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Old 03-26-2014, 04:42 AM   #241
Ivriniel
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.....I didn't read all ur post right.

Yes, generally, its Elmo, younger bro of the freak Elu, who is, I think grandson of Elmo who is grandsire of Celeborn (another freak). Placing, as you note Elmo as a more distant relative of Galadriel (still in bred. So Irdil, get a life and deal with it). But, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, there's a very late essay, written by Tolkien, and a month before his death, noting that Celeborn--known also as Teleporno-very unfortunate phonetic (Telep-orno 'silver tree' is okay, but you get my drift). On Alqualonde, the essay points out that They share the same granddaddy. Creepy. And explicitly points out their exemption from the Kinslaying, and notes they made no anti-Mandos-y vow thing, nabbed a boat, got to Beleriand ahead of Feanor (Galadriel's 'unfriend forever'), and fought "valiantly" against the Kinslaying and made another of those stupid "I'm your enemy forever" promises to thwart cousin Feanor, for Feanor's freak show and murderous impulses.

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Old 03-26-2014, 05:02 AM   #242
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Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them. Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:13 AM   #243
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Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them.
I laughed out in a roar!

*note to self* I suppose silver hair would add a splash of head turning and so, the alpha elven bois get a bit of leeway to allow some of their crappy behaviour. Still Galadriel smelled of dwarves (I mean, she loved Khazad Dum and sang dwarf songs with them...Did that make her short?) and Celeborn didn't ditch her, even though he vomited tacks and his head turned at the sight of a dwarf.

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Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....
I mean, daddy made black swords out of meteorites (remember that bit about Beleg and one of Eol's swords) that he learned to forge from Dwarves for Eru's sake! Now Idril must have thought that cous really was all a bit weird! I mean, what use is a black sword at an elfy feast where Silmaril-y songs about the Drip and the Canary (being charitable) are told!
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:37 AM   #244
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[lighthearted] hahaha I hear ya - it's okay for Galadriel, isn't it! She can marry her cousin, (well, second cousin--but if you're gunna split hairs, Tolkien, really, Galadriel and Celeborn shared their grandfather in Olwe of Alqulonde, in an essay he wrote, one month before his death. His last work, in fact).
This illustrates my 'canon considerations': late-has-weight fails for me here, utterly, as Celeborn the Teler of Swanhaven contradicts author-published description. And we know Tolkien's memory was not 'retentive' in his later years, nor do we have any indication here that he was aware [at the time of writing] that he was stepping on already published material, and didn't mind.

Plus, if it helps, that gets rid of Teleporno the unfortunate name [by association] as there is no need for a Sinda of Beleriand to have a formerly Telerin name.

Or at least, maybe Telporno is better [not Teleporno], which occurs in a very late letter dated December 1972 [the very very late adumbrated tale as paraphrased employs Celeborn I think]. The loss of the vowel in question might possibly be due to syncope...

... although a trained linguist me is not

Also, in general for the thread, maybe the history falls in step with the idea that Elves matured at about the same rate as Men.

Sorry
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:41 AM   #245
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Well with his background a "We need to talk about Maeglin" situation was perhaps always going to be a possibility. Galadriel was said to be tallest of elven womem estimated at 6"4 and Celeborn of like height. Maybe not exceptional for an elf man though the Teleri were meant to be generally less tall than the Noldo..though the most prominent Thingol, Círdan, Celeborn are all described as tall. Who knows, maybe they are being sarcastic (cf Celeborn the Wise ), maybe it is a euphemism
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:46 AM   #246
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I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....

And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course...
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:52 AM   #247
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snip<--utterly-->snip
That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?

Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy.

Though, really, I'm not utterly utterly-est sure he (Tolkien) was so void of neuronal integrity at 73 that he would have forgotten good ole crazy alpha boi Celeborn and all that!

The distinct lineage, of Alqualonde carries some weight, imo, coz Galdriel (even as feanor's unfriend forever) was one of the Great-est uber-est. Even ranked as nigh to Feanor......so.....I've always been uncomfortable with her partnering a Teleri who never saw The Trees. It seems to me that Teleporno, for that reason, and of such high lineage, made a better match.

