Drama out of nothing... perhaps (Regarding the War of the Ring)

[Smaug]

Hey guys,

I had a thought the other day. Obviously there was a certain necessity to get rid of the One Ring by destroying its threatening and callous power in the fires of Mount Doom. However, for many in the book (characters and general inhabitants of Middle Earth) wasn't the situation blown out of proportion just a bit perhaps? Granted, the free peoples were gravely threatened under the implications of the War of the Ring if Sauron should have become victorious, but there was at least some scope for the free races of Middle Earth. I mean, Sauron with the One Ring would have been unstoppable and would have without doubt taken over all the lands of Middle Earth but even his power (very great though it was) could be logically escaped. Obviously, the majority of dwellers in Middle Earth who did not take the passage along the waves to the Blessed Realm would have suffered pivotally and it would have been only the Elves plus potentially a select few of other races with permission (or rather the capability) to sail to the Blessed Realm with the ability to fully escape. Those who could have sailed to the Undying Lands would have escaped the grip of Sauron and his dark forces, as the Blessed Realm was unreachable even to his claws (metaphorically!) and any intervention by servants of the Dark Lord (if possible) would have been mostly likely suppressed by the power of Manwë. However, the dilemma here would be that the rest would be left to endure the torment of Barad-dûr under total captivity!

A second scenario could be that Eru Ilúvatar would never let his offspring be subject to complete dominion in Middle Earth by such corrupt evil and either He or the commissioned Valar would intervene to stop the advancement of Sauron if the situation got out of hand to such an extent that the Dark Lord could take total dominion over the free peoples. Sauron after all had neither the authority nor the strength to contest the power of the Valar or even greater, the actual creater of Arda, the one Eru.

Just a few thoughts from my mind and open to critique of course! Primarily, I wanted to project my feelings as the Internet thus far lacked coverage of my possibilities in the works of Tolkien to my knowledge.

[Celuien]

Welcome to the Downs, Smaug!

The threat to the Free Peoples of Middle-earth should Sauron have regained the One Ring was very real. Sauron's defeat in the Last Alliance was a difficult task, accomplished only after 12 years (counting from the taking of Minas Ithil) of battle and at great loss to his opponents. Arguably, the powers of the Elves and Men had diminished in the 3000 years between Sauron's defeat and the finding of the Ring. A military defeat would have been even more difficult, if not impossible, with a re-Ringed Sauron, leaving all of Middle-earth under the Shadow again. So, indeed, only the Elves would have been guaranteed a place of refuge, assuming the Havens remained open after a Sauronian victory. Pretty dismal for the poor hobbits, non-Sauron serving humans, and dwarves.

As to Eru directly intervening against Sauron, that really doesn't seem to be his style. Interventions appearing in the LOTR seem to be more along the lines of 'chance' happenings that give the intervened-upon individuals the choice of acting in accordance with Eru's plans or not. If Eru just came in and sent Sauron packing to the Void, that would deny humans, as the ultimate inheritors of Middle-earth, the chance to reject Sauron on their own. Additionally, it seems inconsistent for a being who admonished Morgoth that his actions would, in the end, only serve Eru's purpose, to step in and undo the opposing actions. That's almost as if Eru is saying "oops" and admitting that Sauron can interfere with his plan by misbehaving. And Eru never did directly oppose Morgoth's actions, even though Morgoth was a more powerful threat to Arda than his lieutenant. I'm not saying that Eru couldn't intervene - it's just that such an intervention doesn't fit with my understanding of Eru's typical behavior in such situations.

I hope that makes some sense. I'm not sure that I make sense to myself when I try to enter mind-bending philosophical discussions.

[littlemanpoet]

I think Celuien has answered rather well. Sauron's domination would have been complete, and long. Given Sauron's propensity for causing suffering in others, it would only have been a matter of time before he had thoroughly ruined the former Free Peoples and would have found it necessary to turn upon those who would have thought themselves relatively safe by having sworn allegiance to him.

