They were wrong,wrong ,wrong! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**lindil** · 08-31-2000, 07:28 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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I just read in RotK Aragorn saying to Eowyn ,as she begged him to let her go on the paths of the dead,'You have no errand in the south!"

can anyone recall other times when the good guys called it wrong?

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***The Barrow-Wight*** · 08-31-2000, 07:40 PM

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Re: They were wrong,wrong ,wrong!

Seems to me that Aragorn was spot on. Imagine if Eowyn would have been allowed to accompany the Grey Company into southern Gondor. She would simple have been a bystander. And the Lord of the Nazgul would not have been slain at Pelennor (for Merry would also not have been there).

By 'south' Aragorn was meaning 'south of the White Mountains'. Now if he would have said "no errand in the east" and would have been hindering her travel to Minas Tirith, then he would have been way off.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

**lindil** · 08-31-2000, 07:55 PM

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south by southeast by souhsoutheast by...

Aaragorn said explicitly that she should stay w/ her people and not go to war. if you prefer I could substitute that sentence for the going south one. however looking at my map here in front of me MinasTirith was southeast from Dunharrow- and one could say that Gondor was in general south of Rohan just as Rohan was south ofRhovanion.So while he was correct in that she should not go on the paths of the dead - he was wrong about her not going to war.

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galpsi · 08-31-2000, 08:18 PM

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Re: south by southeast by souhsoutheast by...

Oh just to play the devil's advocate...
Would Eowyn have been driven to the fey level of distraction and despair that enabled her to strike her deadly foe a deadly blow if she hadn't felt "dissed" by Aragorn. No, I'm hardly suggesting that old Ari was quite omnipotent enough to know this, but it served his author's agenda splendidly.
How's this for one...
Elrond wanted the young hobbits to go home. Would this have been better or worse? Aragorn and Gandalf wanted Gollum locked up in Mirkwood. Would this have been better or worse? Sam (the epitome of good sense) wanted to kill Gollum. And he was right! But imagine the tragic ending he'd have had to face if he'd killed the stinker. Faramir wanted the hobbits etc.

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mwcfrodo · 08-31-2000, 09:53 PM

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wrong advice

Perhaps not strictly in line with what you were thinking because it's pretty prosaic, but I've often felt Strider's boast "my cuts, long or short, don't go wrong" was proven wrong twice. First, Weathertop. You got to wonder what he was thinking to go to the most prominent place with little cover knowing that the Riders couldn't be all that far away. And, second, he got lost -- turning too far to the North when they could ill-afford a delay. All in all Frodo's ill-fated short cut through the Old Forest doesn't seem that bad. And it got them the Swords and opposed to getting Frodo stabbed with a morgul knife

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galpsi · 08-31-2000, 10:10 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
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Re: wrong advice

"One for the Shire! The hobbits bite is deep!" cried Aragorn. "You cut the crap mwcfrodo son of mwcdrogo!"

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Oliphaunt · 09-01-2000, 02:17 PM

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nice try Elrond

page 281, The Hobbit
<u>Gandalf:</u>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "The North will be freed from that horror (Sauron/The Necromancer) for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish that it were banished from the world!"<hr></blockquote>
<u>Elrond:</u>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "It would be well indeed, but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after."<hr></blockquote>
(after I typed all this out I started thinking that Sauron probably wasn't banished from the world but only depleted of his power. But we all know what Elrond meant anyway.)

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HerenIstarion · 10-30-2000, 03:05 PM

Wight
Posts: 157

The best quote I know of, which suits well all such situations, is

Quote:

... things might have been different, but they could not have been better ...

Tree and Leaf, Leaf by Niggle

gamegie · 11-01-2000, 09:11 PM

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Re: nice try Elrond

I agree with that last statement about not being able to make things better. Tolkien DID after all write a fantastic book, which could of course have been different, but it would not have been the same book which we all love.

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Balin999 · 11-03-2000, 04:46 AM

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re: another one who was wrong

Remember Fangorn who wanted to trample over the hobbits when he first saw them. thank goodness he wasnt hasty
<img src=smile.gif ALT="

">

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gamegie · 11-03-2000, 11:29 PM

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They did things wrongly!

How about the King of Angmar, Lord of the Nazgul. After demolishing the Main Gate to Minas Tirith, the Lord of the Nazgul moves back to the battle field and meets with his end against Eowyn and Merry.

Had he gone into Minas Tirith, things might have developed differently for sure.

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doug*platypus · 01-19-2003, 02:36 AM

Gandalf got it wrong when he let the matter of the Ring rest. When he confirmed that Frodo's ring was the One, he should have sent Frodo to Rivendell straight away before meeting with Saruman. True, it would have meant uprooting the young hobbit, but his failure to do so meant that the Nazgûl came within a hair's breadth of recovering the Ring. On the other hand, the delay allowed Merry and Pippin to cotton on, and tag along. If you believe that this was the all-important plus side to Gandalf's procrastination, you might want to click here.

Tirinor · 01-19-2003, 10:17 PM

Leaving a message with Butterbur was a bad idea, I don't know if that fits under the original question or not, but still, a bad idea. Somewhat surprising too, considering Gandalf's track record of character judgment (minus the Sauraman snafu). Not that Butterbur's character was bad, but the element of his character that Gandalf counted on was deficient in a most obvious sense, it's like asking a clepto to watch your stuff while you see a man about a horse.

Also, and perhaps more suited to the question, although the context clearly removes my forthcoming example from its, just claimed, position of being suited, when Gandalf says it would be better if Pippin would have taken the plunge into the ol' Moria well.