[edit]do u have Tolkien's ct and fMRI scans handy? Post em and let's see how much grey matter was left [/edit]

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Old 03-26-2014, 06:04 AM   #248
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I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....

And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course...


When you invent a time machine (and someone helps out with a parallel universe thing), I'll put Turgon on Ritalin to calm him down when Eol comes into Gondolin.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:04 AM   #249
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Incidentally, if one is dealing with the 3,000 concept, while the rate to maturity seems to have diminished in Middle-earth over time, I interpret that it remained constant in Aman however. So for those Elves born in Aman, 3,000 actual years must fit [again unless Tolkien was thinking of changing the Annals to reflect this new idea, as it doesn't seemingly work that well for all events, the flight of the Noldor for example].

Tolkien makes it somewhat 'easy' however, as an Elf of 20 Valian Years is almost 3,000 years old. So for Aman the numbers will seem like a normal enough human period, by comparison. That is, if Galadriel seems to be an adult, around 20 'years' old at least, let's say, according to something in the tale, that's still enough real time.

Arwen half-elven was married when she was about this age, in Valian Years that is, or Elvish Long Years [since they are equivalent using 144].
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:17 AM   #250
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That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?

Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy.
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. Am I sure Tolkien himself published that Celeborn was a Sindarin Elf?

Yes twice; although one mention fell out in the second edition.

This late version also contradicts Galadriel's role in the Rebellion in The Road Goes Ever On. And while not an impossible thing to explain, it makes me wonder why Celeborn, if 'really' from Aman that is, seemed not to want to part with Galadriel when he remained, for a time, in Middle-earth.

He didn't want to go back to Swanhaven 'so soon'? Ahem. Possibly, but it seems odd...

... and even when Tolkien spoke to why Celeborn remained for a time, part of his statement [in an letter that does not appear in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien but was published by Hammond and Scull] included that Celeborn had never been to Aman.
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:02 AM   #251
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On an aside, I'm sorry, but how on Valinor can Maeglin be a 'Dark Elf'. The text says "he was kinsman of Thingol of Doriath!" And bangs on, several times, about Eol being proudly Telerin, cross, bothered and spitting chips about all the Noldor-ish Elfy things ruining his Telerin party. Though, he has dark hair! Ha? Telerin, and all that!
Do you mean Eol, or Maeglin? If Eol he was not only a Dark-elf as in 'one of those who had not experienced the light of Valinor' but I think he was called the Dark Elf because he desired the deep shadow of the forest, loving the night and the twilight.

He was called Sun-shy at one point in the tale.

Other dark associations that might be made: it was said that Eol would go abroad clad, in some measure, in galvorn (black and shining like jet) for example.

Melian also referred to the dark heart of the Smith when describing one of his works.
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:22 AM   #252
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hahaha

I did love reading about Aredhel in Valinor. She was a really gung-ho, strong woman, and pretty gutsy.
Sorry no; with Aredhel I always got the impression that she was a ridiculous prima donna and a "tomboy wannabe" and only went riding and hunting with Feanor's sons because she enjoyed the attention they gave her. "Hey there Celegorm, I won't give you my heart! But feel free to get me some mead while I relax here."
Just remember that later she was to a degree forced into marriage with Eol and took ages to escape.
My mental picture of Aredhel:
http://postimg.org/image/f8voa24b1/

With Maeglin I somewhat agree: Why is okay for Aredhel to fool around with the sons of Feanor (her cousins) but Maeglin can't have Idril?
That being said, Idril did NOT want to marry Maeglin, so it makes the whole point moot. Turgon clearly loved and cherished Maeglin and Morgoth had to use his strongest mind control and torture on Maeglin to get him to betray Gondolin.

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Old 03-26-2014, 11:20 AM   #253
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I do not believe Maeglin was ever tortured, only threatened with it, & it seems he in some part actively decided to betray the Elves of Gondolin if he could have Idril to himself.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:29 PM   #254
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I do not believe Maeglin was ever tortured, only threatened with it, & it seems he in some part actively decided to betray the Elves of Gondolin if he could have Idril to himself.
Oh really? I could have sworn in at least one version he got mind controlled/tortured, though that might have really been just an abandoned idea (in the Lost Tales perhaps?) or me remembering stuff wrong.