Gandalf the White is an interesting case in point. Incarnated rather than free Maiar, he would have been subject to a fleshly death had his power been overcome. Had Frodo never gotten near the Crack of Doom, or had Gollum not fallen in, the Ringwraiths would likely have recovered the Ring there, and Sauron, his power redoubled, would have found Gandalf rather easy prey unless the Eagles rescued him.

The Eagles. These birds are understood as the Servants of Manwë, even in the Third Age, I believe. I can imagine that Gandalf and Aragorn and an assorted odd group of survivors might have been whisked off to some far flung place of impermanent and relative safety. Could they have done anything about Sauron the Dark Lord with the Ring? Doubtful.

And the Valar and Eru are correctly understood by Celuien, I'm thinking. A Dark Age it would have been.

[Farael]

And we are forgetting one little detail... The elves that had chosen to stay in Middle-Earth were still in love with the place. Sure, they'd leave if there was no other option, but wouldn't you fight if someone wants to take over your house? even if your neighbours offer you to stay at their place, it's just not the same. So that is the "danger" for the elves... as well as the very real fear that Sauron will be able to forcibly prevent them from leaving once he recovers The Ring.

Then, for all the "free people of middle earth" minus the elves, the danger and terror is as grave as it sounds. Neither humans of Numenorian descent, nor Dwarves nor cute little Hobbits would have been allowed in Valinor. The exceptions made were made after the war of the ring, and to those characters that were most influential in the outcome. So they would have been forced to endure a life as slaves or as outlaws, not fighting a loosing battle but fighting a lost battle.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The Eagles. These birds are understood as the Servants of Manwë, even in the Third Age, I believe. I can imagine that Gandalf and Aragorn and an assorted odd group of survivors might have been whisked off to some far flung place of impermanent and relative safety. Could they have done anything about Sauron the Dark Lord with the Ring? Doubtful.

Fascinating idea... An RPG or fanfic germ, perhaps?

Some sort of second Númenor from which the descendents of Aragorn would return to Middle-Earth with a massive avenging army, to take on a somewhat complacent Sauron and his atrophied armies, in the grand tradition of Tar-Calion?

Sorry about the tangent... I just had to say what an intriguing thought this would be. After all, if NOTHING can work in Eru's despite, it follows that Sauron must be defeated by some means, sometime- even if he were to recover the Ring. And what a very different scenario it would be...

[Smaug]

Thanks for the responses guys. Nevertheless it seems strange (we are getting into tricky ground here, analysing situations that Tolkien never gave any coverage for), that the few Elves or so that could have escaped to Valinor would have sat back and enjoyed the bliss while far over the waves Middle Earth was being enslaved and destroyed by the order of Sauron. Manwë and the Valar demonstrate their concern and care for the plight of Middle Earth through their sending of the Istari and even arguably to a latter extent, the Eagles that nest in Hithaeglir.

Of course the argument can be put forth that Eru Ilúvatar left the free peoples of Middle Earth to govern their own affairs since many of the Elves had originally refused the summons of the Valar and chosen to dwell in the Mortal Lands. Yet this does not apply to races such as Hobbits whom were presumably created as the Children of Ilúvatar and are vulnerable. Subsequently they are never mentioned to have inhabited Valinor or had any ties with it (open or secret). They never received such an offer from the Valar.

It is evident by the main themes of Tolkien that Ilúvatar himself would never intervene in ‘a spectacular fashion’ to break Sauron and all his servants, but there is evidence as mentioned above, to suggest that the Valar in the Blessed Realm did at the very least care for what happened in the Mortal Lands (including Middle Earth as the last remnant of it during the War of the Ring). Total dominance by Sauron and a new Middle Earth infested with evils with the children of Ilúvatar now completely corrupted and ruined, the assumption can be that Manwë would not have taken to this kindly, and may have sent his servants to intervene.

