Nibs," and a peasant being respectful would say "the King"--especially a French peasant, whose world would scarce have room for another king. However, that's a rather long and not particularly well-grounded rambling. Don't take it as a serious argument. You can take this as more serious, however: my first point in this post about Eärnur, Théoden, and Brand all actually having names, and the implicit point that the Witch-king has no name. This harkens back to a suggestion of mine earlier in the thread, when I pointed out that "Gothmog" need not be the actual name of the Lieutenant of Morgűl, but a mark of the namelessness of the servants of the Enemy. In the same way, the Witch-king has no real name. Presumably he did once, when he was a Second Age lord among lesser men... but he doesn't anymore. Calling him "the Witch-king" is, as the thrust of Gordis's general argument will agree, not giving him a name at all, but a title. It is perfectly consistent with this treatment to call him, variously, "the Witch-king," "Angmar," or "the Morgűl-king." Each one only individuates him to the extent he needs to be individuated--as the particular Nazgűl in charge. It's notable on that note that there is no name given to the King of the Nazgűl in the Fellowship. Granted, Frodo wouldn't likely have known it--but the Nazgűl never give one out, nor does Aragorn see the need for one beyond "the Nine" or "the Riders." The personalities of the Nazgűl are so far gone, butter stretched over so many vast years of bread. In this respect, it also strikes me that, as far as this goes, the Orks are less evil than the Nazgűl--which would seem a fair statement in any case--insofar as they still have names: Grishnákh, Uglúk, Gorbag, Shagrat, etc. Of course, they're hardly praiseworthy--they deny any name to those under them, lumping them all as "Snaga"... but I'm not really expecting much.
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07-15-2009, 10:09 PM | #36 | ||
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I can see the logic of this also. They had not surrendered their identities and wills as the Nazgűl and the Mouth of Sauron had. That reminds me- the Mouth had given so much of himself to Sauron that he could no longer conceive of an identity for himself apart from his Master. The Mouth was a living Man, having only been in the service of Sauron for some decades at most. The Witch-king had been in thrall to Sauron much longer, since the Second Age, and it is made clear that as powerful as he was, his will was entirely in the keeping of Sauron. By the time of the sack of Minas Ithil in the Third Age, would he have still retained enough of his original identity to have a real name, or to remember it?
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07-15-2009, 10:44 PM | #37 | ||||
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The analogy that comes to mind, with the whole Michael Jackson death thing in the news is the title "King of Pop," which is every bit as much a title as "King" on its own, or "King of England." My understanding of Gordis's thesis is that the WK is basically an evil Elvis that has forgotten Presley, and been called nought but the King of Rock for 3000 years. Quote:
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07-16-2009, 01:58 AM | #38 | ||||
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Thank you, Formendacil, you have brilliantly answered the questions for me! In fact you answered better than I could do it myself
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Gondorians spoke Sindarin and named places in this language. Morgul means Black Sorcery, Witchcraft. If the Witch-King, the King of Witchcraft, the king of Black Sorcery, was known in Sindarin as "Aran Morgul", the King of Morgul, then the new place name would be "Minas Morgul" automatically. And both sides, Gondorians ad nazgul alike, could have started to use it independently. Formendacil has answered that one. Because he was the King of Black Sorcery, the Witch-king, not a person whose name translates as "Black Sorcery". Morgul was never a simple personal name, it was more like translation of the"Witch"-part in "the Witch-King" or the "sorcerer king" (But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king..) Quote:
What is interesting in this book is that the authors have quoted parts of previously unpublished Tolkien's "the Hunt for the Ring" manuscripts kept in the Marquette University. You must be familiar with other parts of these texts if you have Unfinished Tales. These new Tolkien texts constitute only a small part of the RC book, about 10 pages in whole, I believe, but they are very interesting. There are also excerpts from the unpublished Tolkien's "Time-Schemes" and "Nomenclature". I advise you to buy the book: two-three years ago I have bought a used RC book on Amazon UK for only 3 euros. Quote:
A good guess would be that Khaműl is a Black Tongue word. If so, please compare the words "nazgűl" and "Khaműl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery: "nazgűl"= "ringwraith" "nazg"="ring" "gűl" or "űl"="wraith" My guess that "űl" in "Khaműl" also means "wraith", "shadow". And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgűl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth. The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "űl" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land". So basically we have two nazgul, known in the Third Age as "The King of Black Sorcery/Witchcraft" and "The Wraith/Shadow of the East" respectively. Both nicknames have nothing to do with their original names as living Men and their original identities. There could have been other nazgul called "the Shadow of the South" or "the Shadow of Rhun" etc. Some may have got new names from Sauron in memory of the First Age evil heroes as "Gothmog" or well...Glaurung or Ancalagon Why new names for the nazgul?- because they have left their old identities behind. I don't think they have forgotten who they used to be, but this page in their lives is shut forever. Come on, it happens not only with nazgul. King Elessar had been called Estel in his youth, Thorongil and Aragorn later, but the name he will be remembered by in history is King Elessar. Moreover in ME a real name is a powerful thing, letting it be generally known makes one vulnerable. Remember Treebeard's reaction? Quote:
Last edited by Gordis; 07-16-2009 at 02:20 AM. |
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07-16-2009, 05:12 AM | #39 | |
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07-16-2009, 09:17 AM | #40 |
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Angmar King or Kingdom
There is also the possibility that the Kingdom of Angmar was named after the inidvidual whose name was Angmar. The name has no previous affiliation with any region in the North and appears only after the Witch King forms it there.
Just an opinion but i haven't noticed if anyone has raised the possibility.
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