Well then, **** Maeglin, the sniveling traitor, who's dumb enough to believe that Melkor would grant him freedom let alone Idril. Let's hope he never gets out of Mandos.
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:15 PM   #255
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In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:32 PM   #256
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In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].
Ah yes, thank you that's what I remembered. Of course there was no spell of bottomless dread in the later stories. I'm a huge fan of the BoLT version of the mythology so I sometimes get the two version mixed up.
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:54 PM   #257
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I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men


After this I tend to place precedent on things that Christopher Tolkien himself has published. He alone was left with sole authority to print, publish and edit what was left with the notes. Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.

The I take into account what Tolkien's last thoughts were on a matter as long as it does not contradict the first two precedents. However, I am not quick to dismiss detailed essays on brief notes, which at can be ambiguous at best.
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:08 PM   #258
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Do you mean Eol, or Maeglin? If Eol he was not only a Dark-elf as in 'one of those who had not experienced the light of Valinor' but I think he was called the Dark Elf because he desired the deep shadow of the forest, loving the night and the twilight.

He was called Sun-shy at one point in the tale.

Other dark associations that might be made: it was said that Eol would go abroad clad, in some measure, in galvorn (black and shining like jet) for example.

Melian also referred to the dark heart of the Smith when describing one of his works.
Eol -- makes sense here ...
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:11 PM   #259
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Concerning the aging of the Dunedain we have some information about this in the LOTR. Aragorn at 20 years old was considered early come into manhood and still had not reached complete maturity.

"Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he had early come into manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and mind."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen


Slightly before this we are given some indication about when maidens were regarded as old enough to wed. Gilraen, Aragorn's mother, was believed too young and was below the standard age of a Dunedain bride. In fact she was so young her father was going to refuse to let the marriage take place.

"To this marriage Dirhael was opposed; for Gilraen was young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dunedain were accustomed to marry."-Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

From previous date we learn that Gilraen was born in the Third Age 2907. She wed Arathron in the Third Age 2929. We can estimate what she was either 22 or 21 at this point and considered below the general age of marirage.

If we look at the works that Tolkien did not publish we have the case of Aldarion. Aldarion only comes into manhood and full responsibility at the age of 25.

Veantur speaking to his grandson says this.

" Anardilya, the spring is drawing nigh and also the day of your full age' (for in that April Aldarion would be twenty-five years old)."
-Unfinished Tales, Aldarion and Erendis

Looking at the evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that Tolkien intended for the Dunedain to reach full maturity at 25 and this would be the age where they would be acknowledged and full accepted as an adult. It also appears to be the age where they would usually be permitted to marry.

On the point of Gondorian kings having a beard, it has been many generations since Elros. We know that Elves such as Cirdan and Mahatar were supposed to have beards. The only extensive writing Tolkien had on the subject had Elves growing beards in the third part of their life. I tend to assume that either the kings of Gondor tended to finally grow beards very late in life or that after so many generations some had lost this quality.
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:15 PM   #260
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Sorry no; with Aredhel I always got the impression that she was a ridiculous prima donna and a "tomboy wannabe" and only went riding and hunting with Feanor's sons because she enjoyed the attention they gave her. "Hey there Celegorm, I won't give you my heart! But feel free to get me some mead while I relax here."
Just remember that later she was to a degree forced into marriage with Eol and took ages to escape.
My mental picture of Aredhel:
http://postimg.org/image/f8voa24b1/

With Maeglin I somewhat agree: Why is okay for Aredhel to fool around with the sons of Feanor (her cousins) but Maeglin can't have Idril?
That being said, Idril did NOT want to marry Maeglin, so it makes the whole point moot. Turgon clearly loved and cherished Maeglin and Morgoth had to use his strongest mind control and torture on Maeglin to get him to betray Gondolin.
HAHAHAH bring it! fun post. I suppose I take ur point, I mean, what was she doing in Valinor, all that horse-y Orome, whatever stuff. I'm seeing a white wedding-dress like outfit on a Shadow-faxy horse thing. And ah, dah Aredhel - um what the! Wearing WHITE whilst fleeing Eol with Maeglin, as she's heading for the outer gate of Gondolin in all that creepy dark vale stuff. With Ungoliant-y creatures everywhere. Yes, nice camouflage choice Aredhel!