This all may seem impractical, I'm sure it does. However I find it wholly unimaginable that the Valar would just ignore the situation completely. It could be viewed as inhumane since although Númenor could be held accountable for the problems with the Ring and such, Hobbits for instance were entirely faultless. It may have even been possible that Sauron with ultimate sovereignty over Middle Earth may have become extremely arrogant and even have attempted to assail Valinor over the sea.

[Celuien]

While true that the Valar did care about what took place in Middle-earth, they too seemed disclined to drastic intervention. The Istari, while sent to aid the fight against Sauron, were forbidden to use their full power to defeat him independently, their role being to encourage the Free Peoples to fight him themselves. And the Valar only arrived to fight Morgoth after Earendil's pleas. So while they may be troubled by Sauron's theoretical domination, they don't seem likely to send a force to 'clean house,' as it were. Maybe they would retry sending emissaries like the Istari (though that plan initially had a 4/5 failure rate), but not directly coming to battle with Sauron.

As to Eru plans ultimately working in the end, I'm sure that they would have led to Sauron's eventual defeat, but only after considerable destruction and heartache. How it would have happened, I can't say.

Of course the argument can be put forth that Eru Ilúvatar left the free peoples of Middle Earth to govern their own affairs since many of the Elves had originally refused the summons of the Valar and chosen to dwell in the Mortal Lands. Yet this does not apply to races such as Hobbits whom were presumably created as the Children of Ilúvatar and are vulnerable. Subsequently they are never mentioned to have inhabited Valinor or had any ties with it (open or secret). They never received such an offer from the Valar.

The ability to govern their own affairs isn't so much related to the Elves refusing the Valar's summons as to an intrinsic gift from Eru. In fact, I think that the more vulnerable races were actually the ones given more freedom of choice. Being at work, I don't have my books with me right now, but I think there's a passage about Men (and Hobbits, by extension) being the only Children not bound by the Fate set by the Music at the beginning. Actually, my personal theory would be that the more choice available, the less willing the Valar might be to intervene, since they would be less sure of Eru's plans, though I'm not sure I can back this up textually.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Smaug

Hey guys,

I had a thought the other day. Obviously there was a certain necessity to get rid of the One Ring by destroying its threatening and callous power in the fires of Mount Doom.

Ya, I'd think so, O Smaug, esteemed Master of the Understatement.

Originally Posted by Smaug

However, for many in the book (characters and general inhabitants of Middle Earth) wasn't the situation blown out of proportion just a bit perhaps?

Blown out of proportion? How so? Slavery, torment, oppression, terror, murder, etc. would be the lot of every one who remained in Middle Earth, sooner or later. I don't see your argument.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Celuien

While true that the Valar did care about what took place in Middle-earth, they too seemed disclined to drastic intervention.

Particularly after the Valar laid down their guardianship/authority over the world after the Numenorean invasion. That act may have been permanent. Eru removed them from the world also, maybe the Valar were limited in what they could do for those very reasons

[drigel]

The ability to govern their own affairs isn't so much related to the Elves refusing the Valar's summons as to an intrinsic gift from Eru. In fact, I think that the more vulnerable races were actually the ones given more freedom of choice..... that the more choice available, the less willing the Valar might be to intervene, since they would be less sure of Eru's plans, though I'm not sure I can back this up textually.

Keep in mind also the theme of the downward cycle of direct diety/angelic involvement in ME, which parallels the rise of the dominance of men, who are outside of the music. Or, at least, not bound with the same fate as others within the music. The Vala arent perfect either, leaving a lot of loose ends unnoticed or unattended at the end of the 1st age. Sauron being the biggest oversight. Talk about unattended...even if Sauron was truly repentant, it does seem like a lackadaisical approached by the higher powers towards Sauron. And the wreck of Beleriand, much like Numenor, created a causality that resulted in a plateau, or a high water mark of direct involvement. Or was Numenor an added extension of a (although well intentioned) bad policy? Was it a gift, or did the Vala just feel guilty about the whole mess?