08-31-2000, 07:28 PM	#1
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	They were wrong,wrong ,wrong! <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> I just read in RotK Aragorn saying to Eowyn ,as she begged him to let her go on the paths of the dead,'You have no errand in the south!" can anyone recall other times when the good guys called it wrong? </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

08-31-2000, 07:40 PM	#2
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,052	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: They were wrong,wrong ,wrong! Seems to me that Aragorn was spot on. Imagine if Eowyn would have been allowed to accompany the Grey Company into southern Gondor. She would simple have been a bystander. And the Lord of the Nazgul would not have been slain at Pelennor (for Merry would also not have been there). By 'south' Aragorn was meaning 'south of the White Mountains'. Now if he would have said "no errand in the east" and would have been hindering her travel to Minas Tirith, then he would have been way off. The Barrow-Wight (RKittle) <font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p> __________________ The Barrow-Wight

08-31-2000, 07:55 PM	#3
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> south by southeast by souhsoutheast by... Aaragorn said explicitly that she should stay w/ her people and not go to war. if you prefer I could substitute that sentence for the going south one. however looking at my map here in front of me MinasTirith was southeast from Dunharrow- and one could say that Gondor was in general south of Rohan just as Rohan was south ofRhovanion.So while he was correct in that she should not go on the paths of the dead - he was wrong about her not going to war. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-03-2000, 04:46 AM	#10
Balin999 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2000 Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon Posts: 493	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 180</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> re: another one who was wrong Remember Fangorn who wanted to trample over the hobbits when he first saw them. thank goodness he wasnt hasty <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> </p> __________________ ...Nichts ist gelber als Gelb selber... ...The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, but conformity... ...Everything is possible, except to ski through a revolving door...

01-19-2003, 02:36 AM	#12
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 961	Gandalf got it wrong when he let the matter of the Ring rest. When he confirmed that Frodo's ring was the One, he should have sent Frodo to Rivendell straight away before meeting with Saruman. True, it would have meant uprooting the young hobbit, but his failure to do so meant that the Nazgûl came within a hair's breadth of recovering the Ring. On the other hand, the delay allowed Merry and Pippin to cotton on, and tag along. If you believe that this was the all-important plus side to Gandalf's procrastination, you might want to click here. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

08-31-2000, 08:18 PM	#4
galpsi The Unquiet Dead Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 971	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: south by southeast by souhsoutheast by... Oh just to play the devil's advocate... Would Eowyn have been driven to the fey level of distraction and despair that enabled her to strike her deadly foe a deadly blow if she hadn't felt "dissed" by Aragorn. No, I'm hardly suggesting that old Ari was quite omnipotent enough to know this, but it served his author's agenda splendidly. How's this for one... Elrond wanted the young hobbits to go home. Would this have been better or worse? Aragorn and Gandalf wanted Gollum locked up in Mirkwood. Would this have been better or worse? Sam (the epitome of good sense) wanted to kill Gollum. And he was right! But imagine the tragic ending he'd have had to face if he'd killed the stinker. Faramir wanted the hobbits etc. </p>

08-31-2000, 09:53 PM	#5
mwcfrodo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 41	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> wrong advice Perhaps not strictly in line with what you were thinking because it's pretty prosaic, but I've often felt Strider's boast "my cuts, long or short, don't go wrong" was proven wrong twice. First, Weathertop. You got to wonder what he was thinking to go to the most prominent place with little cover knowing that the Riders couldn't be all that far away. And, second, he got lost -- turning too far to the North when they could ill-afford a delay. All in all Frodo's ill-fated short cut through the Old Forest doesn't seem that bad. And it got them the Swords and opposed to getting Frodo stabbed with a morgul knife </p>

08-31-2000, 10:10 PM	#6
galpsi The Unquiet Dead Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 971	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: wrong advice "One for the Shire! The hobbits bite is deep!" cried Aragorn. "You cut the crap mwcfrodo son of mwcdrogo!" </p>

09-01-2000, 02:17 PM	#7
Oliphaunt Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 48	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> nice try Elrond page 281, The Hobbit <u>Gandalf:</u> <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> "The North will be freed from that horror (Sauron/The Necromancer) for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish that it were banished from the world!"<hr></blockquote> <u>Elrond:</u> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> "It would be well indeed, but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after.*"<hr></blockquote> (after I typed all this out I started thinking that Sauron probably wasn't banished from the world but only depleted of his power. But we all know what Elrond meant anyway.) </p>

11-01-2000, 09:11 PM	#9
gamegie Wight Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 109	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 115</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: nice try Elrond I agree with that last statement about not being able to make things better. Tolkien DID after all write a fantastic book, which could of course have been different, but it would not have been the same book which we all love. </p>

11-03-2000, 11:29 PM	#11
gamegie Wight Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 109	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 118</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> They did things wrongly! How about the King of Angmar, Lord of the Nazgul. After demolishing the Main Gate to Minas Tirith, the Lord of the Nazgul moves back to the battle field and meets with his end against Eowyn and Merry. Had he gone into Minas Tirith, things might have developed differently for sure. </p>

01-19-2003, 10:17 PM	#13
Tirinor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Alabama, U.S.A. Posts: 90	Leaving a message with Butterbur was a bad idea, I don't know if that fits under the original question or not, but still, a bad idea. Somewhat surprising too, considering Gandalf's track record of character judgment (minus the Sauraman snafu). Not that Butterbur's character was bad, but the element of his character that Gandalf counted on was deficient in a most obvious sense, it's like asking a clepto to watch your stuff while you see a man about a horse. Also, and perhaps more suited to the question, although the context clearly removes my forthcoming example from its, just claimed, position of being suited, when Gandalf says it would be better if Pippin would have taken the plunge into the ol' Moria well. __________________ War Eagle.