Yes, Maeglin was pretty okay, with grand-daddy, despite the whole cliff-throwing episode. He was loyal, hardy in battle and pretty good to Turgon. And, really Tolkien? You're going to point fingers at Maeglin for having power-motives in Gondolin, where granddaddy had everything in lock down! Oh let me guess - only Noldorin 'princes' (precious) could dispossess the Teleri in Beleriand, and of course, that's all okay. Yes, the whole of Arda was just for Elvendom.

Seriously, it must have grated the Nandor, Sindar and Silvan Elves (and Tolkien says as much in several stories) to have their world run over by raging Noldor, after a Kinslaying - OMG - just to track down some stupid jewels.

Now, if that's not precious, what is?
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:21 PM   #261
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I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men


After this I tend to place precedent on things that Christopher Tolkien himself has published. He alone was left with sole authority to print, publish and edit what was left with the notes. Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.

The I take into account what Tolkien's last thoughts were on a matter as long as it does not contradict the first two precedents. However, I am not quick to dismiss detailed essays on brief notes, which at can be ambiguous at best.
Nice points.

I add though, that what JRRT did at his death bed goes to narrative intention, and as such, I'm not partial to dismissing his will on matters of narrative purpose and about what is a position on textual pre-eminence.

That is, just because he had some forgetfulness, late in his life, what right does Chris have to unmake ( an 'un' word) his father's intention for Celeborn (Teleporno). Again, does it make sense that Galadriel, for example, would marry a Telerin sub-lord of Doriath more than grandfather Olwe's Eldar who had seen the Light of Aman?
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:36 PM   #262
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Finally on the topic of Elvish maturity.

I will first address the brief note that we have in the Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien says that the Eldar aged much the same way as the Numenoreans.

"Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' they then aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly."-Unfinished Tales, Line of Elros.

This comment here certainly implies that Elves and Men aged MUCH the same and would certainly dismiss the notion of the Eldar taking 3000 years to mature. However, what does Tolkien mean by 'much the same'? Is an elf taking 50 years to mature, a Hobbit taking 33 years and a Dunedain taking 33 years that different? Without any further elaboration I am not convinced that this is enough to dismiss the detailed essay he wrote about Elvish aging.

I am unaware of any other source we have from Christopher Tolkien, which further addresses the issue except for 'Laws and Customs' and the part in the Children of Hurin.

The Children of Hurin was compiled much later than even the HOME. Christopher Tolkien had even more time to evaluate his fathers notes and take out things he did not think would quite fit.

Christopher Tolkien also tells us that Tolkien completed most of the Children of Hurin after the publication of LOTR.

"By far the greater part of this work, if not all of it, belongs to the time following the actual publication of The Lord of the Rings. In those years the Children of Hurin became for him the dominant story of the Elder Days, and for a long time he devoted all his thought to it."-The Children of Hurin, Appendix

As we can see the quote Hurin and Sabdor supports a similarity between the maturity of Elves and Men, but the Elves having the long childhood.

Personally I think it's a very big jump to assume that Tolkien dismissed the idea of Elves maturing at 50 given Christopher Tolkien never commenting on this one note. It becomes an even bigger stretch when we see how the mortal (an ultimately descendant from Man) Hobbits have evolved to reach full maturity at 33.
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Old 03-26-2014, 10:12 PM   #263
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I think there are three main points I need to address. The first is my personal way of trying to decipher what Tolkien left us. I put much more weight on Christopher Tolkien's words than some do. However, these are how I tend to come my conclusions.

1. Works published by JRR Tolkien.
2. Works published by Christopher Tolkien
3. The latest workable notes that don't contradict 1 or 2.

Christopher Tolkien knew his father and his father's works infinitely better than any of us can ever hope to do. Knowing his father he said this about his father's desire to stick with things he himself had published.

When discussing the descent of Celebrimbor, he wrote this about a late note placing him as a Teleri.

"no doubt he had forgotten that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would have undoubtedly have felt bound by it."-HOME XII 'Of Dwarves and Men
I don't feel one has to know Tolkien at all to think that he would probably abide by the story in print. Even if he 'wouldn't' I think he should, as 'in print' concerns the art of subcreation. He didn't all the time, but to my mind the general concern is consistency with already published description, so as to not undermine the Subcreated World.