For one moment in time, Eru was involved very much with Sauron and with men, with the result of the drowning of a continent that was populated by thousands if not millions. I do wonder if the sinking of Numenor would have happened if Sauron was not physically on the island. Did that happen because of Sauron being there, or was that island doomed as soon as the Ar-Pharazon stepped foot upon the blessed shore?

[Smaug]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

Blown out of proportion? How so? Slavery, torment, oppression, terror, murder, etc. would be the lot of every one who remained in Middle Earth, sooner or later. I don't see your argument.

I thought I had given the wrong impression to a degree. In the reality of his works the whole issue of Sauron's victory and retrieval of the One Ring would have been gravely disastrous indeed and would have spelled slavery, torment, oppression, terror and murder for all of the free peoples you are right in saying. However I was just fascinated by the fact there was a path of escape at least and for some Elves, all was not at the end although that defies what they stood for as they would have adored Middle Earth and would have been reluctant to depart leaving it with oppression from the Dark Lord's instruction.

Also, I wasn't seeking an argument but wanted to circulate my ideas and thoughts.

[alatar]

It would be 'drama' for those that had to remain behind if Sauron reigned supreme. Those that weren't immediately killed and eaten would suffer years of torment. So, sure, if you were an elf with a boat ticket, all of that Dark Lord talk would be uninteresting, but if you were some lowly hobbit or human or dwarf...

And I would agree that not all elves would flee, and maybe they along with the help of others, would create some 'safe haven,' like we see in when Gondolin and much of ME is overrun by the forces of Morgoth (i.e. the Mouths of Sirion) that would spawn the new saviour/champion of the free folk. Like some wise person said, the stars are forever out of reach of the dark lords, and so there will always be some light somewhere.

And there's always the 'Bombadil' failsafe, where if things were to go hopelessly wrong our singing sleeper would get activated, then watch out Sauron!

What would happen if Sauron conquered all? Are we speaking just Middle Earth, or the entire bent-path world? Even if Sauron *could* control the entire world, the good folk still would have safe haven from which to continue the fight - Aman. And I think that Sauron, in stretching out his hands so far and so widely, would eventually fall.

Reading '1984,' I could think of many ways that such a system would fail, and so why not Sauron's darkness?

[littlemanpoet]

.... of sorts:

This discussion is akin to "what if Hitler had developed the bomb first?"

Fact is, he didn't. Tolkien's story turned out the way it did because, all players being who they were, all events turning how they did (seemingly extremely lucky), it could not have happened any other way. Sure, it's fun to speculate.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Fact is, he didn't. Tolkien's story turned out the way it did because, all players being who they were, all events turning how they did (seemingly extremely lucky), it could not have happened any other way. Sure, it's fun to speculate.

Don't think that we're playing the 'what-if' game here. Maybe the point of the thread is that Eru has a plan, and even if Saint Frodo failed, there would have been another mechanism that would have brought light back into Middle Earth. And so the elves, having seen all of this before, may have left ME knowing that Sauron would be thrown down some day, but didn't want to hang around for all of the ensuing messiness.

Not that I think that Eru encourages peoples to sit and wait for their own deliverance. He works with beings fighting the good fight.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Tolkien's story turned out the way it did because, all players being who they were, all events turning how they did (seemingly extremely lucky), it could not have happened any other way. Sure, it's fun to speculate.

Hmmm. hmmm. But is this the feeling readers have as they read along and even once they close the book? If it is, then where is the stunning sense of eucatastrophe? How can we experience this unexpected joy if we feel it was definitely going to happen this way all along? Surely at least in some measure the story makes us fear that this can happen 'another way' and therein lies the tension of the story.

I think this sense 'could not have happened any other way' has to arise after the fact, when thinking back over the story.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Hmmm. hmmm. But is this the feeling readers have as they read along and even once they close the book? If it is, then where is the stunning sense of eucatastrophe? How can we experience this unexpected joy if we feel it was definitely going to happen this way all along? Surely at least in some measure the story makes us fear that this can happen 'another way' and therein lies the tension of the story.

