Where the heck is Belegost

[goldfinger]

I'm so confused with the location Belegost. I see it in the Silm. and it's a little north of Nogrod, but in the atlas of Middle earth Mrs. Fonstad has it far to the South. I'm a self proclaimed Dwarf scholar, but I have know idea which is correct. Someone please help!

[Boromir88]

I don't have Fonstad's Atlas...in general it's a good book for reference and maps. Maybe one of the better ones. However, Fonstad did not have access to all of Tolkien's writings therefor there are some inaccuracies with it.

Belegost should be east of Mount Dolmed and north of Nogrod. Visually, I don't know where Fonstad has it.

[Tevildo]

goldfinger,

I am looking at page 13 of Fonstad's Atlas. Fonstad does show Belegost about 150 miles south of Nogrod. I would definitely go with Silm on this one!

[A_Brandybuck]

I have two versions of the Atlas: the old one and the new one.

In the old one, both dwarven mansions are placed around Mount Dolmed rather north, whereas in the new one Belegost is placed in the far south. But the new one is a revision of the old one with access to HoME. The old one was made without HoME.

But I remember a quote in UT, where it is said, that Nogrod and Belegost are not far away from the lane Nenuial and therefore I would go with placing Belegost further north, near Nogrod.

[Gil-Galad]

The Blue Mountains are where Belegost and Nogrod resided, in the second age, the blue mountains were ripped open and that where we get Mithlond, The Grey Havens, Nogrod and Belegost was both north of the river that became the bay.

[Alcuin]

I believe Nogrod was destroyed in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, in which Beleriand was broken and sank below the waves. If you line up the maps, you will see that a huge hole was rent in Ered Luin, creating the Gulf of Lhûn: in the process, I think Nogrod was utterly ruined, if not completely destroyed. Belegost might have survived in damaged form into the Fourth Age. “Appendix B” of RotK says that around II 40, “Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.” These cities must be Belegost and Nogrod.

In The Treason of Isengard, “The First Map”, Map I shows Belegost well south of the Gulf of Lhûn in the Ered Luin. This would be in the mountains near the westward-reaching spur south of the Lhûn. In the commentary on this map, the test reads, “There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm.” These maps were drawn in 1943.

The map, section 2, in “The Later Quenta Silmarillion” in War of the Jewels shows Belegost north of Mount Dolmed and Nogrod south of it. Part 13, “Concerning the Dwarves”, §125 says that “‘Belegost was in Eredlindon south of Beleriand’ … seems to represent a reversion to an older conception of the place of the Dwarf-cities”, and then refers to the same map. These maps seem to date from the 1950s, if they were constructed with the rest of the text of “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”. (See the introductory text to that section of War of the Jewels.)

Morgoth’s Ring, “Annals of Aman”, entry for Valerian Year 1250, §84 states that it was the dwarves of Belegost who helped Thingol delve Menegroth. Since it was the Dwarves of Nogrod who killed Thingol out of lust for the Nauglamír with the Silmaril set in it, and the Dwarves of Nogrod who sacked Doriath while “the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose” (Silmarillion, “Of the Ruin of Doriath”), it may be that Nogrod was destroyed.

I do not know how Tolkien finally settled on this matter. Belegost is not marked in the same place on the Lord of the Rings as it was in the 1943 map; in fact, it is not marked at all. Nogrod would be where the Gulf of Lhûn lies in both the 1943 and the 1950s maps.

[Mänwe]

To add to Alcuin’s excellent post I believe that A_Brandybuck is referring to the following note;

“There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, 3 where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm.” – (Unfinished Tales, Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn.)

Though I do find the reference to the Nenuial rather strange, “not far from” when clearly the lake (I think you made a typo there A_Brandybuck) is a great distance from the Ered Luin, situated against the Hills of Evendim and consequently Belegost and Nogrod.

Alcuin provides us with evidence from “The War of the Jewels” that Belegost is north of Mount Dolmed, which does not contradict what is mentioned in the Silmarillion;

“To the north of the great height of Mount Dolmed was Gabilgathol, which the Elves interpreted in their tongue Belegost, that is Mickleburg; and southward was delved Tumunzahar, by the Elves named Nogrod, the Hollowbold.” – (The Silmarillion, Chapter 10, Of the Sindar)

I do not think that the distance is explicitly stipulated, I cannot help quote Christopher’s words on the matter;

“Whether Belegost was near to or far from Nogrod is not made plain;…” – (The Book of Lost Tales Part II)

Judging the distance by eye from the various maps will have to suffice..

As to whether they were destroyed, I believe that both were. If we take the Appendix of Lord of the Rings as Tolkien’s ‘true’ beliefs then;

“After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim.” – (Appendix A, III Durin’s Folk)

I would suggest is conclusive.