I often give great weight to Christopher Tolkien's opinion too, but HME clearly illustrates that he did not know very many things, despite his relationship with both his father and his father's works. And with respect to what Christopher Tolkien published as a story -- I mean he published HME and UT as well -- I see no indication that these versions were intended as 'canon', or as any ultimate statement that they represent what Tolkien desired.

For example Christopher Tolkien knew the Helm of Hador was intended to have more 'ink' and presence in the Narn, but I think it's fairly clear that he chose not to write it in because there simply wasn't enough Tolkien-written text to employ -- enough for the amount CJRT desired anyway.

Is that a reason to accept that Turin wore a Dwarf-mask when facing Glaurung, over the Helm, because JRRT didn't get around to writing 'enough' about the Helm for Christopher Tolkien to feel he could easily incorporate the idea [by trying to be more editor than 'writer' I would say]? Not for me anyway. Or do you have an alternative theory about why CJRT chose the Dwarf-mask for the constructed Narn?

I don't think it is in Christopher Tolkien's character to stamp these versions as anything that should outweigh his father's actual texts, and I don't think that's the point in constructing them. He certainly was given authority by Tolkien to edit and publish, but that isn't the same as claiming the one volume versions should have authority over his father's work.


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Christopher Tolkien himself says it is impossible to have a definitive version of his fathers legendarium, but I give more credence to something he has published unless he explicitly states it to be a mistake.
Of course it is impossible, but 'mistakes' by whom? And since it was impossible to incorporate every last known idea into a one volume 'consistent' version, is it a 'mistake' not to include the longer history of the Helm of Hador for example? Or not to alter Sador -- as Tolkien intended to change this character notably, into one of the Druedain if I recall correctly. Certainly not mistakes in my opinion.

Christopher Tolkien has never, to my knowledge, pretended to be or desired to be the creator of Middle-earth, but rather he desired to provide a version of these tales for readers. That is, he could at least give readers the intended 'format' or experience, if not his father's ultimate version. And then he showed us the texts behind his constructions, in HME, with a very different, more scholarly presentation of the material he had to work with.


In any case, the matter is still not simple, which was my point. You can give your opinions on 'canon' and why you put the constructed Narn and L&C above other texts, and others will take a different approach.

So still more complicated than taking L&C alone as a given, which was my point

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Old 03-26-2014, 10:25 PM   #264
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I am unaware of any other source we have from Christopher Tolkien, which further addresses the issue except for 'Laws and Customs' and the part in the Children of Hurin.
Well there's the Tolkien-written note from VT. We have that from CJRT too, as he gave it to the editors of VT to publish.

And in my opinion 50 years, or for some 100 years [let's not forget], is different enough to me. You can paint it a 'big jump' as you like, or call it an 'assumption' that Tolkien dismissed the idea...

... but you can't claim you know for sure that L&C is a given here.
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Old 03-27-2014, 05:25 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Finally on the topic of Elvish maturity.

I will first address the brief note that we have in the Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien says that the Eldar aged much the same way as the Numenoreans.

"Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' they then aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly."-Unfinished Tales, Line of Elros.

This comment here certainly implies that Elves and Men aged MUCH the same and would certainly dismiss the notion of the Eldar taking 3000 years to mature. However, what does Tolkien mean by 'much the same'? Is an elf taking 50 years to mature, a Hobbit taking 33 years and a Dunedain taking 33 years that different? Without any further elaboration I am not convinced that this is enough to dismiss the detailed essay he wrote about Elvish aging.
But did anyone say "Laws and Customs" should be "dismissed", anyway? I thought the question was whether it can be considered the final word on the subject. Not the same thing.

Quote:
I am unaware of any other source we have from Christopher Tolkien, which further addresses the issue except for 'Laws and Customs' and the part in the Children of Hurin.

The Children of Hurin was compiled much later than even the HOME. Christopher Tolkien had even more time to evaluate his fathers notes and take out things he did not think would quite fit.