I think this sense 'could not have happened any other way' has to arise after the fact, when thinking back over the story.

Life's like that. We pass through it not knowing how things are going to be, and how often has it not been that you look back and know that it could not be any other way? Of course, there are plenty of instances that we look back and wish it could have been different....
So a reader will have the same experience; even, perhaps, wishing it could have been different in certain ways (like Sméagol repenting!).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Life's like that. We pass through it not knowing how things are going to be, and how often has it not been that you look back and know that it could not be any other way? Of course, there are plenty of instances that we look back and wish it could have been different....
So a reader will have the same experience; even, perhaps, wishing it could have been different in certain ways (like Sméagol repenting!).

Oh, I thought we were discussing sub-creation. And, for that matter, fairie.

As alatar said,

Don't think that we're playing the 'what-if' game here

I assume you are referring to Ilúvatar's words in Ainulindale but I could be wrong. Perhaps you can elaborate, alatar?

Originally Posted by Ilúvatar

he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

(It's an interesting touch, isn't it, how the archaic verb form is used to lend authority to his words.)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I assume you are referring to Ilúvatar's words in Ainulindale but I could be wrong. Perhaps you can elaborate, alatar?

Not sure what you're asking, and not exactly sure what I meant when I posted that (my brain gets erased each night for safety), but what I think that I was saying is that this post seems to be asking the question whether the hype over the One Ring and Sauron reclaiming the same was as dire as it would seem from the words of Gandalf and the other Wise Ones. Was the "your valor would be in vain" and "none can see his fall" or whatever was said both true in that Sauron ReRinged would overrun Gondor, but also untrue in that surely Eru's plan wasn't for an ever dark Middle Earth. Again, if you're a Gondorian pikeman at the Rammas Echor being attacked by Olog-hai, Eru's plan and eucatastrophe is not going to affect your next few minutes of existance, but on the whole, I think that Eru would have some saving throw in hand.

So we're not asking 'what if Sauron overran ME and reigned supreme forever' (and even decided to invade Aman) but that even though Sauron may regain the Ring and so possess ME, and though even Gandalf can not see his fall, Eru's plan does not have ME in eternal thralldom. There's always hope, not for any specific individuals or institutions (well, except maybe Tinúviel-spawn), but in knowing that Eru has it all worked out for his greater glory.

(It's an interesting touch, isn't it, how the archaic verb form is used to lend authority to his words.)

Didn't know that It posted here. Anyway, will start using that verb form in more office communications .

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Oh, I thought we were discussing sub-creation. And, for that matter, fairie.

Hah hah. I was. The apparently hidden point of my post was that fairie and sub-creation are best when they are most like real life, while having that special something.... but this minor point has gotten way off topic, so I'll shut up now.

[Rhod the Red]

"wasn't the situation blown out of proportion just a bit perhaps?"

How? Sauron had attacked Gondor after making the One Ring simply because the Elven Smiths stopped communicating with him.

It was an unprovocked assult. Plus, once driven out of Dol Guldor, he began massing his armies again. Was there a chance for peace? Well, did he offer one? Remember the scene at the black gate with the Mouth of Sauron. He asserted that the West had attacked Morder and demanded the West accept occupation.

Sauron had already been raiding Ithilian, an act of aggression post-War of the Ring 1. unless you accept his view that he owned Ithillian. therefore it was legitamite for Gondor to strike back after being assulted at osgiliath and finally the capital Minas Tirith. Even at the Black Gate, Aragorn offered a chance for negotiation. But the Mouth of Sauron rejected it, offering a proposal that no rational leader would accept in the first place.

The West had been assulted in the first Ring War, and the second at Ithilian and then Osgiliath. What else were the Gondorians to do? Remember that the Dwarves at the Lonely Mountain get assulted, and Lothlorien. Frodo sees it when at the falls of Rauros wearing the Ring.

So no, nothing was blown out of proportion.