Christopher Tolkien also tells us that Tolkien completed most of the Children of Hurin after the publication of LOTR.
We've been through this before, I think? I have the greatest respect for Christopher Tolkien's judgement regarding his father's work, but to not to the extent of treating him as some kind of high priest of Tolkienicity. -And yes, that's hyperbole and not meant literally- but honestly, cellurdur, you're pinning so much on his editorial decisions that it almost comes to that.

Also, there is what I said earlier: Sador's words point to *a* difference- but is it the one in "Laws and Customs"? Or something else again? I don't think there's any way of telling for sure.

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Personally I think it's a very big jump to assume that Tolkien dismissed the idea of Elves maturing at 50 given Christopher Tolkien never commenting on this one note. It becomes an even bigger stretch when we see how the mortal (an ultimately descendant from Man) Hobbits have evolved to reach full maturity at 33.
I, for my part, assume nothing of the kind. However, the bare fact that he may
have done so casts doubt on the whole line of reasoning based on Dior/Earendil/Elwing's ages- which was the original point. For that matter just the fact that it's not the *only* version does that.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:07 PM   #266
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But did anyone say "Laws and Customs" should be "dismissed", anyway? I thought the question was whether it can be considered the final word on the subject. Not the same thing.
Exactly. What you have to understand about LACE is that (per C. Tolkien who has some weight or doesn't have weight depending on the lunar cycle) it was written by men and not the Eldar; therefore it is a retelling of ancient lore, so there is an accuracy issue from the start, considering what we know about chroniclers adding or deleting information to suit their needs and prejudices. One only has to look at Beowulf, a poem Tolkien cherished, to know that it was a pagan tract rewritten with a Christian patina many years later and not by the same hand(s).

In addition, Tolkien abandoned the whole idea of using Aelfwine as transmitter of Elvish tales in favor of Bilbo Baggins' Red Book Of Westmarch, but then it seems he may have reconsidered later when compiling the Narn i Hîn Húrin. In any case, the entire LACE section would need to be edited and changed, and Tolkien never went back to it. It obviously was not a pressing item in his agenda, and as C. Tolkien admitted it was "sometimes obscure, and tantalising in its obscurity" -- which it certainly is.

Finally, as nearly as I can tell, Tolkien never adjusted anything timewise in his chronologies to account for changes he made according to LACE, nor does any quotes I've seen from either Galin or Cellardur indicated a fixed time for maturity of Elves (or, more importantly, Half-elves); in fact, Tolkien bounces back and forth throughout his life from something as outlandish as 3000 years right down to the same as mortal men. As Galin pointed out, the last mention from Tolkien indicated they aged relatively the same.

It is variable and certainly not definitive. It is not canon in the sense that Sauron created the One Ring and Gollum destroyed It and himself in Mount Doom.

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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
We've been through this before, I think? I have the greatest respect for Christopher Tolkien's judgement regarding his father's work, but to not to the extent of treating him as some kind of high priest of Tolkienicity. -And yes, that's hyperbole and not meant literally- but honestly, cellurdur, you're pinning so much on his editorial decisions that it almost comes to that.

Also, there is what I said earlier: Sador's words point to *a* difference- but is it the one in "Laws and Customs"? Or something else again? I don't think there's any way of telling for sure.
Sador's quote is not definitive:

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Does the youth of Men pass soon? Without a doubt. Like I stated previously, considering that up to the most recent times, mortal men died very early, women even earlier (depending on how many children they bore, they were lucky to get past 30). Throw in the plague or even an infected tooth, and death was swift. So they married very early as well, mid-teens was common. The historical record as far back as the Biblical Hebrews indicates very early marriages (betrothal being at 12 1/2 years-old). Tolkien the scholar would be most aware of this information, even without the interwebz.

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Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
I, for my part, assume nothing of the kind. However, the bare fact that he may
have done so casts doubt on the whole line of reasoning based on Dior/Earendil/Elwing's ages- which was the original point. For that matter just the fact that it's not the *only* version does that.
A jury of one's peers could not convict with the reasonable doubt spread in and out and all about.

But the real question is...did Half-elves have Balrogs wings? And did they sprout them when they grew beards?
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:37 PM   #267
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It [L&C] is variable and certainly not definitive. It is not canon in the sense that Sauron created the One Ring and Gollum destroyed It and himself in Mount Doom.
I agree. And 'canon' for me is author-published stuff. That doesn't mean I ignore the legends of the Elder Days of course, but that's a more complicated issue.


Quote:
What you have to understand about LACE is that (per C. Tolkien who has some weight or doesn't have weight depending on the lunar cycle) it was written by men and not the Eldar; therefore it is a retelling of ancient lore, so there is an accuracy issue from the start, considering what we know about chroniclers adding or deleting information to suit their needs and prejudices. One only has to look at Beowulf, a poem Tolkien cherished, to know that it was a pagan tract rewritten with a Christian patina many years later and not by the same hand(s).
That's true but I'm not sure why Elfwine would necessarily be considered wrong about a given something, unless we have more of an internal reason to question him. I mean, what you say is arguably built in, I guess, but when it comes to specific ideas the reader, if told 50 or 100 let's say, would probably take this as 'the best he or she can know' -- again, unless something else internal shakes the notion somewhat.

The Eressean orc-origin idea was internally delivered as a belief for instance, but should the reader question the Wise of Eressea? And even if we did, if Tolkien himself had published this 'origin' alone, we might wonder a bit but in the end would still probably be noting this origin as 'fact', at least as far as what appears in the 'true' legendarium that is.

In general, Elfwine was supposed to get his information rather directly from Eresseans, which is actually the 'more reliable' [in my opinion] transmission compared to the later idea.

I'm going on memory here, but I think the role of Elfwine possibly 'survived' in text until the later 1950s, around the time of L&C. Certainly The Lord of the Rings first edition was published before this of course, but I would have to check the first edition 'transmission references' compared to the second edition to say anything possibly meaningful about that.

That said, and not that you said or think otherwise, but the loss of Elfwine might only mean we need a new 'internal author' with some niggling to reflect this...

... but that said too, there seems to be notions within L&C that were revised, or arguably were, or are at least a bit questionable. For example, even the naming customs appear to have been revised according to Christopher Tolkien [compared to the shorter text on naming from the later The Shibbolerh of Feanor]. But I wonder if the 'missing' Chosen-name of the Noldor, for instnce, is only missing due to brevity, and the consideration that it doesn't seem to be a custom among the other Eldar in any case.

But certainly I agree that L&C awaited revision if it was to become part of the author-published legendarium.


Quote:
Finally, as nearly as I can tell, Tolkien never adjusted anything timewise in his chronologies to account for changes he made according to LACE, nor does any quotes I've seen from either Galin or Cellardur indicated a fixed time for maturity of Elves (or, more importantly, Half-elves); in fact, Tolkien bounces back and forth throughout his life from something as outlandish as 3000 years right down to the same as mortal men.
There is a note from CJRT that seems to say he thinks his father means, at one point anyway [from something in a text], that one can just 'plug in' 144 Sun Years and employ the old dates that were witten with the much smaller ratio [almost 10] in mind.

And while that works to drastically lengthen the years concerned, for instance from the Awakening of the Quendi [which gives much more time for 3,000 years to maturity to begin to dwindle] to the Rebellion, it just doesn't seem to work in all places, as the flight of the Noldor would take notably long, if I recall correctly.

Quote:
As Galin pointed out, the last mention from Tolkien indicated they aged relatively the same.
Well with Tolken one never knows

But I would be surprised if anything turned up about Elven ageing that could certainly be dated after Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals.

At the moment I'm not sure what text is later than the other: the one that represents 50 [some 100], or 3,000 but dwindling in Middle-earth; or the citation from the Line of Elros actually. I'm not sure it's possible to even know between these examples, but I haven't looked at the external dating recently.

By the way I do remember it was someone at Barow Downs who opened my eyes to the possibility [and in my opinion probability] that the notion was 3,000 and dwindling in Middle-earth...

... it was years ago now, but thanks to that person
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:05 AM   #268
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I just truly influenced by his hairstyle..It looks merely attractive and elegant too..I have never seen such an electrifying personality like him...I also wanna share some more ideas dig this
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:14 AM   #269
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:08 AM   #270
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Well I do have nice hair... I mean no bird droppings in it whatsoever, for example.

Wait... 'merely' attractive? Why thank you Beth [if I may call you Beth]... I think
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